Divots in the fairway

[oikos1]

1 minute ago, sui generis said:

 

Or, how is that different from replacing divots and repairing ball marks? 😃

Completely different.  You can repair a divot in a bunker by swiping across with your foot, if you so choose to be courteous to the next golfer.  No rake required.  Just like replacing a divot if one so chooses to be courteous to the next golfer.

 

 

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Completely different.  You can repair a divot in a bunker by swiping across with your foot, if you so choose to be courteous to the next golfer.  No rake required.  Just like replacing a divot if one so chooses to be courteous to the next golfer.

 

 

I call it care and respect for the course, which periodically gets rewarded (karma).

[oikos1]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I call it care and respect for the course, which periodically gets rewarded (karma).

Sure, except you don't need a rake to "care" for the course.  I just outlined acceptable courteous practices one can choose to do.  Do you disagree?  Perhaps there should be a hand tamper provided every 25 yards along each fairway and golfers would be required to repair all of their divots (under risk of disqualification in an official match and suspension of golf privileges if a recreational outing).

 

 

[rogolf]

Club members have been disciplined for behaviour/conduct contrary to club policies and guidelines.  Professional tours discipline players (financially) for behaviour/conduct which are contrary to their standards.  The Rules of golf already provide the Committee in charge to implement codes of conduct that involve golf penalties.

All of this is intended to change unacceptable behaviour on golf courses.

In the meantime, play hard!

Edited March 1, 2021 by rogolf

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Sure, except you don't need a rake to "care" for the course.  I just outlined acceptable courteous practices one can choose to do.  Do you disagree?  Perhaps there should be a hand tamper provided every 25 yards along each fairway and golfers would be required to repair all of their divots (under risk of disqualification in an official match and suspension of golf privileges if a recreational outing).

 

 

Golf is a test, both physical and mental.

 

A lie is not good or bad it just is. To play golf well you just need to deal with it. 
 

https://www.golfalot.com/instruction/psychologytest.aspx

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Golf is a test, both physical and mental.

 

A lie is not good or bad it just is. To play golf well you just need to deal with it. 
 

https://www.golfalot.com/instruction/psychologytest.aspx

Of course it is.  I imagine that's why most of us play the game.

 

It just doesn't make sense that the logic is if you hit the ball in a bunker the expectation is it should be raked and prepped to be the easiest shot possible from that location yet if your ball finishes in a divot hole in the fairway, well dem's da breaks. 

 

If you don't believe in relief from the fairway, I'm still waiting for a good explanation why one would think a bunker should be raked.  I don't think anybody has one, except that it makes the game easier which no one seems to want to admit.

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Of course it is.  I imagine that's why most of us play the game.

 

It just doesn't make sense that the logic is if you hit the ball in a bunker the expectation is it should be raked and prepped to be the easiest shot possible from that location yet if your ball finishes in a divot hole in the fairway, well dem's da breaks. 

 

If you don't believe in relief from the fairway, I'm still waiting for a good explanation why one would think a bunker should be raked.  I don't think anybody has one, except that it makes the game easier which no one seems to want to admit.

Just like "fairways", bunkers are not always perfect.  Some players don't replace divots, some players don't rake bunkers.

Play hard (unplayable is another option).

Edited March 1, 2021 by rogolf

[Shilgy]

33 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Of course it is.  I imagine that's why most of us play the game.

 

It just doesn't make sense that the logic is if you hit the ball in a bunker the expectation is it should be raked and prepped to be the easiest shot possible from that location yet if your ball finishes in a divot hole in the fairway, well dem's da breaks. 

 

If you don't believe in relief from the fairway, I'm still waiting for a good explanation why one would think a bunker should be raked.  I don't think anybody has one, except that it makes the game easier which no one seems to want to admit.

You just failed the test asking about expectations as pertains the lie. It is what it is. If the S0B in front of you didn’t rake the bunker or replace the divot you get no relief. The expectation that the player should have filled or replaced the divot is the same as the player should have raked the bunker.  But neither action changes the fact your lie is what it is. Get on with it and hit the next shot.

[oikos1]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You just failed the test asking about expectations as pertains the lie. It is what it is. If the S0B in front of you didn’t rake the bunker or replace the divot you get no relief. The expectation that the player should have filled or replaced the divot is the same as the player should have raked the bunker.  But neither action changes the fact your lie is what it is. Get on with it and hit the next shot.

No, not at all.  You haven't explained why a bunker should be raked yet all other lies are luck of the draw.  What's wrong with a foot gently spreading the sand?

 

According to some here in this forum, a golfer could be penalized under rule 1.2a standards of player conduct.  If you remove the rake and the expectation, then there would be no penalty.

 

And of course, you still haven't answered my question:  Does raking a bunker make the next shot for a player out of the bunker easier than if the bunker was not raked?

[sui generis]

A bunker rake is one of the tools we have at our disposal to care for the course. Another is that pointy gadget in our pocket which helps us repair ball marks on the green. The third is our size 10 which secures that divot that we bothered to pick up and replace in our divot hole.

 

All of these measures make life "easier" for those who play in our wake. Seems like a good thing, right?

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, sui generis said:

A bunker rake is one of the tools we have at our disposal to care for the course. Another is that pointy gadget in our pocket which helps us repair ball marks on the green. The third is our size 10 which secures that divot that we bothered to pick up and replace in our divot hole.

 

All of these measures make life "easier" for those who play in our wake. Seems like a good thing, right?

Conflation eases the mind.  An understandable place to be.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, oikos1 said:

No, not at all.  You haven't explained why a bunker should be raked yet all other lies are luck of the draw.  What's wrong with a foot gently spreading the sand?

 

According to some here in this forum, a golfer could be penalized under rule 1.2a standards of player conduct.  If you remove the rake and the expectation, then there would be no penalty.

 

And of course, you still haven't answered my question:  Does raking a bunker make the next shot for a player out of the bunker easier than if the bunker was not raked?

How is this for an explanation?

A player “should” replace of fill the divot hole to care for the course. But if he does not you play it as it lies.

A player “should” rake the bunker after playing from it to care for the course. But if he does not you play it as it lies.

 

End of story.

[oikos1]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

How is this for an explanation?

A player “should” replace of fill the divot hole to care for the course. But if he does not you play it as it lies.

A player “should” rake the bunker after playing from it to care for the course. But if he does not you play it as it lies.

 

End of story.

Great story. You need the rake.  Fair enough.

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

Great story. You need the rake.  Fair enough.

You need the rake for the bunker or a sand bottle for the divot hole.

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, oikos1 said:

No, not at all.  You haven't explained why a bunker should be raked yet all other lies are luck of the draw.  What's wrong with a foot gently spreading the sand?

 

According to some here in this forum, a golfer could be penalized under rule 1.2a standards of player conduct.  If you remove the rake and the expectation, then there would be no penalty.

 

And of course, you still haven't answered my question:  Does raking a bunker make the next shot for a player out of the bunker easier than if the bunker was not raked?

A bunker should be raked (if the course asks you to do it) to leave the best possible condition for the next player and for general maintenance of the course. Likely it will make that bunker easier to play out if raked properly

 

A divot should be filled for the same reasons. 

 

A ball mark should be fixed for the same reasons.

 

All three things are likely to make the course more predictable to play for the next player. 

 

 

[2bGood]

I find it interesting that the people that push for free relief from divots never seem to suggest  a rule change to repair a 'divot' and replace your ball?

 

It still a problematic idea, that I would not support, but it is another option.

Edited March 2, 2021 by 2bGood

[oikos1]

12 hours ago, 2bGood said:

A bunker should be raked (if the course asks you to do it) to leave the best possible condition for the next player and for general maintenance of the course. Likely it will make that bunker easier to play out if raked properly

 

A divot should be filled for the same reasons. 

 

A ball mark should be fixed for the same reasons.

 

All three things are likely to make the course more predictable to play for the next player. 

 

 

I applaud you for acknowledging a raked bunker makes the game easier to play.  A reminder for those who mock others who propose rule changes that may make the game easier to play, just as petunia and hybrid25 have done.

[llewol007]

Part of the game. Play it as it lies is what I was taught unless it is marked off by the course or by stakes and such. I played yesterday and had my sand bottle with me in the fairway all day. Rule of thumb, cover yours and two more. Leave it better for the players behind you. Some courses are better taken cared of but there are players who still do not even replace their own divots. Always takers and never add value to the course they play. We in the know have to teach this to those who do not.  If we are looking for better lies when we play,  why not just improve every lie 😂

[2bGood]

11 hours ago, oikos1 said:

I applaud you for acknowledging a raked bunker makes the game easier to play.  A reminder for those who mock others who propose rule changes that may make the game easier to play, just as petunia and hybrid25 have done.

As a side note, I chose my words very carefully - it likely makes it easier IF raked properly. There are number of wrong ways to rake a bunker that actually make them more difficult and cause plugged balls or cause balls to not collect properly away from the lip. 

 

But as I also pointed out a properly filled divot is easier to play out of in general than one left un-repaired. 

 

The rules in general don't have any allowance for misfortune caused by poor course maintenance of the golfer before you:

 

If you land a poorly prepped bunker resulting in a tough lie - no relief.

 

If you find yourself in an unfilled divot - no relief.

 

At least the rules are consistent. 

 

But here is the fun part - the rules do allow for a remedy for misfortune caused by poor course maintenance of the golfer before you on the green. The remedy is not free relief, but rather allowing you to fix the damage and replace your ball. 

 

For this reason (sorry to repeat it) I am surprised no one argues that a remedy for divots is to allow golfers to fix them and replace their ball.  I am not arguing that this is a rule change that should happen, but it there is a certain logic to it that seems largely unexplored.

 

 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

For this reason (sorry to repeat it) I am surprised no one argues that a remedy for divots is to allow golfers to fix them and replace their ball.  I am not arguing that this is a rule change that should happen, but it there is a certain logic to it that seems largely unexplored.

 

Superficially a reasonable suggestion but given the high incidence reported here of unrepaired divot holes I suspect everyone will then start complaining about delays whilst repairs are done and having to carry a bag of repair mix.

As I have very rarely had to play from a divot hole, I don't see the issue but have practiced the technique just in case.

[2bGood]

18 minutes ago, Newby said:

Superficially a reasonable suggestion but given the high incidence reported here of unrepaired divot holes I suspect everyone will then start complaining about delays whilst repairs are done and having to carry a bag of repair mix.

As I have very rarely had to play from a divot hole, I don't see the issue but have practiced the technique just in case.

That is the perfect way to describe it. 

 

I too fall in the extremely low incident of being in a divot camp. Maybe 1/100 rounds do I find myself in one of any concern. I have never had it occur in an event and I play 20-30 a year. Admittedly I play at a private club and tend to play most of my rounds at nicer courses.

 

I actually kind of enjoy getting the chance to hit the divot shot when it has occurred, just like I enjoy hitting other unique shots when they come up. 

[Mr. Bean]

On 3/3/2021 at 9:38 AM, Newby said:

As I have very rarely had to play from a divot hole, I don't see the issue but have practiced the technique just in case.

 

That deserves respect!

 

I only seem to practice driving balls out of bounds. Then again, it happens at least 100 times more often than finding my ball in a fairway divot hole. Which is not surprising compared to the time I seem to practice driving balls OB...

[TerpFangolfer]

Well here we go....18th hole on Sunday of a pretty prominent PGA event.

Just for the record I am in camp "no relief" but it does suck in a situation like this

[sui generis]

38 minutes ago, TerpFangolfer said:

Well here we go....18th hole on Sunday of a pretty prominent PGA event.

Just for the record I am in camp "no relief" but it does suck in a situation like this

 

Yep, par from a sand-filled divot hole is just awful. 🙄

 

For the record, it was not a "PGA event." It was a PGA Tour event, a TV show whose sole mission in the universe is to get you to watch a golf-themed reality show and to entice old white men into buying the shiny things shown in the adverts.

[TerpFangolfer]

Golf Twitter all over it...there are actually seemingly serious posts that say "fairways should be LCP at all times" ...unbelievable 

[rogolf]

12 minutes ago, TerpFangolfer said:

Golf Twitter all over it...there are actually seemingly serious posts that say "fairways should be LCP at all times" ...unbelievable 

Probably the crowd that already take relief from divot holes during their rounds - they just want the Rules to justify what they are doing (maybe they have a pang of guilt, but not likely).

Pretty gutsy playing by Westwood!

Edited March 8, 2021 by rogolf

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, TerpFangolfer said:

Well here we go....18th hole on Sunday of a pretty prominent PGA event.

Just for the record I am in camp "no relief" but it does suck in a situation like this

I am not sure where the drama was. Didn't seem to bother Westwood one bit. Ball first, hit the middle of the green, make par (which was better than the field). If anything it was good example of why we don't need to fuss about divots. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by 2bGood

[ArtMBgolf]

Under the rules, relief is granted for less obstructive situations than a divot. 
Westwood's divot was sand filled and level.  It could have been a fresh hole, 
which doesn't happen much on tour, with caddies and sand patrols.  
It can happen in a fresh divot hole in our Am, Club Champ, etc.   
 
The USGA could write a rule about when divots stop being GUR and when they 
are no longer a drop.  Let the rules official decide.   You can putt just fine with
your foot on a sprinkler head, but Dechamb got a drop from it.   
  
In men's club on a public course, I have seen guys completely against some 
local rules, but then when they have that situation, they get crazy upset that it 
happened to them.       

[2bGood]

33 minutes ago, ArtMBgolf said:

Under the rules, relief is granted for less obstructive situations than a divot. 
Westwood's divot was sand filled and level.  It could have been a fresh hole, 
which doesn't happen much on tour, with caddies and sand patrols.  
It can happen in a fresh divot hole in our Am, Club Champ, etc.   
 
The USGA could write a rule about when divots stop being GUR and when they 
are no longer a drop.  Let the rules official decide.   You can putt just fine with
your foot on a sprinkler head, but Dechamb got a drop from it.   
  
In men's club on a public course, I have seen guys completely against some 
local rules, but then when they have that situation, they get crazy upset that it 
happened to them.       

It is really easy to define a sprinkler head.

 

Let us know how you would define divot? 

[Newby]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Let us know how you would define divot? 

The piece of turf removed from a divot hole.    😉

Edited March 8, 2021 by Newby