Would you call this protecting the field? Would you call it fair?

[North Butte]

On an totally different tangent here's something happened to me a couple years ago...

 

There's a public course near me that hosts a little 9-hole after work pickup game one day a week during the summer. They keep their own handicaps. When you play the first time they use your USGA course handicap but after that they literally use your most recent round to compute your handicap the next time you show up. Yeah, nuts right?

 

So I play the first time off my USGA 9 handicap (they rounded up from my 18-hole handicap of 17) and beat it by four shots. It's just nine holes and I hit a few real good shots. Didn't win any money because my blind-draw partner played awful. Next week they knocked me down to a 5 handicap and I shoot 11-over for the nine holes. Lost a couple balls in the woods.

 

A few weeks later I go back and sure enough they tell me I'm playing off 11 because of my most recent round. Anyone want to guess what I shot? Exactly 9 over par, just like my actual handicap would predict. Crazy game they run.

 

If they'd just have used my GHIN number my scores would have been (-4, +2, Even) for the three rounds. Instead it was (-4, +6, -2) all over the place.

[Shilgy]

I can see a score of 3-4 better than a stated hdcp. Chip in twice, make a couple of bombs, a ball headed OB hits a tree and rebounds into the fairway, it happens. 10 shots, no way.

I could easily see 5 or six. better. On my last 20 scores the differentials vary by 11.6. From -0.6 to 11. So beating cap by 5 is easily doable even with a fairly low cap. A 14.8 could easily have a variance much wider and have a score that beats his cap by 8-10.

[North Butte]

The guy is no 14.8 handicap in any case. That is a number assigned by the no doubt well intentioned tournament organizers and used instead of whatever was his real index. Kid is almost certainly a mid-high single digit who screwed the pooch in his first couple tournaments and was therefore incorrectly assigned a way too high tournament 'cap.

[Loki]

The guy is no 14.8 handicap in any case. That is a number assigned by the no doubt well intentioned tournament organizers and used instead of whatever was his real index. Kid is almost certainly a mid-high single digit who screwed the pooch in his first couple tournaments and was therefore incorrectly assigned a way too high tournament 'cap.

 

?? The 14.8 is his index based on tour scores. Call it what you want, but I am comfortable that his index was correct. He should have just stayed in the C flight for the entire tourney.

[MrJones]

The guy is no 14.8 handicap in any case. That is a number assigned by the no doubt well intentioned tournament organizers and used instead of whatever was his real index. Kid is almost certainly a mid-high single digit who screwed the pooch in his first couple tournaments and was therefore incorrectly assigned a way too high tournament 'cap.

 

?? The 14.8 is his index based on tour scores. Call it what you want, but I am comfortable that his index was correct. He should have just stayed in the C flight for the entire tourney.

 

Well to be fair your original post made it sound like he'd only played 6 rounds of golf this year. You say you're comfortable his index was correct but based only on 6 rounds? Did he play at all between those times? That's what a lot of us are having trouble with. He either played only 6 rounds or he played more than that and the other rounds weren't figured into his cap. Giving someone an index bases only on certain rounds is no different than someone else only turning in their worst scores. That's exactly what "sandbaggers" do. It's not a real index.

 

I understand (at least I think I do) that this is just how your tour/league operates but if he were to go play in any other event, it would be unfair of him to report himself as a 14.8.

[North Butte]

I understand (at least I think I do) that this is just how your tour/league operates but if he were to go play in any other event, it would be unfair of him to report himself as a 14.8.

 

If Loki knows the kid's name, he can go look him up in GHIN. I'll bet his actual handicap is in the single digits.

 

When the tournament organizers choose to only use a handful of rounds from their own tournaments they are trading off one problem for another. If you use actual handicaps then probably every event will be won by a true sandbagger who "manages" his GHIN scores. But if you use handicaps from your own tournaments and you let just a handful of rounds determine the number, the sort of thing Loki experienced will happen frequently.

 

This event series chooses the latter. I wouldn't be willing to say they are making a bad choice. But choosing to handicap off just a few rounds (rounds that may have been outside the comfort zone of a newbie) will absolutely result in this kind of pattern. First couple tournaments he posts awful, uncharacteristic scores then when he finally gets his tournament legs under him he wins his flight in a blowout.

 

File this under the category "s*** Happens-Totally Forseeable".

[deadsolid...shank]

I understand (at least I think I do) that this is just how your tour/league operates but if he were to go play in any other event, it would be unfair of him to report himself as a 14.8.

 

If Loki knows the kid's name, he can go look him up in GHIN. I'll bet his actual handicap is in the single digits.

 

When the tournament organizers choose to only use a handful of rounds from their own tournaments they are trading off one problem for another. If you use actual handicaps then probably every event will be won by a true sandbagger who "manages" his GHIN scores. But if you use handicaps from your own tournaments and you let just a handful of rounds determine the number, the sort of thing Loki experienced will happen frequently.

 

This event series chooses the latter. I wouldn't be willing to say they are making a bad choice. But choosing to handicap off just a few rounds (rounds that may have been outside the comfort zone of a newbie) will absolutely result in this kind of pattern. First couple tournaments he posts awful, uncharacteristic scores then when he finally gets his tournament legs under him he wins his flight in a blowout.

 

File this under the category "s*** Happens-Totally Forseeable".

 

At least this way they can only take advantage of their "bagging" once. Once they shoot a legitimate tournament round the number should drop dramatically.

In order to manipulate their caps they have to tank in tournament rounds. So at least they're donating for some. Real baggers manipulate their caps in meaningless rounds so they can hammer people in the tournaments.

 

Small consolation I know but I can see where it could have some appeal.

[pingfool]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

 

[North Butte]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

Again, it makes no difference if he posts with or without a T or not at all. The people running these tournaments do not use USGA/GHIN scores. They do their own computation from his scores only in these events

[pingfool]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

Again, it makes no difference if he posts with or without a T or not at all. The people running these tournaments do not use USGA/GHIN scores. They do their own computation from his scores only in these events

 

So guy could be playing other courses and shooting scores that indicate 10 handicap - but your committee is making it up as they go?

 

That just leaves the door open for funny things to happen

 

[North Butte]

That's what we've been saying.

 

The guy may carry a perfectly legitimate USGA 8.something index but he happened to shoot in the 90s his first couple tournaments with this "tour" and they called him a 14.8 based on a handful of scores. No way for us to know if he's a real sandbagger or if those lower scores were highly unusual for his real handicap or not!

[vtnerf]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

Again, it makes no difference if he posts with or without a T or not at all. The people running these tournaments do not use USGA/GHIN scores. They do their own computation from his scores only in these events

 

So guy could be playing other courses and shooting scores that indicate 10 handicap - but your committee is making it up as they go?

 

That just leaves the door open for funny things to happen

Exactly right. Only scores posted in the tournaments for this "tour" are used for his cap. Not only is it a small sample size, but leaves it open for "exceptional" scores. For the tour, that score will drop his cap a couple of strokes. For GHIN it might have the chance to lower it by .2 or less.

[Imp]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

Again, it makes no difference if he posts with or without a T or not at all. The people running these tournaments do not use USGA/GHIN scores. They do their own computation from his scores only in these events

Full stop. If the committee of the tour says he's a 14.8, then the player should be absolved 100% of any wrong-doing for posting lower scores than the handicap the committee assigned. You cannot call him a sandbagger, at all. NOT HIS FAULT. The blame rests solely on the committee for not using his *real* handicap. He played by the rules made up by the committee, as did everyone else. I bet there were a lot of people with a lower GHIN Index than what the committee was using for their own calculations.

 

--kC

[North Butte]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

Again, it makes no difference if he posts with or without a T or not at all. The people running these tournaments do not use USGA/GHIN scores. They do their own computation from his scores only in these events

Full stop. If the committee of the tour says he's a 14.8, then the player should be absolved 100% of any wrong-doing for posting lower scores than the handicap the committee assigned. You cannot call him a sandbagger, at all. NOT HIS FAULT. The blame rests solely on the committee for not using his *real* handicap. He played by the rules made up by the committee, as did everyone else. I bet there were a lot of people with a lower GHIN Index than what the committee was using for their own calculations.

 

--kC

 

Exactly. That's the point I've been trying to make all along. You can't scream "Sandbagger" when someone isn't even playing off their real handicap. I guarantee you with that setup this isn't the first, last or only time this happens in events runs by that organization.

 

It's kind of like if someone at my club wants to play me for money and I say, "Boy you really played awful last month in the club championship. Never mind your 4 handicap I'll give you six a side". When he shoots 76 and takes my money I can't turn around and complain about sandbagging.

[DavePelz4]

If rules for getting bumped a flight based on first round score are posted before tournament - then committee did the right thing

 

Sounds like weather delay and finishing 3 holes of first round on 2nd day might have prevented repairing - especially for the flight bump guy

 

Having a 14.8 shoot 76-84 happens often enough for no one here to be shocked

 

Post his scores with T and that will catch up with him

 

Again, it makes no difference if he posts with or without a T or not at all. The people running these tournaments do not use USGA/GHIN scores. They do their own computation from his scores only in these events

Full stop. If the committee of the tour says he's a 14.8, then the player should be absolved 100% of any wrong-doing for posting lower scores than the handicap the committee assigned. You cannot call him a sandbagger, at all. NOT HIS FAULT. The blame rests solely on the committee for not using his *real* handicap. He played by the rules made up by the committee, as did everyone else. I bet there were a lot of people with a lower GHIN Index than what the committee was using for their own calculations.

 

--kC

 

Excellent post!

[larrybud]

I've read a lot of these sandbagging threads and usually I'm not all in agreement with someone accused of sandbagging because my handicap is usually around 90 but I am more focused when I am playing for something and can pull of a low 80 or 80 round easily.

 

And there's the problem. You're supposed to give each round your full attention, T or not.

[larrybud]

Handicapping that style of fairly "serious" tournament if you're going to allow players with a limited previous track record is a no-win undertaking. There's just no way to know what a player's potential for scoring might be if you're working off a handful of prior rounds.

 

The solution is simple, if you don't have X number of rounds in the system, you play off scratch.

[Under2hours]

I've read a lot of these sandbagging threads and usually I'm not all in agreement with someone accused of sandbagging because my handicap is usually around 90 but I am more focused when I am playing for something and can pull of a low 80 or 80 round easily.

 

And there's the problem. You're supposed to give each round your full attention, T or not.

 

And that is the weakest excuse and yes they are sandbaggers...... These problems occur over and over and the list of excuses for great scores become repetitive....

1. I bear down in competitive rounds
   
2. I'm drinking when with friends
   
3. I play more conservative and less penalty strokes
   
4. I leave my driver in the bag
   
5. I play well under pressure
   

Very little difference between them and the purposeful sandbagger.....

[Shilgy]

I've read a lot of these sandbagging threads and usually I'm not all in agreement with someone accused of sandbagging because my handicap is usually around 90 but I am more focused when I am playing for something and can pull of a low 80 or 80 round easily.

 

And there's the problem. You're supposed to give each round your full attention, T or not.

 

And that is the weakest excuse and yes they are sandbaggers...... These problems occur over and over and the list of excuses for great scores become repetitive....

1. I bear down in competitive rounds
   
2. I'm drinking when with friends
   
3. I play more conservative and less penalty strokes
   
4. I leave my driver in the bag
   
5. I play well under pressure
   

Very little difference between them and the purposeful sandbagger.....

Part of the problem is the games we play when not in a tournament situation. On weekends we usually throw balls for teams and have a skins pot on the side. If we are counting two of four and a player has a longish birdie putt and a couple partners are in with par he will gun the birdie putt a bit-both for the team and skins. If he missing coming back it's a bogey he likely does not make in competition. Same with trying to make a forced carry and other similar situations. Easy to play more aggressively if there is really no penalty for failure.

[MrJones]

Part of the problem is the games we play when not in a tournament situation. On weekends we usually throw balls for teams and have a skins pot on the side. If we are counting two of four and a player has a longish birdie putt and a couple partners are in with par he will gun the birdie putt a bit-both for the team and skins. If he missing coming back it's a bogey he likely does not make in competition. Same with trying to make a forced carry and other similar situations. Easy to play more aggressively if there is really no penalty for failure.

 

I'm very guilty of this. Money rounds (even small money) I play much more aggressively. Especially on the backside trying to make up points. Once a teammate has par, I'm more likely to be aggressive with a low percentage birdie chance.

[Under2hours]

So all of you are sandbaggers if under the presumption that you play more aggressively on non-competitive rounds and still count every stroke. Those two-putts become three-putts. The easy lay-up becomes a lost ball, concentration lapse when out of the hole......

[Imp]

So all of you are sandbaggers if under the presumption that you play more aggressively on non-competitive rounds and still count every stroke. Those two-putts become three-putts. The easy lay-up becomes a lost ball, concentration lapse when out of the hole......

Inconceivable! Everyone only plays to 100% of their capability 100% of the time they're on the course!

 

--kC

[MrJones]

So all of you are sandbaggers if under the presumption that you play more aggressively on non-competitive rounds and still count every stroke. Those two-putts become three-putts. The easy lay-up becomes a lost ball, concentration lapse when out of the hole......

 

Does it make a difference if I'm just as mad for having 3 putted and disappointed in my overall score??

 

I can say that, if I play better during tournament rounds, it's only towards the low end of my handicap. I may have shot my worst rounds during money games but I've also shot all of my lowest scores on those aggressive money games. So maybe it evens out?

[Shilgy]

So all of you are sandbaggers if under the presumption that you play more aggressively on non-competitive rounds and still count every stroke. Those two-putts become three-putts. The easy lay-up becomes a lost ball, concentration lapse when out of the hole......

no-those putts that lead to three putts often yield more birdies as well. Play it down and embrace the challenge. You will enjoy the game more.

[MaccaRayDudley]

I played in a 2 day tournament this past weekend. And something happened that some of us don't really think is fair.

• Player has a 14.8 index with and average score of 92.5 over six rounds this year and is in the C flight. Kid hits the ball a long ways as I have played with him, not WRX long, mind you but longer than me.
  
• C flight is handicaps of 14.0 to 18.9, B flight is 9.0 to 13.9.
  
• He shoots a 76 at a pretty decent track.
  
• Due to the fact that he shot 4 strokes under the battleground promotion score he gets bumped up to B flight and is the leader after round 1.
  
• He shoots 84 on Sunday to win B flight by two strokes and would have won C flight by 10 shots. I fully expected him to shoot 90 to 92 based on his previous posted scores and based on historical averages of what players are likely to do in a round after they have had a really good round.
  
• I know nothing of his real handicap and what he normally shoots.
  
• Now you compound this with the fact that due to a 2.5 hour rain delay, he had to finish his last three holes the next morning and it got around that he was in B flight and leading it. He never played with his fellow B flight competitors either day, so we didn't know exactly where we stood.
  
• I feel bad for the guy that placed second after a decent round of 82 and lost out on the points, trophy and decent winnings. Wasn't me, I finished fourth.
  

I was told by the tour director that moving the player up a flight mid-tournament protects the field. Can someone explain to me how this protects the field and is fair as the tour director refuses to discuss it further?

 

I have never heard of anything like this happening. They certainly don't move players down if they have a bad round. I would have felt bad for him if he shot 90 and didn't finish in the money for B flight and would have won C flight.

 

Clearly he is a sandbagger. Anybody who claims to be a 15 handicap and shoots 76 and then backs that up with an 84 either has not had their handicap assessed properly or intentionally has a bogus handicap. Either way your club were right to make this adjustment. I don't understand why you felt bad for the guy that didn't win the B flight? He got beaten by a better player that should have been in the B flight in the first place. Moving him up to the B flight protects those in the C flight from a ringer, it doesn't and shouldn't protect anybody in the B flight.

[North Butte]

Please read the whole thread before posting. The event is not using his actual handicap, they are using one made up by the organizers. Nobody here has any idea what he would "claim" his handicap to be but it almost surely was nowhere near as high as 14.8.

[Under2hours]

Please read the whole thread before posting. The event is not using his actual handicap, they are using one made up by the organizers. Nobody here has any idea what he would "claim" his handicap to be but it almost surely was nowhere near as high as 14.8.

 

Exactly and they reassessed him.

 

Yesterday I played okay and on 18 I never finished the hole. Now If I did and I did not care after falling into the bunker on my 3rd and blasting over my 4th and couldn't care less if a 6 or above..... I could have played it out for a 9, claimed a 90 and do this a few times and voila a bogus HC (I am not inputting by hole and have my HC adjusted).......

 

That is the problem with HC's.....

[Shilgy]

Please read the whole thread before posting. The event is not using his actual handicap, they are using one made up by the organizers. Nobody here has any idea what he would "claim" his handicap to be but it almost surely was nowhere near as high as 14.8.

 

Exactly and they reassessed him.

 

Yesterday I played okay and on 18 I never finished the hole. Now If I did and I did not care after falling into the bunker on my 3rd and blasting over my 4th and couldn't care less if a 6 or above..... I could have played it out for a 9, claimed a 90 and do this a few times and voila a bogus HC (I am not inputting by hole and have my HC adjusted).......

 

That is the problem with HC's.....

Using ESC is up to you posting a total score that has been adjusted. Not entered hole by hole and computer adjusted. Really that is part of what peer review is for.