Duval v Chamblee

[jacot23]

From 1963 to 1975, there were 8 singles matches in the morning and 8 singles matches in the afternoon of day 3 of the Ryder Cup Matches.

 

Nicklaus played more matches due to this.

 

There was also a time when there were only 10 players on each side.

 

Great Link here: https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Ryder_Cup

 

 

 

 

Thank you, clears up a lot of my confusion.

[jacot23]

I've noted an awful lot of hostility towards Chamblee from some of the forum's members, frequently the discussions then divert to a discussion of Tiger's record. I suspect Brandel's comments regarding Tiger's rules 'issues' a while back were received as a personal attack by Tiger's fan bois, they'll never forgive him.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but my feelings toward Chamblee have nothing to do with Tiger; I don't like either of them.

[KirkNo-yes]

I was playing this morning with a guy who played on tour with BC and DD and we discussed last nights exchange for about 6 holes. Both guys had excellent points and we could argue that both were right. The problem for BC is in his delivery of his message. Not the message. I think that is why everyone is so upset with him. David wasn't saying that everything that Brandel said was flat wrong but that it is not the ONLY thing that determines the outcome. YES the top players need to step up and take a leadership roll. Even if they aren't natural leaders. The younger inexperienced players look up to them. It's a powerful tool in the arsenal of what you need to beat the other side. Brandel just comes across way to arrogant and cocky like his crap doesn't stink. This whole argument last night reminded me of the movie "Moneyball" where Billy Bean was constructing a team based off of analytics and baseball hierarchy was saying it wouldn't win championships. Both sides are right. in the long run the analytics wins because it's math and math doesn't lie. BUT the intangibles are what change the stats and math. like a wrench into an engine. Golf is not baseball and the intangibles effect golf way more than baseball. emotion changes the game of golf more, pairings more than pitching effect outcome in golf more than baseball. Analytics works and Brandel is correct BUT what changes the outcome more is the intangibles of guys NOT expected to be the leaders that win the Ryder Cup. It's the job of the stronger more experienced guys to pump them up and support them. I feel like Duval, each player has just as much responsibility as the next cause a point is a point is a point. period. I learned a long time ago from Mr. Jackie Burke Jr. that when playing team match play you have to play like the match depends on you and you alone. Your partner is there just as window dressing or to keep score. You play the other team like you are playing alone on your own ball to beat them. I think the Euros grasp that more than the Americans. we try to calculate out who works best with each and everyone becomes so delicate to who they are paired with. They all should be able to play together. It shouldn't be that difficult for us to win but somehow we make it out to be like Calculus 4

[denvergolf]

I've noted an awful lot of hostility towards Chamblee from some of the forum's members, frequently the discussions then divert to a discussion of Tiger's record. I suspect Brandel's comments regarding Tiger's rules 'issues' a while back were received as a personal attack by Tiger's fan bois, they'll never forgive him.

Speaking for myself...I raised the Tiger/Jack question not as a fan, or with hostility. Rather, Chamblee made the point that Jack = good and Tiger = bad, and I don't think that's fair.

[BIG STU]

wow, nobillo looked like he wanted to crawl out of there.

ROTFLMAO!! He did look like that and maybe looking for a place to hide when the fists started flying. I laughed more at his reactions than I did the actual arguement

[WHC888]

To blame the result of a team event on two guys is just silly!!

US may have made some mistakes on the pairing or playing order, but focusing on who to blame won't solve the problem.

At the end of the day, Euro outplayed US, they made some unbelieveable putts down the stretch. US simply needs to play better and sink a few more clutch putt.

[pheenomz4774]

We also have to remember some of the teams that Tiger and Phil were no weren't really that amazing. Some of those Ryder Cups the Americans were trounced. And sometimes an old fashioned butt kicking is just that, and not really the result of "poor leadership". Though you would want more leadership qualities out of the top players on your team, golf really doesn't lend itself to creating amazing leaders in a team setting. Tiger was probably one of the worst people you could have lead your team because 1.) he was super competitive and pretty much a jerk the rest of the year and 2.) his level of play probably prevented himself from being able to really provide benefits to those without his skill level.

 

In most cases I'd like to have my best players be my leaders. But in the cases of those extremely crazy competitive athletes like MJ, Tiger, Kobe. I would rather have somebody else be the emotional leader of the team.

[Shilgy]

I was playing this morning with a guy who played on tour with BC and DD and we discussed last nights exchange for about 6 holes. Both guys had excellent points and we could argue that both were right. The problem for BC is in his delivery of his message. Not the message. I think that is why everyone is so upset with him. David wasn't saying that everything that Brandel said was flat wrong but that it is not the ONLY thing that determines the outcome. YES the top players need to step up and take a leadership roll. Even if they aren't natural leaders. The younger inexperienced players look up to them. It's a powerful tool in the arsenal of what you need to beat the other side. Brandel just comes across way to arrogant and cocky like his crap doesn't stink. This whole argument last night reminded me of the movie "Moneyball" where Billy Bean was constructing a team based off of analytics and baseball hierarchy was saying it wouldn't win championships. Both sides are right. in the long run the analytics wins because it's math and math doesn't lie. BUT the intangibles are what change the stats and math. like a wrench into an engine. Golf is not baseball and the intangibles effect golf way more than baseball. emotion changes the game of golf more, pairings more than pitching effect outcome in golf more than baseball. Analytics works and Brandel is correct BUT what changes the outcome more is the intangibles of guys NOT expected to be the leaders that win the Ryder Cup. It's the job of the stronger more experienced guys to pump them up and support them. I feel like Duval, each player has just as much responsibility as the next cause a point is a point is a point. period. I learned a long time ago from Mr. Jackie Burke Jr. that when playing team match play you have to play like the match depends on you and you alone. Your partner is there just as window dressing or to keep score. You play the other team like you are playing alone on your own ball to beat them. I think the Euros grasp that more than the Americans. we try to calculate out who works best with each and everyone becomes so delicate to who they are paired with. They all should be able to play together. It shouldn't be that difficult for us to win but somehow we make it out to be like Calculus 4

I liked this post but find it interesting how different mindsets work about the team aspect. And it is probably up to the captain to make certain similar mindsets are paired. In the Feherty interview from a couple weeks back McGinley stated that he became a better Ryder Cup player when he realized the team DID NOT live and die with his point/match. That it freed him up to play his game.

[Marand]

I've noted an awful lot of hostility towards Chamblee from some of the forum's members, frequently the discussions then divert to a discussion of Tiger's record. I suspect Brandel's comments regarding Tiger's rules 'issues' a while back were received as a personal attack by Tiger's fan bois, they'll never forgive him.

Speaking for myself...I raised the Tiger/Jack question not as a fan, or with hostility. Rather, Chamblee made the point the Jack = good and Tiger = bad, and I don't think that's fair.

I didn't watch it so have no idea of the context.

[QMany]

"I didn't watch, I have no context, but Tiger fan bois..."

 

Cool story, bro.

[sappytop]

was a good debate...i respect both of their opinions but it was brandel who remained calm and laid out his points. DD resorted to snark when he got fired up, kinda like Trump did the other night.

i think to have success, the best players have to play their best and all the intangibles need to be in place. it's a perfect storm.

 

reminds me of the 2004 red sox world series, i don't think they win it without the character of kevin millar and obviously the stolen base by dave roberts in the ALCS. were these two guys the best players? no, but they brought the intangibles and made the storm happen.

[naval2006]

David Duval you rock! And Nobilo right in the middle just watching, impressive piece of golf TV commenting

[Ajit]

Chamblee is such a colossal tool actiing like hes some kind of Ryder Cup expert. Duval shouldve simply said "how many Ryder Cups have you played heck how many PGA wins have you had"

 

For Camblee to say its largely due to Tiger and Phil not caring about the Ryder Cup is why the US is 2-8 in last 20 years is kinda absurd. Sure they were the leaders of those teams but many of those losses are shouldered by players other than them they had no control over Furyk whizzing it down his leg in 2012.

 

 

Europeans like Westwood, Poulter and Garcia get fired up for this because they cant win a major so Ryder Cup is all they base their careers on.

 

Eh?

 

So what about Faldo, Seve, Olazabal, Woosnam, Langer, G Mac, Rory, Kaymer, Rose and Stenson etc?

 

The fact is the US has also had "lesser" players who have performed really well at the Ryder Cup, for example the likes of Dufner, Bradley, JB Holmes, Anthony Kim, Boo Weekly etc. The problem is due to the depth on the PGA tour these guys don't keep qualifying for the US team and get replaced with guys who don't have the right suff.

[augustgolf]

Chamblee is such a colossal tool actiing like hes some kind of Ryder Cup expert. Duval shouldve simply said "how many Ryder Cups have you played heck how many PGA wins have you had"

 

For Camblee to say its largely due to Tiger and Phil not caring about the Ryder Cup is why the US is 2-8 in last 20 years is kinda absurd. Sure they were the leaders of those teams but many of those losses are shouldered by players other than them they had no control over Furyk whizzing it down his leg in 2012.

 

 

Europeans like Westwood, Poulter and Garcia get fired up for this because they cant win a major so Ryder Cup is all they base their careers on.

 

Eh?

 

So what about Faldo, Seve, Olazabal, Woosnam, Langer, G Mac, Rory, Kaymer, Rose and Stenson etc?

 

The fact is the US has also had "lesser" players who have performed really well at the Ryder Cup, for example the likes of Dufner, Bradley, JB Holmes, Anthony Kim, Boo Weekly etc. The problem is due to the depth on the PGA tour these guys don't keep qualifying for the US team and get replaced with guys who don't have the right suff.

 

Dufner 3-1-0

 

Bradley 3-1-0

 

JB Holmes 2-0-1

 

Kim 2-1-1

 

Weekley 2-0-1

 

So...are you saying that the Euros have the same players every year??? Absolutely not

 

You either deal with yourself (like you should every time you tee it up) or you succumb to the pressure...that's what is wrong with most of the recent US losses, IMHO

[Webby58]

Loved this!! How could someone not be enthralled listening to Chamblee. He's as entertaining has golf gets. He goes toe to toe with a former dominant #1, and attacks his generation's leaders for their losing record in the RC!! Preach on BC!!!

 

I agree, This is some of the best entertainment I have ever seen on the Golf Channel. Makes watching golf a little more exciting :)

[Forged4ever]

I really wanted DD to say "well I played on one have you?" When it comes down to it I'll take a guys word for it who's been there before ALL DAY EVERY DAY.

Damn, I Love it!!

 

Very nicely Played!!

 

All the Best,

RP

[Forged4ever]

It's easy to let the mob mentality take over, especially around here, lmao, and while I would take David over Brandel all day every day, that is because I had the pleasure of Playing with him(I owe Maddie big time cuz she was supposed to Play but had a school function to go to, lol). I've spoken to it and him elsewhere. My sentiments echo Kirks.

 

However, My Tour Bud says that Brandel is a good guy, fun to be around and when they were out a couple of evenings with other guys, they were "off the clock" and nothing said was ever brought up again.

 

I've only read nice things about him on the board from guys that have met him, nomatter how briefly, and they said that he was a Gentleman and kind to them.

 

Hey, I get that he's got the 'tude, he can still hit a ball better than 99.99% of ya and he's better lookin to boot and can walk into a room and move through it like a hot knife through butter.

 

Hell, if that ain't a recipe to hate a guy, well, I don't know WhatTF is, lmao.

 

But at the end of the day, he's one of the good guys.

 

Damn, if I was on there, you guys would hate my guts, LMAO

 

All the Best,

RP

[youraway2]

They really need to show Brandel the door. His cocky BS is better suited for a clown show like the WWF and he ruins the 'Live From' experience in about every tournament.

 

Controversy = views. His job is safe.

 

I agree and I just don't understand the Chamblee hate. Let's face it: golf to the masses is boring! I love it, you guys love it, but its dying in part because there is no entertainment value. The players for the most part are mindless robots and don't even get me started about the telecasts. They need to fire nearly all of the announcers besides Feherty/McCord and just start over.

 

Chamblee has some controversial takes. THAT'S A GOOD THING GUYS! His points are thought out and researched. Its not like he is just up there shooting from the hip about garbage he doesn't have a clue on.

 

The fact is that Duval had a hard time defending Tiger because the facts are difficult to deal with. How can you possibly be the #1 and #2 players in the world (for the most part) and have a ridiculous losing record in the Ryder Cup? Its hard to defend. Maybe our idols are not great leaders? That hurts to hear/say but usually the truth does hurt.

 

I love Chamblee on "Live From," we need him on there, golf needs him on there.

Didn't you mean "including"

[KirkNo-yes]

I was playing this morning with a guy who played on tour with BC and DD and we discussed last nights exchange for about 6 holes. Both guys had excellent points and we could argue that both were right. The problem for BC is in his delivery of his message. Not the message. I think that is why everyone is so upset with him. David wasn't saying that everything that Brandel said was flat wrong but that it is not the ONLY thing that determines the outcome. YES the top players need to step up and take a leadership roll. Even if they aren't natural leaders. The younger inexperienced players look up to them. It's a powerful tool in the arsenal of what you need to beat the other side. Brandel just comes across way to arrogant and cocky like his crap doesn't stink. This whole argument last night reminded me of the movie "Moneyball" where Billy Bean was constructing a team based off of analytics and baseball hierarchy was saying it wouldn't win championships. Both sides are right. in the long run the analytics wins because it's math and math doesn't lie. BUT the intangibles are what change the stats and math. like a wrench into an engine. Golf is not baseball and the intangibles effect golf way more than baseball. emotion changes the game of golf more, pairings more than pitching effect outcome in golf more than baseball. Analytics works and Brandel is correct BUT what changes the outcome more is the intangibles of guys NOT expected to be the leaders that win the Ryder Cup. It's the job of the stronger more experienced guys to pump them up and support them. I feel like Duval, each player has just as much responsibility as the next cause a point is a point is a point. period. I learned a long time ago from Mr. Jackie Burke Jr. that when playing team match play you have to play like the match depends on you and you alone. Your partner is there just as window dressing or to keep score. You play the other team like you are playing alone on your own ball to beat them. I think the Euros grasp that more than the Americans. we try to calculate out who works best with each and everyone becomes so delicate to who they are paired with. They all should be able to play together. It shouldn't be that difficult for us to win but somehow we make it out to be like Calculus 4

I liked this post but find it interesting how different mindsets work about the team aspect. And it is probably up to the captain to make certain similar mindsets are paired. In the Feherty interview from a couple weeks back McGinley stated that he became a better Ryder Cup player when he realized the team DID NOT live and die with his point/match. That it freed him up to play his game.

 

I understand what he was saying and I was more implying my match and my match alone. My point being that you can pair me with anyone, I am going to play my game like they don't exist. Not that the whole team depended on my match. That IS undue pressure. Our (U.S.) squad gets waaaay too caught up with who likes who and who plays well with who. It's F'ing golf. Not rowing or something where equal physiology can make or break a team. At the end of the day each person has to believe that they are just as important as the "big guys" to be successful. I agree, thinking you are the only one that can win the whole Ryder Cup is hard on ones self.

[KirkNo-yes]

It's easy to let the mob mentality take over, especially around here, lmao, and while I would take David over Brandel all day every day, that is because I had the pleasure of Playing with him(I owe Maddie big time cuz she was supposed to Play but had a school function to go to, lol). I've spoken to it and him elsewhere. My sentiments echo Kirks.

 

However, My Tour Bud says that Brandel is a good guy, fun to be around and when they were out a couple of evenings with other guys, they were "off the clock" and nothing said was ever brought up again.

 

I've only read nice things about him on the board from guys that have met him, nomatter how briefly, and they said that he was a Gentleman and kind to them.

 

Hey, I get that he's got the 'tude, he can still hit a ball better than 99.99% of ya and he's better lookin to boot and can walk into a room and move through it like a hot knife through butter.

 

Hell, if that ain't a recipe to hate a guy, well, I don't know WhatTF is, lmao.

 

But at the end of the day, he's one of the good guys.

 

Damn, if I was on there, you guys would hate my guts, LMAO

 

All the Best,

RP

 

Ain't nobody got time to hate you Richard!!! Hope you are doing well brother.

 

KN

[Marand]

"I didn't watch, I have no context, but Tiger fan bois..."

 

Cool story, bro.

 

Yeah, it is. My posts are about the Chamblee hate, not whether I ever agree with him. Or whether I think Duval has more credibility on some subjects.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I don't agree with a whole lot of what Chamblee says (and he is the poster boy for smugness) but I think he's the first person I've heard actually come up with a reasonable answer as to why the US ryder cup teams have done so poorly over the last 20 years. Most everyone else just claims it's been this unexplainable phenomenon. I think he's spot on about Phil and Tiger not showing up. Your studs need to be reliable, and not just in singles. If you go into sunday down 4-5 points it doesnt matter. Seve and Ollie won something like 12 out of 14 of their team matches, and Westwood/Clarke, Sergio/Rory, Rose/Stenson have continued in a similar fashion. The rest of the team has less pressure on them because the top players are playing usually all 5 matches and guarantee you a good chunk of points. That is the difference and Brandel's stats back that up. I think the argument got so heated because Duval became defensive when he realized Brandel had made a really strong argument, albeit in a very smug fashion.

[bladehunter]

was a good debate...i respect both of their opinions but it was brandel who remained calm and laid out his points. DD resorted to snark when he got fired up, kinda like Trump did the other night.

i think to have success, the best players have to play their best and all the intangibles need to be in place. it's a perfect storm.

 

reminds me of the 2004 red sox world series, i don't think they win it without the character of kevin millar and obviously the stolen base by dave roberts in the ALCS. were these two guys the best players? no, but they brought the intangibles and made the storm happen.

 

Lol. If you call talking over the person beside you everytime he tried to explain his opinion "calm". I'd say David remained calm as well. He could have came over and reached out and touched someone. Calm is very subjective let's remember.

[bladehunter]

It's easy to let the mob mentality take over, especially around here, lmao, and while I would take David over Brandel all day every day, that is because I had the pleasure of Playing with him(I owe Maddie big time cuz she was supposed to Play but had a school function to go to, lol). I've spoken to it and him elsewhere. My sentiments echo Kirks.

 

However, My Tour Bud says that Brandel is a good guy, fun to be around and when they were out a couple of evenings with other guys, they were "off the clock" and nothing said was ever brought up again.

 

I've only read nice things about him on the board from guys that have met him, nomatter how briefly, and they said that he was a Gentleman and kind to them.

 

Hey, I get that he's got the 'tude, he can still hit a ball better than 99.99% of ya and he's better lookin to boot and can walk into a room and move through it like a hot knife through butter.

 

Hell, if that ain't a recipe to hate a guy, well, I don't know WhatTF is, lmao.

 

But at the end of the day, he's one of the good guys.

 

Damn, if I was on there, you guys would hate my guts, LMAO

 

All the Best,

RP

 

 

 

Totally agree Richard . I bet and think that Chamblee is a decent guy too. And I second that if I were on there you guys would all truly hate my guts. Lol. So I certainly identify . We just saw two type A's butt heads. I'm sure they will shake hands and it's not a big deal.

[tannyhoban]

I actually laughed at how DD's face gradually got full flush. I'd call it a draw. I want to see Philly Mick spar with Brandel, would either of them be able to finish a sentence?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

think they need to go out and have a few too many drinks...... :drinks:

[mizuno player]

I wish they showed Lerner.. what was he doing while that was going on??

 

 

Lerner blacked out.

 

I thought he went for popcorn!!

[bladehunter]

I actually laughed at how DD's face gradually got full flush. I'd call it a draw. I want to see Philly Mick spar with Brandel, would either of them be able to finish a sentence?

 

 

 

Now that i would pay to see!! I doubt Chamblee would get a word in..lol

[mizuno player]

I don't hate Brandel. He is good for GC. Having everyone on a panel think, talk and always agree is boring TV.

 

Hoping for more fireworks this weekend on the Course for the US!!!

[EKELLY]

wow, nobillo looked like he wanted to crawl out of there.

ROTFLMAO!! He did look like that and maybe looking for a place to hide when the fists started flying. I laughed more at his reactions than I did the actual arguement

Frank's probably jealous that Duval will probably replace Miller when he retires, and Frankie still has Brandel to listen to every week.......LOL