Would you call this protecting the field? Would you call it fair?

[Greenie]

I've read a lot of these sandbagging threads and usually I'm not all in agreement with someone accused of sandbagging because my handicap is usually around 90 but I am more focused when I am playing for something and can pull of a low 80 or 80 round easily. Because of this I don't even like to play in anything because of all the sandbagging comments I hear when I do a lot better than my cap. In this case pulling off a 76 would be a miracle for me and my best round ever. Even I might say no way with that score. I think they did the right thing except that he should have been playing with players in his new flight.

[DavePelz4]

The city senior event for our town has been fraught with sandbagging to the point of where it took -20 or better to win a 2 round net event the last few years. The number of players dropped by half because of this.

 

One of the "gentlemen" who won the event a couple of years back shot net 61 and 63 over the 2 rounds as a 14 handicap. Because of the unusual scores, his index was adjusted down post event to a 7.8 and he was given the dreaded "R" designation. As this event is approaching again I looked at his index today and lo and behold, he is back up to a 13.8, just in time for tournament play.

 

Well done Robert! Looks like you got the bag filled up again!

[DavePelz4]

I've read a lot of these sandbagging threads and usually I'm not all in agreement with someone accused of sandbagging because my handicap is usually around 90 but I am more focused when I am playing for something and can pull of a low 80 or 80 round easily. Because of this I don't even like to play in anything because of all the sandbagging comments I hear when I do a lot better than my cap. In this case pulling off a 76 would be a miracle for me and my best round ever. Even I might say no way with that score. I think they did the right thing except that he should have been playing with players in his new flight.

 

It's one thing to post the occasional score in the 70's as a 10-15 but if you never post a score below 85 and then knock out back to back 75's, it does look a bit suspicious. Not directing this at you personally but using your post as a foundation.

[Cancun]

I don’t know this guy, but “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…” I’m pretty sure it’s a sandbagging duck.

 

There is this “pope of slope” page with the odds of shooting an Exceptional Tournament Score and there’s also Appendix E of the USGA Handicap Manual with a score probability table. I would certainly figure his differential for those rounds and use those tables to have a better idea of where he is.

 

In my opinion, if the player registers to C flight, that is his competition. If his handicap is not the one for that flight he is DQ’d. The fact that there is another tournament taking place at the same course for the B flight is irrelevant (to me). He didn’t register for that (flight B) tournament, so he can’t play it (forget about winning it!).

 

He signed in for the wrong flight and that should be penalized. Sending him to where he should have been from day one is not a penalty. The problem is that some other dudes look that nothing happens, so they do the same for the next tournament and that’s a never ending story. If you DQ a player who does that, the message is clear to him and the rest of the players as well.

 

Just my 0.02 ;)

His scoring average for the year, in those tournament competitions, was a 92.5 prior to the competition in question. His cap index was at 14.8. He signed in for the proper flight. There is no DQ for signing up for the wrong one.

 

What it sounds like is they are only calculating cap (index) based on the tournaments played in their events. If so, shame on them for not taking other rounds into account. If he only played those events, and not any other rounds (unlikely) his cap would be based on the low round alone (he has 6 scores) which is an 87. To me it sounds like the "tournament committee" has a fuzzy way of calculating handicap. And when that happens, it always leads to issues. Calc'ing from only those tournament scores doesn't give a full picture and leaves the door open for an exceptional round.

 

You say that the Committee has a fuzzy way of calculating handicap. I don’t know if they calculated that handicap or not. They do have to make sure that there are no handicap related problems during the competition.

 

Having a player in the C flight with a 14.8 index score a 76 means problems. The handicap is supposed to indicate a player’s skill. Almost every player has scored under his / her handicap and that is fine. The problem comes when you have someone scoring 5, 8 or more than 10 strokes under their skill (as it seems to be the case). That doesn’t happen. Anything more than 3 strokes under is worth looking at. We don’t know the differential for those rounds, but once again: If I were on that Committee I would see how many strokes under his supposed skill it was and go from there. Most likely the player would have been DQ’d.

 

Maybe he’s not cheating, but then the fact is that his handicap index is not correct. Not statistically speaking, at least. The Committee usually works with numbers and I would DQ a player with a skill that does not qualify (in statistical terms) to the tournament (flight) being played.

 

As for moving a player to a lower flight because of a great score, I feel it’s like telling sandbaggers that they can try… and if we get them we’ll just move them to where they belong. I prefer telling them that they belong outside the competition, not in a lower flight.

 

Hey: that's just me... Numbers say that his index is wrong... and I like numbers ;)

[vtnerf]

I said they might. Some tournament series and like event organizers calc their own caps. I don't like that, don't think it's a good idea, and think it's a terrible way to organize a competition. It also lends itself to "outlandish" rounds.

 

That being said, a guy who posts a career round shouldn't automatically be dubbed a bagger. At some point in every golfers career they have to post a career low round. It may be by a shot or two, it may be more. It may be lowered in the future as they improve. It may be in the past, and maybe they caught lightning in a bottle for one final round to get back to the glory days. Good rounds should be celebrated and applauded. There aren't any odds that can fit every golfer...but even when odds are applied, theres always a chance it could occur.

[North Butte]

I said they might. Some tournament series and like event organizers calc their own caps. I don't like that, don't think it's a good idea, and think it's a terrible way to organize a competition. It also lends itself to "outlandish" rounds.

 

That being said, a guy who posts a career round shouldn't automatically be dubbed a bagger. At some point in every golfers career they have to post a career low round. It may be by a shot or two, it may be more. It may be lowered in the future as they improve. It may be in the past, and maybe they caught lightning in a bottle for one final round to get back to the glory days. Good rounds should be celebrated and applauded. There aren't any odds that can fit every golfer...but even when odds are applied, theres always a chance it could occur.

 

The one thing that stands out to me in the original story here is that this guy has apparently posted consistent TOURNAMENT rounds in the 90's. That sounds like a lot of trouble to go to, blowing more than one previous tournament with rounds that won't even place in the hacker flight, just in an elaborate long-con attempt to sandbag for this year's tournament.

 

But maybe I got the wrong end of the original story and those weren't in prior tournaments. The more I think about it, the more it sounds like the tournament organizers might be 'capping based on the "notebook" method. I've seen groups that do their own shade tree handicapping by keeping a book of tournament results and using those instead of USGA indices.

 

If it's a high variance player with only a handful of rounds in the "notebook", spread out over a couple of years, then those Pope of Slope odds tables are right out the window and "improbable" results might only be slightly surprising.

[jewofgolf]

Now this hasn't happened to me in a tournament, but just this year I have shot 4 and 5 shots under my index (0.2). It happens. People have good rounds. And add in the fact that as a 0 it's extremely difficult for me to save shots. On those 2 rounds I made a pile of birdies.

 

Think of how easy it is when all you have to do is make pars. I hate sandbagging as much as anyone but the OP situation seems legit. Why would the guy tank 5 events, blow the field away, then keep on posting high rounds.

 

Let people have their glory, or don't play net events. I would hate to lose to someone with a higher score, so I don't.

[cardoustie]

I note my pb of 68 at my home club has odds of 25,000 to 1. ... Sweet

 

I buy 1 all time round ... But two back to back lows sets off the BS meter

[wobgon]

The key thing in these tournys is to make the rules ahead of time so there will be no complaining later......Whoever is running the tourny can say that anyone who shoots below their cap has to stand on their head in the parking lot with their pants around their knees, and no one can complain as long as the rule is made before the tourny begins.

[Shilgy]

I don’t know this guy, but “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…” I’m pretty sure it’s a sandbagging duck.

 

There is this “pope of slope” page with the odds of shooting an Exceptional Tournament Score and there’s also Appendix E of the USGA Handicap Manual with a score probability table. I would certainly figure his differential for those rounds and use those tables to have a better idea of where he is.

 

In my opinion, if the player registers to C flight, that is his competition. If his handicap is not the one for that flight he is DQ’d. The fact that there is another tournament taking place at the same course for the B flight is irrelevant (to me). He didn’t register for that (flight B) tournament, so he can’t play it (forget about winning it!).

 

He signed in for the wrong flight and that should be penalized. Sending him to where he should have been from day one is not a penalty. The problem is that some other dudes look that nothing happens, so they do the same for the next tournament and that’s a never ending story. If you DQ a player who does that, the message is clear to him and the rest of the players as well.

 

Just my 0.02 ;)

His scoring average for the year, in those tournament competitions, was a 92.5 prior to the competition in question. His cap index was at 14.8. He signed in for the proper flight. There is no DQ for signing up for the wrong one.

 

What it sounds like is they are only calculating cap (index) based on the tournaments played in their events. If so, shame on them for not taking other rounds into account. If he only played those events, and not any other rounds (unlikely) his cap would be based on the low round alone (he has 6 scores) which is an 87. To me it sounds like the "tournament committee" has a fuzzy way of calculating handicap. And when that happens, it always leads to issues. Calc'ing from only those tournament scores doesn't give a full picture and leaves the door open for an exceptional round.

 

You say that the Committee has a fuzzy way of calculating handicap. I don’t know if they calculated that handicap or not. They do have to make sure that there are no handicap related problems during the competition.

 

Having a player in the C flight with a 14.8 index score a 76 means problems. The handicap is supposed to indicate a player’s skill. Almost every player has scored under his / her handicap and that is fine. The problem comes when you have someone scoring 5, 8 or more than 10 strokes under their skill (as it seems to be the case). That doesn’t happen. Anything more than 3 strokes under is worth looking at. We don’t know the differential for those rounds, but once again: If I were on that Committee I would see how many strokes under his supposed skill it was and go from there. Most likely the player would have been DQ’d.

 

Maybe he’s not cheating, but then the fact is that his handicap index is not correct. Not statistically speaking, at least. The Committee usually works with numbers and I would DQ a player with a skill that does not qualify (in statistical terms) to the tournament (flight) being played.

 

As for moving a player to a lower flight because of a great score, I feel it’s like telling sandbaggers that they can try… and if we get them we’ll just move them to where they belong. I prefer telling them that they belong outside the competition, not in a lower flight.

 

Hey: that's just me... Numbers say that his index is wrong... and I like numbers ;)

Cancun, I get your point but considering the odds are 37,000:1 of a 13-21 cap beating his handicap by 10 strokes it happens every day somewhere.

[vtnerf]

I note my pb of 68 at my home club has odds of 25,000 to 1. ... Sweet

 

I buy 1 all time round ... But two back to back lows sets off the BS meter

If the course was 69.4/119 (what a course near me is, and hosts some tournaments on those tees...) the 84 would give him a differential of 13.8. I wouldn't call that an exceptional score. His "index" (however calculated) at that time was 14.8. But it was 13.4 previously. Which means is went from 13.4 to 14.8 in a short period of time; over the tournament season. Which in turn means an "exceptional" score dropped off somewhere in there to bump it up 1.4 points.

 

Who konws what the tournament rules are for moving flights. It may very well be laid out in the rules sheet, or by-laws of the tournament. Heck, supposedly they re-group the pairings after day 1 for this tournament, but nobody in the B flight knew this guys was competing against them, yet alone leading.

[Loki]

I still don't like the fact that he was bumped mid-tourney

 

Why? Because his moving bumped you from third to fourth? I can't see a reason why you think he shouldn't have been in B flight, considering that he won it.

 

and didn't play with the B flight guys either day.

 

Yes, they do re-pair the flights for the second day.

 

On this we agree. He should have played with the group he was competing against. Seems like laziness on the committee's part to me.

 

Of course, I am disappointed about being bumped from third to fourth, I am always disappointed when I don't win my flight. That isn't what this is about. He was allowed to sign up for the C flight and it bit the committee in the butt when he shot the 76. He wasn't eligible for the B flight as he didn't enter it. We are just going to have to disagree.

[vtnerf]

There are a couple of schools of thought on what to do when someone shoots an exceptional score in a flighted tournament.

 

On one hand, leave him where he is and let it play out. He backs up the first round and wins the flight he entered. Assuming the cap is correct, he is in the right flight and just shot lights out. When the new revision comes around, the great rounds should lower it. He'll then move up a flight in the next tournament. Really, what's the difference if he wins by 1 or 15 over 2 days?

 

On the other hand, some committees try to "update"/"correct" as soon as possible, and move the player immediately. Again, he either backs it up and has a chance to win the B flight. Or he falls back to earth, follows the 76 with a 92, and finishes out of the money in the new flight, which is what a lot of people hope for.

[deadsolid...shank]

I don't understand something. How do you enter a particular flight? Other than declaring into the championship flight.

 

You sign up for the tournament and are put into the flight that corresponds to your handicap.

[Ktrain]

A 14 something handi that is legit does not shoot a 76 in a tournament..

The End!!

[zer0]

I played in a 2 day tournament this past weekend. And something happened that some of us don't really think is fair.

• Player has a 14.8 index with and average score of 92.5 over six rounds this year and is in the C flight. Kid hits the ball a long ways as I have played with him, not WRX long, mind you but longer than me.
  
• C flight is handicaps of 14.0 to 18.9, B flight is 9.0 to 13.9.
  
• He shoots a 76 at a pretty decent track.
  
• Due to the fact that he shot 4 strokes under the battleground promotion score he gets bumped up to B flight and is the leader after round 1.
  
• He shoots 84 on Sunday to win B flight by two strokes and would have won C flight by 10 shots. I fully expected him to shoot 90 to 92 based on his previous posted scores and based on historical averages of what players are likely to do in a round after they have had a really good round.
  
• I know nothing of his real handicap and what he normally shoots.
  
• Now you compound this with the fact that due to a 2.5 hour rain delay, he had to finish his last three holes the next morning and it got around that he was in B flight and leading it. He never played with his fellow B flight competitors either day, so we didn't know exactly where we stood.
  
• I feel bad for the guy that placed second after a decent round of 82 and lost out on the points, trophy and decent winnings. Wasn't me, I finished fourth.
  

I was told by the tour director that moving the player up a flight mid-tournament protects the field. Can someone explain to me how this protects the field and is fair as the tour director refuses to discuss it further?

 

I have never heard of anything like this happening. They certainly don't move players down if they have a bad round. I would have felt bad for him if he shot 90 and didn't finish in the money for B flight and would have won C flight.

 

 

 

It sounds like this was a Golfweek Am tour event based on the flight handicaps? If so, then don't the C and B flights play from different tee boxes? They do up here in Chicago. If they do, that gives that guy a massive advantage over the rest of the B flight.

[Loki]

B and C played from the same tees.

[North Butte]

I played in a 2 day tournament this past weekend. And something happened that some of us don't really think is fair.

• Player has a 14.8 index with and average score of 92.5 over six rounds this year and is in the C flight. Kid hits the ball a long ways as I have played with him, not WRX long, mind you but longer than me.
  
• C flight is handicaps of 14.0 to 18.9, B flight is 9.0 to 13.9.
  
• He shoots a 76 at a pretty decent track.
  
• Due to the fact that he shot 4 strokes under the battleground promotion score he gets bumped up to B flight and is the leader after round 1.
  
• He shoots 84 on Sunday to win B flight by two strokes and would have won C flight by 10 shots. I fully expected him to shoot 90 to 92 based on his previous posted scores and based on historical averages of what players are likely to do in a round after they have had a really good round.
  
• I know nothing of his real handicap and what he normally shoots.
  
• Now you compound this with the fact that due to a 2.5 hour rain delay, he had to finish his last three holes the next morning and it got around that he was in B flight and leading it. He never played with his fellow B flight competitors either day, so we didn't know exactly where we stood.
  
• I feel bad for the guy that placed second after a decent round of 82 and lost out on the points, trophy and decent winnings. Wasn't me, I finished fourth.
  

I was told by the tour director that moving the player up a flight mid-tournament protects the field. Can someone explain to me how this protects the field and is fair as the tour director refuses to discuss it further?

 

I have never heard of anything like this happening. They certainly don't move players down if they have a bad round. I would have felt bad for him if he shot 90 and didn't finish in the money for B flight and would have won C flight.

 

 

 

It sounds like this was a Golfweek Am tour event based on the flight handicaps? If so, then don't the C and B flights play from different tee boxes? They do up here in Chicago. If they do, that gives that guy a massive advantage over the rest of the B flight.

 

Good grief. Surely nobody getting paid to run a tournament could be that clueless.

[zer0]

so many people in this thread are confusing the facts and missing the point. OP must not have done a good job explaining himself. I understand what he is saying, but probably because I've played in the golfweek am tour so i know what he's talking about and can fill in the blanks.

 

Guys, there is no sandbagging here, that isn't an issue. The player had 6 previous TOURNAMENT rounds with this same organization and that is how he got an index of 14.8 and a spot in the C division.

[North Butte]

so many people in this thread are confusing the facts and missing the point. OP must not have done a good job explaining himself. I understand what he is saying, but probably because I've played in the golfweek am tour so i know what he's talking about and can fill in the blanks.

 

Guys, there is no sandbagging here, that isn't an issue. The player had 6 previous TOURNAMENT rounds with this same organization and that is how he got an index of 14.8 and a spot in the C division.

 

That's what I had figured. The issue is handicapping an event based on a handful of rounds. For high variance players somebody or another is going to get screwed in one direction or the other quite often.

 

It sounds like if you play in those events you need to be prepared for somebody to get dumped into your flight with no warning and you suddenly have no realistic chance to win your flight. Or for that matter to get put in your flight to start with, playing off a handicap that does not capture his actual scoring potential.

 

This kid that won the B flight had the bad-then-good fortune to shoot a few tournament scores 10+ strokes worse than he's capable of playing. Bad luck because he embarrassed himself in the earlier tournaments, good luck because all he has to do is show up and post two decent rounds and he'll walk away with a first-place prize in the B flight.

[zer0]

so many people in this thread are confusing the facts and missing the point. OP must not have done a good job explaining himself. I understand what he is saying, but probably because I've played in the golfweek am tour so i know what he's talking about and can fill in the blanks.

 

Guys, there is no sandbagging here, that isn't an issue. The player had 6 previous TOURNAMENT rounds with this same organization and that is how he got an index of 14.8 and a spot in the C division.

 

That's what I had figured. The issue is handicapping an event based on a handful of rounds. For high variance players somebody or another is going to get screwed in one direction or the other quite often.

 

It sounds like if you play in those events you need to be prepared for somebody to get dumped into your flight with no warning and you suddenly have no realistic chance to win your flight. Or for that matter to get put in your flight to start with, playing off a handicap that does not capture his actual scoring potential.

 

This kid that won the B flight had the bad-then-good fortune to shoot a few tournament scores 10+ strokes worse than he's capable of playing. Bad luck because he embarrassed himself in the earlier tournaments, good luck because all he has to do is show up and post two decent rounds and he'll walk away with a first-place prize in the B flight.

 

yea, I think another problem is the flights are too big in terms of handicaps. I stopped playing in these events cause I got sick of being in the B flight and needing to shoot a sub 80 round in a tournament to win. I was able to play one round in the C flight and finished 2nd with an 82 (from closer tees than the B flight) and then got promptly moved back up to B where I never come close to contending. I stopped playing after that cause its no fun when you know you have little to no shot of winning from the very start.

[farmer]

I can see a score of 3-4 better than a stated hdcp. Chip in twice, make a couple of bombs, a ball headed OB hits a tree and rebounds into the fairway, it happens. 10 shots, no way.

[Under2hours]

Sandbagging is the easiest thing to accomplish. Games are fun and you don't care about that 2'er, but when you miss it you count the stroke. Your round starts off bad and concentration goes and you post the 89 vs. 84 if you concentrated a little harder. Also you may have a few drinks and are one of those wild off the tee and penalty strokes......

 

All of a sudden your cap is up 3-4 and then you bear down and win some club events.

[Under2hours]

so many people in this thread are confusing the facts and missing the point. OP must not have done a good job explaining himself. I understand what he is saying, but probably because I've played in the golfweek am tour so i know what he's talking about and can fill in the blanks.

 

Guys, there is no sandbagging here, that isn't an issue. The player had 6 previous TOURNAMENT rounds with this same organization and that is how he got an index of 14.8 and a spot in the C division.

 

That's what I had figured. The issue is handicapping an event based on a handful of rounds. For high variance players somebody or another is going to get screwed in one direction or the other quite often.

 

It sounds like if you play in those events you need to be prepared for somebody to get dumped into your flight with no warning and you suddenly have no realistic chance to win your flight. Or for that matter to get put in your flight to start with, playing off a handicap that does not capture his actual scoring potential.

 

This kid that won the B flight had the bad-then-good fortune to shoot a few tournament scores 10+ strokes worse than he's capable of playing. Bad luck because he embarrassed himself in the earlier tournaments, good luck because all he has to do is show up and post two decent rounds and he'll walk away with a first-place prize in the B flight.

 

yea, I think another problem is the flights are too big in terms of handicaps. I stopped playing in these events cause I got sick of being in the B flight and needing to shoot a sub 80 round in a tournament to win. I was able to play one round in the C flight and finished 2nd with an 82 (from closer tees than the B flight) and then got promptly moved back up to B where I never come close to contending. I stopped playing after that cause its no fun when you know you have little to no shot of winning from the very start.

 

But how do you feel about long drive contests in tournaments/charity events???? :taunt:

[Hardluckster]

 

He was allowed to sign up for the C flight and it bit the committee in the butt when he shot the 76. He wasn't eligible for the B flight as he didn't enter it. We are just going to have to disagree.

 

Did participants choose their flight? How could that work? Or, did he sign up for the event and then the committee place him, based on their data, first in the C flight and later the B?

 

I'd be interested to know if there was a stipulation in the tournament rules about player shooting a certain amount of strokes better than their handicap. You mentioned something you called a battleground promotion score (I'm not familiar with this term) - is that in the tournament rules?

 

If this was sprung on the field without prior notice, I can see it being troublesome to some people. If they plan to do this and it isn't in the rules, it should be. jmo.

[North Butte]

I can see a score of 3-4 better than a stated hdcp. Chip in twice, make a couple of bombs, a ball headed OB hits a tree and rebounds into the fairway, it happens. 10 shots, no way.

 

You say "stated handicap" but apparently the entrant did not "state" anything. The tournament officials computed his handicap from a tiny number of previous rounds in events from the same series.

 

You can't blame a player for sandbagging if the tournament organizers choose to assign him a ridiculously high handicap. I find it easy to believe someone who is, say, a GHIN 8 index might sign up for a couple of serious tournaments and choke his guts out the first couple times. So now he's got this limited track record of shooting in the low 90's when in reality he can break 80 on any given day of the week.

 

They put him in a flight playing tees 400 yards shorter than he usually plays, he's now got enough tournament experience to play his usual game and voila he shoots a 76 and an 84. For all we know those two rounds might well be exactly in the range his GHIN index would predict. But he's not playing off his actual handicap, he's playing under the assumption that he'll keep shooting a million like he did those first couple times getting his feet wet.

 

I see no blame here at all for the tournament entrant. He has no control over what number they assign him for a handicap or what flight they put him in.

[Loki]

He was allowed to sign up for the C flight and it bit the committee in the butt when he shot the 76. He wasn't eligible for the B flight as he didn't enter it. We are just going to have to disagree.

 

Did participants choose their flight? How could that work? Or, did he sign up for the event and then the committee place him, based on their data, first in the C flight and later the B?

 

I'd be interested to know if there was a stipulation in the tournament rules about player shooting a certain amount of strokes better than their handicap. You mentioned something you called a battleground promotion score (I'm not familiar with this term) - is that in the tournament rules?

 

If this was sprung on the field without prior notice, I can see it being troublesome to some people. If they plan to do this and it isn't in the rules, it should be. jmo.

 

Participants are allowed to pick their flight when they register and since his handicap was in the C flight range either he signed up for C flight or was placed there, not sure which. The tour director will not talk any more about it (?).

 

Battleground promotion is when someone shoots below a certain threshold for a flight they automatically get moved up. It's in the tour handbook but it states immediately so I guess by rule they are allowed to do this mid-tournament.

[Loki]

so many people in this thread are confusing the facts and missing the point. OP must not have done a good job explaining himself. I understand what he is saying, but probably because I've played in the golfweek am tour so i know what he's talking about and can fill in the blanks.

 

Guys, there is no sandbagging here, that isn't an issue. The player had 6 previous TOURNAMENT rounds with this same organization and that is how he got an index of 14.8 and a spot in the C division.

 

Thought I explained it well, but you added to the explanation and you are correct.

[North Butte]

Handicapping that style of fairly "serious" tournament if you're going to allow players with a limited previous track record is a no-win undertaking. There's just no way to know what a player's potential for scoring might be if you're working off a handful of prior rounds. So sometimes stupid stuff will happen. If this kid keeps playing in several events a year it'll all sort it out eventually. But I'd imagine they can't run their tour with only golfers who have played 8-10-12 prior events over a reasonable time frame.

[Loki]

so many people in this thread are confusing the facts and missing the point. OP must not have done a good job explaining himself. I understand what he is saying, but probably because I've played in the golfweek am tour so i know what he's talking about and can fill in the blanks.

 

Guys, there is no sandbagging here, that isn't an issue. The player had 6 previous TOURNAMENT rounds with this same organization and that is how he got an index of 14.8 and a spot in the C division.

 

That's what I had figured. The issue is handicapping an event based on a handful of rounds. For high variance players somebody or another is going to get screwed in one direction or the other quite often.

 

It sounds like if you play in those events you need to be prepared for somebody to get dumped into your flight with no warning and you suddenly have no realistic chance to win your flight. Or for that matter to get put in your flight to start with, playing off a handicap that does not capture his actual scoring potential.

 

This kid that won the B flight had the bad-then-good fortune to shoot a few tournament scores 10+ strokes worse than he's capable of playing. Bad luck because he embarrassed himself in the earlier tournaments, good luck because all he has to do is show up and post two decent rounds and he'll walk away with a first-place prize in the B flight.

 

yea, I think another problem is the flights are too big in terms of handicaps. I stopped playing in these events cause I got sick of being in the B flight and needing to shoot a sub 80 round in a tournament to win. I was able to play one round in the C flight and finished 2nd with an 82 (from closer tees than the B flight) and then got promptly moved back up to B where I never come close to contending. I stopped playing after that cause its no fun when you know you have little to no shot of winning from the very start.

 

It isn't unusual that a B flight wins with a sub-80 round. Shooting an 82 in C flight, especially from someone that hasn't played many of the tournaments, will draw "Wow's" since an 82 will beat a lot of B flight scores.

 

Last year, I won B flight with an 81 on a course at 6900 yards. I finished T2 over all and would have won A flight also. Didn't get moved up because it was a normal B flight score. Earlier this year I shot 89 to get into a B flight playoff for the win. So the scores are quite variable, given that we are amateurs after all. Generally, you need to play well compared to your tour handicap to win.