I need your opinions please!

[joey3108]

Hi guys,

 

Hope all of you are doing well on and off the course. I've been debating for a while if I should post it here or not and debating what I'm gonna say? What action I should take? I'm gonna try to digest your opinions here. Thanks in advance!

 

As you all know who I'm and what I do for a living....lots of you know also how I work. I don't mind to go the extra miles to make a customer happy and how anal I'm when it comes to get it to specs.

 

Bare in mind through the transaction and communication were all recorded in writing by email or text.

 

Let's get on it here. A member contacted me here wanting to order a pair of Miura custom grind wedges. From the get go I can tell this is not gonna be an easy one to deal with. Kind of demanding and he think he knows more about club than me...so I asked that he should trust me if he really want me to build his club. He agreed! Long story short, I kept him inform on every steps and send pictures on the process. There are some specs that he go back and forward changing from his original email specs request (keep this issue in mind), because his existing iron set was not build to the exact specs he was told by the guy who build them (thank God it wasn't me). I asked him to send his set because he asked to grind the gap wedge resemble the PW of his iron set Miura blade. I do have a record of his print out and my hand writing on how off was the specs. So he go back and forward talking about specs with me and finally made his mind. Again everything in writing. We are talking about worth hours of my time on text and email just to regrip his iron and the main work to build his 2 wedges.

 

Came down to the final touch in stamping. He asked to stamped the loft and bounce angle and my logo on the heel by the top line. So I told him the more letters to stamp the harder to do it. So I asked him if he could trust me to be creative in the stamping .....he answered it real quick and he basically said no problem. They were 52 and 58 with both 10* bounce, so my creative mind did 52.X and 58.X. the X as we know if Roman numerical for 10 and the letter x is easier to stamp and unique imo.

 

Guess what? He claimed he doesn't like it and flipped on me after I stamped them and went crazy saying he demand a refund and the whole drama. I told him I can't do that after he said no problem for me to get creative on the stamping. Silly me cut the shaft base on his email that print as a work order and didn't remember about his text that he change 1/4" longer. Sure this is my fault and just to make him happy I took the bullet and order another shafts. He goes nuts about the delay and demand a ridiculous time to get them to his hands...again I took the bullet to expedite everything and ship them early as promise.

 

Long story short, my wife who normally do the errands missed to deposit his check for about 3 -4 months if I'm not wrong. Guest what again, the check was canceled by this guy. So I texted him...what is going on? And I need the check replacement in 2 weeks. Now this is his answer to me " Hi, Joe. First, please don't threaten me, that was a bad decision on your part. Second, after 90 days, the check is no longer good; you've had the check in your possession for over 120 days. Third, 1 of 2 clubs arrived damaged. Fourth, both clubs were engraved wrong. Fifth, both clubs arrived at the wrong length and at the wrong swingweight which makes me think that you did not put new shafts in after you miscut the originals. If you would like this matter to be handled in court, you are more than welcome to proceed. I will extend to you that I have every conversation with you documented, I have every picture documented, and I have every receipt from the Post Office, PayPal and my bank. And last, I have a poll from a reputable website in which I kept your name private to respect your business in which I posed the question, I received a damaged wedge, what should the builder/seller do to respond? For a gentleman that claims to be so meticulous, you dropped the ball in many areas and demonstrated your lack of responsibility and accountability. "

 

My take on this:

1. He never mentioned he was gonna cancel the check.

2. He kept the wedges and bragged by posting here about his new purchase (imo he never purchase if he canceled the check). It seems to me he doesn't mind with all the mistakes "he claimed" and put the club in play and love them.

3. I have long reputation on how good I can build to specs. Now his words against mine....he think he can bend the words in that text and claimed anything he got in mind to get away with a very nice hand grind Miura wedges for free. Any body who worked with me can vouce for me on this and I have no problem to fix them if the claim is proven that's my fault.

4. I have all everything in writing through out the process....so this guy clearly a PITA and from the get go play hard ball and he use every single excuses to not pay me. His text to me is clearly it's all about him. Just impossible I made that many mistakes on this build. Everybody deals with me know how I wrapped those club in the box.

 

What are my options here to teach this guy a lesson? Honestly the money part I can donate that to the needy. The principal that I'm having a problem with and give this guy a hard lesson. I'm sure he'll try to argue his case, I have no problem to turn all the copy of the conversation and let the judge be the judge. I'm trying to weight in my time and stress level to deal with him. Worth it?

 

Thanks again for all your kindness to give opinions.

 

Yours,

Joe

 

*sorry if I missed type or any of the typo...I'm typing it on my phone :)

 

KARMA IS A B1TCH!

[bcc69]

First of all, a check is good for 6 months. So this guy must have gone out of his way to stop payment on his check. You should ask your bank when he put a stop payment on it.

 

I have seen first hand how meticulous Joe is. He personally fit me in person and over the phone. He personally built my clubs. All of them were to spec. I have no doubt that he went the extra mile for this guy, only to get screwed in the end.

 

This guy should pay up, or return the clubs. If he doesn't, Joe should call him out.

 

Joe, you've long established a great reputation around here. I wouldn't worry about this yo yo screwing it up.

 

Keep up the great work.

[drmlum]

Wow...took the clubs and cancelled payment. That sounds like theft to me.

I've had Joe work on my clubs for years and he always takes his time with expert craftsmanship. If there was any miscommunication, I'm sure Joe and his client could have worked it out to resolve it. Sounds like the client got what he asked for and then decided to rip Joe off. Joe is an expert in the field and runs a professional business. If this person sought you out and asked for your professional work, you should be compensated. This is just unacceptable and the person should be called out.

[joey3108]

To top it off....this guy used my pictures that I took when working on his wedges to post and bragged about it.

[Howard_Jones]

its not worth it, and it never will be.....when you run a business

 

ive been in your shoes, had this player where my intuition told me early that this is not going to turn out good and it did not, so the most important lesson learned was "listen to your intuition.", its not lying to you.

 

If he is that picky about his clubs, why did he not make any complains about the condition when he received them? Receiving without complaining within reasonable time is accepting the order in the condition it had on delivery, but when you deal with folks like this, you will most likely "loose" one way or the other, so ask yourself how much you are willing to pay on top of what you already paid, and to get what?

 

This man no longer has access to a top notch club fitter, and no matter where he goes, he will never be happy, imagine that...no matter how much money he spend or cheat...he will never be happy with his Golf clubs, and there is nothing he can do about that......il quit Golf if i was in his shoes, but this is his own Karma, he will have to deal with it.......... what we send out, always returns, so dont think for a second that this man is happy, he will never be really happy, what a destiny.....by his own choice.

 

What you did just now Joey was maybe the most important for you, simply to get it out for debate so you can clear your mind, but my advice is dont invest to much time or money in this case, its like playing to heavy equipment, it will drain you for your energy as long as that case runs, and your life quality is worth way more than a pair of Miura stics if you should get a economical compensation for all the days and ours he stole of your time AFTER you really did the job.

 

Investing more to save "a bad investment".....often makes the investment even worse, so know when to let go....

[Chomper]

I might have an attorney friend write a letter stating that he either pay for the wedge or expect to head to small claims court.

 

It is sometimes amazing what happens when an officer of the court actually steps into one's life. The bully gets a gut shot and changes their tune.

 

Might be worth a try.

[^m9]

Hey Joe,

 

God, that sounds like a gong show.

 

I'm not sure what to say except I know how meticulous and honest you are with your work.

 

This guy sounds like a really brutal customer. How much truth is there about the damage when the wedges were delivered?

 

The other thing is when he said you could get creative with the stamping, do you have that in writing? I would weigh out how much the wedges cost you vs. any legal battles. Might not be worth the time, money, and hassle to get your money back. Sounds like a real jerk.

 

It's too bad your wife didn't deposit the cheque early enough, but you know what, money can be made back. I had a pretty bad accident with a rental vehicle and it cost me like $4k. I was pissed but paid it and moved forward. Made the money back and forgot about it. I try to avoid stress and enjoy life these days.

 

I probably wouldn't try to publicly shame this guy because it'll make you look bad even if you're fully in the right (which I believe you are because you've been doing custom builds and fitting for so long).

 

My other thought is you could always sell those wedges and get most of your money back. I'm sure there's plenty of deep pocketed Muira fans out there!

 

I hope it all works out and you don't lose too much cash. Let me know if you have any other questions for me.

 

Best,

 

JP

[pitbull808]

WOW! Some crazy stuff there Joe. I've been working with you for over fifteen years now. You've built me drivers, putters, irons, putters and ground wedges for me. I remember initially when we first "met" over the phone I was pretty nervous calling you up because I knew of your reputation of working with great players and perfection. All the qualities I wanted in a club maker but I didn't know if I was good enough a golfer to use your services. I was far from a Professional and it seemed that was a heavy part of your client base.

 

I thought we could have worked it out through emails but you wanted to get a "feel" for me and my thoughts over the phone and playing email tag wasn't working out. I remember calling you up and you made me feel comfortable like an old friend immediately. You asked me my thoughts about what I wanted in a driver, what kind of feel in a shaft, what was my swing speed, my misses etc. You asked me more than I thought you needed to know but when you started to tell me about how you weigh each shaft (way before Tour Issue DG's) and you weigh the grips etc I knew mentally we were on the save wavelength. You were the consummate professional and I even discussed with my local club makers that these are the things and qualities they should be doing to meet the standard that true equipment junkies were looking for in a a club maker. I can honestly say that I'm pretty sure that you have not only influenced what people how been looking for in a club maker and their clubs but actual club makers to step up their game as well throughout the world. You have been the model that many have built their shops to be like.

 

I'm proud to say that you've become a friend to me since that first phone call. I may not be needing any clubs but it doesn't stop me from texting or phoning you to just shoot the bull with you.

 

This is a tough incident for you to get through. One thing I'm sure though is it will not damage your reputation because you've built thousands of clubs for ecstatic customers. I think Howard Jones above said it best, he lost access to a top notch club maker and investing more to save a bad investment makes the investment worse..so know when to let it go :drinks:

[EYEOMATIC]

Joe, there are always going to be people like this in all walks of life. In a service business like we are in, we sometimes have to bite the bullet and remain positive. For every person like this in our game, there are a 100 people just the opposite. Good people, great people. We both have met good and great people Joe, just like when we met in person more than 25 years ago.

 

I will say this publicly. As a former Master Club Fitter, former PGA Clubfitter of the Year, and after having had the pleasure of performing over 10,000 club fittings in a discipline that I love. Joe Kwok is second to none in this important aspect of our game. He has dedicated his life's work to move Clubfitting forward as not only a legitimate business, but as a discipline that is emerging as a "tip of the spear" aspect of our game. I have called Joe many times over the years, even during fittings, for his opinion and thoughts.

 

I am now a retired PGA Pro. I say what I want to say, I answer to no one now(except the big man above, and my wife of course :) ). Joe Kwok represents the best of Clubfitting. He is dedicated, he loves what he does for a living, his expertise as a club fitter is second to none. Whoever this person is that is causing Joe all this grief is just an unhappy person, that will never be happy with anything.

 

Joe Kwok does not need defending from me, but like I said, I say what I want. Hi Joe! All the best, to you and the kids.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Joe, I doubt getting stiffed for the money on this customers bill is an issue... I doubt "teaching a lesson" to this customer is even very viable... I doubt attempting to do so is worth it for you personally/mentally/emotionally... my advice, you'll never have to deal with this one again due to this incident, you are getting off easy... cut this customer loose, then let ALL the other WRX customers/friends/associates come to the defense of Joe Kwok the man.

 

p.s. Joe, absorb all the above postings ^^^^^ and I'm sure all the one to follow below vvvvv

[onafriday]

My take-

 

Grounds for dismissal from these boards. Or at least name and shame for the BST?

 

Second - id be happy to start a go fund me campaign for your out of pocket costs- I'm more than sure the guys on these boards- and there are hundreds- that you've helped will make this right.

 

I find myself asking, 'what does Marcellus Wallace look like?'

 

Pretty lame Joe. But don't let it get you too down. Me and hundreds of guys on these boards enjoy your service and friendship.

 

I take this a little personally. I had a flood in my kitchen a few months ago and guess who volunteered to trek an hour to my house to help diagnose and work out repairs? Joe

Kwok. Hey clown- this is the sort of cat you screwed. One of the good ones.

[dunn]

I dont know you but am sure its this guys problem, have seen and dealt with this exact personality type

 

I work in a field that deals with people and howard is correct.......he was unhappy before you and will be unhappy long after....has nothing to do with you and he would have been upset no marrer what you did.....they want it this way, hard to believe but people like this are because they want to be.......plain and simple

 

If you do have the posts of him bragging about the wedges I am sure that will award you a win legally, but how much is it worth to you.......

[joey3108]

Thank you all again for your opinions and comments.

 

I have no problem with the money he stiffed me with, even it's not a small amount to my level. I feel I don't want him to deal to any of you and members later, especially trying to sell these wedges (should I post the picture what the wedges look like?) or even become a habit to screw other people because he think it's easy. I don't mind to let any attorney to have the money he owe me for his work, yes I don't want a headache either dealing with this stuff at the same time. I completely agrees it's not worth my time and effort on my part. I just don't want any body else got the same from this guy.

 

So at least I can release some tension through this posting. :)

 

BTW for fyi....he mentioned he is a PGA members and asked for a discount. Silly me I didn't check and went for it.

[joey3108]

My take-

 

Grounds for dismissal from these boards. Or at least name and shame for the BST?

 

Second - id be happy to start a go fund me campaign for your out of pocket costs- I'm more than sure the guys on these boards- and there are hundreds- that you've helped will make this right.

 

I find myself asking, 'what does Marcellus Wallace look like?'

 

Pretty lame Joe. But don't let it get you too down. Me and hundreds of guys on these boards enjoy your service and friendship.

 

I take this a little personally. I had a flood in my kitchen a few months ago and guess who volunteered to trek an hour to my house to help diagnose and work out repairs? Joe

Kwok. Hey clown- this is the sort of cat you screwed. One of the good ones.

You are a good friend B! I have no problem helping! :)

[joey3108]

Joe, there are always going to be people like this in all walks of life. In a service business like we are in, we sometimes have to bite the bullet and remain positive. For every person like this in our game, there are a 100 people just the opposite. Good people, great people. We both have met good and great people Joe, just like when we met in person more than 25 years ago.

 

I will say this publicly. As a former Master Club Fitter, former PGA Clubfitter of the Year, and after having had the pleasure of performing over 10,000 club fittings in a discipline that I love. Joe Kwok is second to none in this important aspect of our game. He has dedicated his life's work to move Clubfitting forward as not only a legitimate business, but as a discipline that is emerging as a "tip of the spear" aspect of our game. I have called Joe many times over the years, even during fittings, for his opinion and thoughts.

 

I am now a retired PGA Pro. I say what I want to say, I answer to no one now(except the big man above, and my wife of course :) ). Joe Kwok represents the best of Clubfitting. He is dedicated, he loves what he does for a living, his expertise as a club fitter is second to none. Whoever this person is that is causing Joe all this grief is just an unhappy person, that will never be happy with anything.

 

Joe Kwok does not need defending from me, but like I said, I say what I want. Hi Joe! All the best, to you and the kids.

I'm happy for your retirement Bro! I can't wait for mine, so I can stay away from this kind of people and play more golf again :(.

 

Btw, its a looooong time ago since we started golf forums community huh? Mostly are all good people, only a few bad apples that made me feel can't post that much anymore....plus 2 jobs now sucks!

 

THX again bro!

[ctgolfnut66]

Wow that is pretty crazy. Why not reach out to you when he received the "damaged" wedge and thought that it wasn't built to his specs? Instead he cancels the check in a very passive aggressive move. Sounds like this guy was fishing for something from the beginning.

 

Joe has done a lot of work for me and not once has he ever spec'd out a club incorrectly. He even said "trust me with the stamping" with a set of Scratch custom grinds (still regret getting rid of those to this day). I did and they were the coolest wedges I had ever seen. Instead of stamping the lofts on them, he put one red dot on the 50, 2 dots on the 54, and 3 dots on the 58. I never regretted it. And his SW tolerances are crazy compared to OEM custom departments.

 

With all of the changing of specs and going back and forth, it seems like he was trying to trip you up and set you up for failure in his eyes.

[Golfer from MO]

Joe, send him a postage paid box and get your property back - theft will be on his name her and everywhere and not worth it for him not to return if you guys cant financially settle, then move on....but sad, sorry bro.

[joey3108]

Club condition before I wrapped it up with bubble wrap for shipping.

 

Thanks again guys for comments and opinions!

[joey3108]

Fyi...steelfiber 110cw shaft and lamkin crossline grip.

 

Joe

[HitaHouse]

D-A-double M those are nice looking wedges. I don't have much to add but sorry to hear such a crazy story. Not paying and keeping the clubs kind of says it all.

[mizuno player]

Sucks. He, it appears had this plan in place from the beginning.

 

I would send a registerd letter with a bill saying not paid pay immediately. If he doesn't pay, he wont,send him to collections.

 

In the end it won't be worth pursuing him in court. You will have more in it then he owes.

 

Lesson learned and you guy is always right. Sucks to have this happen. If you're in business you will eventually run it Pepe like this.

 

Good luck.

[nsxguy]

Firstly, at the very least, name the member and put him on the black list here aso this doesn't happen to anyone else here.

 

If the guy is somewhat near you, you can go to his home state and swear out a warrant to have him arrested for stopping payment on that check. Not sure if this is technically "fraud" but it is certainly against the law and is probably a criminal offense similar to passing bad checks. Might even be FEDERAL rather than local.

 

As well, again if he's nearby, take him to Small Claims Court in his state since you won't get him to yours. Bring ALL your email documentation and certainly the check that was stopped and copy the pages here on Golfwrx where he is/was bragging about his wonderful new wedges. That would certainly shoot down and the "they came damaged and Mr Kwok messed them all up" ends up as no defense at all.

 

Good luck,,,,,,,,,

[Wolf4birdie]

Joe,

 

Anybody who has done a transaction with you understands how great you are to deal with.... I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. His loss.

 

Tell him to send you the money or the clubs. Personally I would rather have the clubs back.. He doesn't deserve them!

[EddieEdwards]

Send him a shipping label and ask him to return them.

 

Send his bill to a collection agency.

 

Court seems like too much work.

[Nixhex524]

Man, sucks to have to deal with people sometimes. Just gonna throw this out there and it may be a dumb idea but is there anyway you can throw a lien at this guy till he pays up?

[joey3108]

I hear ya guys and thanks again for comments and opinions!

 

I'm definitely gonna ease up on my stress level by thinking lots of folks out there have and had bigger issue, and I'll be a smarter guy who I'm dealing with.

 

This guy will pay the price whether to me or someone else or the big guy above. I doubt he would comment anything here like he did on my phone text, cuz he knows he was wrong and he is label as a thief now.

 

Just keep an eye for those wedges... it's a sweet one with blood and tears.

 

Cheers!

Joe

[joey3108]

Send him a shipping label and ask him to return them.

 

Send his bill to a collection agency.

 

Court seems like too much work.

I'll weight in your opinions for sure....Thx!

[nitram]

Joe, first of all, you're a straight-up good dude who knows his sh!t.

 

This 'customer' will be the same guy who'll ask you to build him something else in a year or two and not give it a second thought.

 

It's just the way of our world.

 

Write it off and go on. He'll self-destruct, it's just a matter of time.

[darpar1]

I'm still looking for the "long story short"part! :stop:

[Howard_Jones]

I'm still looking for the "long story short"part! :stop:

 

Joe made 2 Miura wedges, he delivered, but he did not get payed......capiche?