Duval v Chamblee

[Marand]

Brandel's job is to attract viewers/readers. This thread is a tribute to his success, the Golf Channel should give him a raise.

[Sun Devil]

Finally ... a little drama on golf channel. I for one welcome more honest, less deliberate dialogue between BC and DD. Love it. DD is finally becoming comfortable in his new job and is doing it well.

 

Off topic, but Lerner is boring. He reminds me of someone who got their job by knowing someone in the company.

[isaacbm]

 

It was awesome at the end. BC is such an Word not allowed.

 

Cool exchange. Duval gettin' a little hot.

 

I have never been a big fan of Chamblee, but on this particular subject he makes a very strong point.

 

Well I know I am in a very tiny group (here) that likes Brandel's contributions to the Golf Channel, and I think too he makes a strong point here.

 

I have met DD and am a fan of his, but the fact that he said "Oh I know because you are never wrong" to Brandel shows a little lack of refinement

when directed to a colleague on national TV. He was pissed indeed.

 

The Euro's just have had of late ( and then some ) the determination and camaraderie that our US team can't match. They have true brotherhood amongst their players. Their captains just have coached their teams better too. I just really hope that the recent passing of Mr. Palmer does something special finally to our team. You just can not let the memory of "The King" not propel you to greatness this time dammit. Now pound that do it for Mr. Palmer or die sentiment into the players DLlll !

 

Chamblee sells snake oil!

 

My problem with Brandle's "analysis" is that he throws out some arbitrary facts (no argument there) then sets up a premise (stated as a fact but it isn't) and then throws it all together as if he "proved a point" when in fact there isn't necessarily anything to connect the dots as if because of "A" we got the result "B:

 

For example:

 

1) Brandle states the facts on who has been sent out first and last over the years, and what their ranking was and what their Ryder records are (ie Mickelson and Tiger played below their world rank). Then;

 

2) Brandle arbitrarily sets the premise that the "first match on Friday and the Last match on Saturday are the most important in Ryder Cup".....(SAYS WHO? BASED ON WHAT?)- not a fact but he suckers us into accepting HIS PREMISE; then;

 

3) Chamblee then takes the true facts in #1, mixes them with his opinion disguised as fact #2 and comes out with #3 "because Mickelson and Tiger played below their rank in the most important games, the US lost..."

 

 

My conclusion Chamblee is a "slicky boy", the kind of 50 year old with a Porsche who could talk a 26 yr old fox out of her clothes.......

yes exactly! Which is why he's good for the show!

[isaacbm]

And just for the record:

 

Brandel did win a tour event. He had 4 2nds, 25 top 10's and 65 top 25's. He won over 4 million on tour.

 

No he's not Duval, but I'd say his record qualifies him to at least have an opinion about professional golf!

[MarkCPA]

BC is doing his job and this thread proves it. He got a reaction from one of the most unemotional players of his generation in Duval.

 

This was nothing more than a mid 70s Saturday Night Live skit.......

 

"Jane, you ignorant slut!"

[Gap22]

I think BC's comment on "leadership" was misinterpreted by DD. What I took him to mean was when you put your best players out, the rest of the team expects them to get points, and when they underperform, it impacts negatively on the rest of the team. The players on the course expect the best players to bring home points, and when they hear that they are losing, it ramps up the pressure on them, and it is something they can "feel in the air." When the best players consistently underperform, it makes it difficult to win a RC. I don't think he meant leadership in a rah rah kind of way. I thought he meant leading by performing well, especially when they go out first on Friday morning or last on Saturday afternoon. It makes a big difference in team play if your best players are bringing home points while the others are still playing on the course, or when the best players are killing it, and you know they are going to be bringing it home in the last match.

[jt2gt]

I think BC's comment on "leadership" was misinterpreted by DD. What I took him to mean was when you put your best players out, the rest of the team expects them to get points, and when they underperform, it impacts negatively on the rest of the team. The players on the course expect the best players to bring home points, and when they hear that they are losing, it ramps up the pressure on them, and it is something they can "feel in the air." When the best players consistently underperform, it makes it difficult to win a RC. I don't think he meant leadership in a rah rah kind of way. I thought he meant leading by performing well, especially when they go out first on Friday morning or last on Saturday afternoon. It makes a big difference in team play if your best players are bringing home points while the others are still playing on the course, or when the best players are killing it, and you know they are going to be bringing it home in the last match.

 

+1 and DD actually reinforced this point when he talked about how players feel something extra from this tournament. He talked about something being in the air or environment. Well...this is part of that. Leaders leading with play, stoking the crowd and other golfers to rise to the occasion. They really weren't having a direct argument. In fact, both of them were saying that there are different factors at play here compared to a regular tournament. BC was just arguing one factor and DD another. So it seemed a bit contrived, but it worked.

[ClintDagger]

Loved this!! How could someone not be enthralled listening to Chamblee. He's as entertaining has golf gets. He goes toe to toe with a former dominant #1, and attacks his generation's leaders for their losing record in the RC!! Preach on BC!!!

I thought DD was losing the exchange which is why he said "I know you're never wrong". That's the card you play when you're comimg up on the short end. Either way I love when these blow ups happen. It's good that they happen rarely because otherwise they would get old; but they are great fodder.

[CAJ4AU]

Can we all share a bottle of wine later, maybe break some bread?

[jt2gt]

Loved this!! How could someone not be enthralled listening to Chamblee. He's as entertaining has golf gets. He goes toe to toe with a former dominant #1, and attacks his generation's leaders for their losing record in the RC!! Preach on BC!!!

I thought DD was losing the exchange which is why he said "I know you're never wrong". That's the card you play when you're comimg up on the short end. Either way I love when these blow ups happen. It's good that they happen rarely because otherwise they would get old; but they are great fodder.

 

Yes...if you ever listen to sports radio and the preferred format these days of having a sports reporter/sports geek and an athlete, usually a football player (like ESPN Mike and Mike)...when the geek is on point and athlete can't figure out how to respond, this is the usually comeback -- either "you're never wrong" or some type of threat (usually in jest like I'll throw you across the room or I'll shut your mouth for you type thing). Usually gets a good laugh, but you know the geek won the exchange.

[denvergolf]

I think BC's comment on "leadership" was misinterpreted by DD. What I took him to mean was when you put your best players out, the rest of the team expects them to get points, and when they underperform, it impacts negatively on the rest of the team. The players on the course expect the best players to bring home points, and when they hear that they are losing, it ramps up the pressure on them, and it is something they can "feel in the air." When the best players consistently underperform, it makes it difficult to win a RC. I don't think he meant leadership in a rah rah kind of way. I thought he meant leading by performing well, especially when they go out first on Friday morning or last on Saturday afternoon. It makes a big difference in team play if your best players are bringing home points while the others are still playing on the course, or when the best players are killing it, and you know they are going to be bringing it home in the last match.

 

+1 and DD actually reinforced this point when he talked about how players feel something extra from this tournament. He talked about something being in the air or environment. Well...this is part of that. Leaders leading with play, stoking the crowd and other golfers to rise to the occasion. They really weren't having a direct argument. In fact, both of them were saying that there are different factors at play here compared to a regular tournament. BC was just arguing one factor and DD another. So it seemed a bit contrived, but it worked.

I'm guessing they felt they were having a direct argument...

[Mookie91]

Personally, Duval was out of line. He took it personally and lost his cool.

 

Chamblee used data to back up his point perfectly.

 

Truth be told, our stud horses haven't produced as expected in this event. Out top 3 should play like it. Yes, there will be a few outliers where someone gets hot and wins, but over the course of a larger sample the better players should win more. It's like any team sport... take football. If the qb decides to show up with an I don't give a flip attitude, then chances are that he will drag the whole offense down. Whether the studs want it or not, they are held up as the leaders.

 

Foursomes and Fourball require TWO guys to play well. Again in singles Tiger is 4-1-1

[Mookie91]

And just for the record:

 

Brandel did win a tour event. He had 4 2nds, 25 top 10's and 65 top 25's. He won over 4 million on tour.

 

No he's not Duval, but I'd say his record qualifies him to at least have an opinion about professional golf!

 

And for the record Wayne Levi was better

[Outlier]

 

It was awesome at the end. BC is such an Word not allowed.

 

Cool exchange. Duval gettin' a little hot.

 

I have never been a big fan of Chamblee, but on this particular subject he makes a very strong point.

 

Well I know I am in a very tiny group (here) that likes Brandel's contributions to the Golf Channel, and I think too he makes a strong point here.

 

I have met DD and am a fan of his, but the fact that he said "Oh I know because you are never wrong" to Brandel shows a little lack of refinement

when directed to a colleague on national TV. He was pissed indeed.

 

The Euro's just have had of late ( and then some ) the determination and camaraderie that our US team can't match. They have true brotherhood amongst their players. Their captains just have coached their teams better too. I just really hope that the recent passing of Mr. Palmer does something special finally to our team. You just can not let the memory of "The King" not propel you to greatness this time dammit. Now pound that do it for Mr. Palmer or die sentiment into the players DLlll !

 

Chamblee sells snake oil!

 

My problem with Brandle's "analysis" is that he throws out some arbitrary facts (no argument there) then sets up a premise (stated as a fact but it isn't) and then throws it all together as if he "proved a point" when in fact there isn't necessarily anything to connect the dots as if because of "A" we got the result "B:

 

For example:

 

1) Brandle states the facts on who has been sent out first and last over the years, and what their ranking was and what their Ryder records are (ie Mickelson and Tiger played below their world rank). Then;

 

2) Brandle arbitrarily sets the premise that the "first match on Friday and the Last match on Saturday are the most important in Ryder Cup".....(SAYS WHO? BASED ON WHAT?)- not a fact but he suckers us into accepting HIS PREMISE; then;

 

3) Chamblee then takes the true facts in #1, mixes them with his opinion disguised as fact #2 and comes out with #3 "because Mickelson and Tiger played below their rank in the most important games, the US lost..."

 

 

My conclusion Chamblee is a "slicky boy", the kind of 50 year old with a Porsche who could talk a 26 yr old fox out of her clothes.......

 

Actually, his premise is not arbitrary. If you go back and look at the stats over the last 7 RCs only one year (2006) did the outcome of the two matches he points out not reflect the winning side. These are crucial matches as the first match on friday, usually includes 1 or 2 of your studs, and sets the tone. And the last match on saturday, again usually the stud(s), can swing momentum going into sunday singles. Kind of like the well-known stat in football where the team that scores in the last 2 min of the first half overwhelmingly ends up winning the game.

 

I'm not a fan of Brandel's TV persona, which as you can see from people who have met him is not his actual personality, but you can't argue that the man does his research and made a sound argument here.

 

2002- Fri first match TW/Azinger (L); Sat last match Hoch/Furyk (H)

2004- Fri first match TW/PM (L); Sat last match TW/DL3 (L)

2006- Fri first match TW/Furyk (W); Sat last match TW/Furyk (W)

2008- PM/AK (H); Boo/JB (W)

2010- PM/DJ (L); PM/Fowler (L)

2012- Furyk/Sneds (L); Duf/ZJ (L)

2014- Bubba/Webb (L); Walker/Fowler (L)

 

I challenge you to do a TRUE analysis, what about the 3rd match each day is that not also equally statistically accurate? What about the fourth match on Friday and the 2nd match on Saturday? Its almost like you are saying that Brandel is brilliant for figuiring out that the team with the most points wins!

[Mookie91]

Brandel's army of haters will continue to bring up useless stats. Bottom line is you need 14 1/2 to win or 14 to retain. The US team hasn't gotten it done. Every player, captain, assistant, etc. is responsible for the lack of success. To pin in it on one or two guys in complete nonsense.

[isaacbm]

And just for the record:

 

Brandel did win a tour event. He had 4 2nds, 25 top 10's and 65 top 25's. He won over 4 million on tour.

 

No he's not Duval, but I'd say his record qualifies him to at least have an opinion about professional golf!

 

And for the record Wayne Levi was better

which also qualifies him to have an opinion.

 

My point is simply that because somebody wasn't on the Ryder Cup or didn't win a major doesn't mean that they can't have an educated opinion about those subjects.

 

This whole forum is filled with people who haven't won major championships or Ryder cups. Do none of our opinions matter?

[denvergolf]

Whether you back Duval, or whether you back Chamblee...can we all agree Ken Schofield needs some new teeth?

[Mookie91]

And just for the record:

 

Brandel did win a tour event. He had 4 2nds, 25 top 10's and 65 top 25's. He won over 4 million on tour.

 

No he's not Duval, but I'd say his record qualifies him to at least have an opinion about professional golf!

 

And for the record Wayne Levi was better

which also qualifies him to have an opinion.

 

My point is simply that because somebody wasn't on the Ryder Cup or didn't win a major doesn't mean that they can't have an educated opinion about those subjects.

 

This whole forum is filled with people who haven't won major championships or Ryder cups. Do none of our opinions matter?

 

There is having an opinion and being an unabashed, condescending, smug jerk about every opinion you have.

[isaacbm]

And just for the record:

 

Brandel did win a tour event. He had 4 2nds, 25 top 10's and 65 top 25's. He won over 4 million on tour.

 

No he's not Duval, but I'd say his record qualifies him to at least have an opinion about professional golf!

 

And for the record Wayne Levi was better

which also qualifies him to have an opinion.

 

My point is simply that because somebody wasn't on the Ryder Cup or didn't win a major doesn't mean that they can't have an educated opinion about those subjects.

 

This whole forum is filled with people who haven't won major championships or Ryder cups. Do none of our opinions matter?

 

There is having an opinion and being an unabashed, condescending, smug jerk about every opinion you have.

You're completely missing my point. My point is that people have come onthis thread and other threads and said that because Chamblee has never won a major or played in the Ryder Cup he should shut his mouth. The whole point of my post was to refute that point. whether you like him or hate him he's still entitled to have an opinion. And his opinion carries more water than every single poster on this site. doesn't mean he's right just means that he has plenty enough experience in professional golf to deserve to have an opinion!

[Cool Hand Luke]

 

I challenge you to do a TRUE analysis, what about the 3rd match each day is that not also equally statistically accurate? What about the fourth match on Friday and the 2nd match on Saturday? Its almost like you are saying that Brandel is brilliant for figuiring out that the team with the most points wins!

 

Obviously all the matches are worth the same amount of points. Brandel came up with a hypothesis- the reason the US has not done well over the last 20 years is that our best players have not shown up in the team format matches. So naturally, to prove his point he looked at the records in those matches and lo and behold those are the two matches the best players are in. Do you think that's a coincidence? Who did both captains send out first this morning? Their two strongest teams. There are a lot of other factors at play, no doubt. If you have a guy that plays insane like poulter, then that alone can win a ryder cup. But you can't argue that our best players have not played well over the last 20 years and its not hard to connect those dots.

 

Again, I'm not a fan of Brandel's on air persona, but that is what he gets paid to be and do. In this particular debate, he challenged Duval's opinion and backed it up with strong supporting evidence. His premises were not arbitrary, and definitely not 'snake oil'. It was debate 101. Duval lost his cool and resorted to cheap shots - 'i know you're never wrong' and 'i know because i played in the ryder cup'.

[denvergolf]

And just for the record:

 

Brandel did win a tour event. He had 4 2nds, 25 top 10's and 65 top 25's. He won over 4 million on tour.

 

No he's not Duval, but I'd say his record qualifies him to at least have an opinion about professional golf!

 

And for the record Wayne Levi was better

which also qualifies him to have an opinion.

 

My point is simply that because somebody wasn't on the Ryder Cup or didn't win a major doesn't mean that they can't have an educated opinion about those subjects.

 

This whole forum is filled with people who haven't won major championships or Ryder cups. Do none of our opinions matter?

 

There is having an opinion and being an unabashed, condescending, smug jerk about every opinion you have.

You're completely missing my point. My point is that people have come onthis thread and other threads and said that because Chamblee has never won a major or played in the Ryder Cup he should shut his mouth. The whole point of my post was to refute that point. whether you like him or hate him he's still entitled to have an opinion. And his opinion carries more water than every single poster on this site. doesn't mean he's right just means that he has plenty enough experience in professional golf to deserve to have an opinion!

Jason Gore posts on here, so not every single poster...I know I'm being a pain in the a**...

[isaacbm]

OK LOL !

 

I can be a pain in the a** too.

 

Brandel has 10 more top tens and almost 30 more top 25's and they have about the same earnings .

 

In all serious though, what's the point of even having a golf forum if your questioned for your opinion just because of your playing record?

[lkangsterl]

does anyone else think that BC's STATS arguments don't matter because for there to be any sort of analysis, you need to have 26 samples, or 26 Ryder Cups. for the 10 or so he's looking at, anything could and did happen.

[tannyhoban]

does anyone else think that BC's STATS arguments don't matter because for there to be any sort of analysis, you need to have 26 samples, or 26 Ryder Cups. for the 10 or so he's looking at, anything could and did happen.

Does it matter? It's still a trend.

[Railroading13]

BC was wrong - on DD side on this one... one player's "leadership" in a golf event means nothing! On top of that, leadership is supposed to come from the captain. How BC could blame Tiger or Phil for those losses is beyond me

[Browns71213]

Looks like they've kissed and made up.

 

https://twitter.com/chambleebrandel/status/781971168177844226

[Mookie91]

So does Brandel blame Spieth's and Reed's choke job on Jordan's or Dustin's lack of leadership?

[isaacbm]

Looks like they've kissed and made up.

 

https://twitter.com/chambleebrandel/status/781971168177844226

 

Like I said, his on air persona and his real persona is a little different!

[RobotDoctor]

Brandel Chamblee seems to be morphing into today's Jimmy Roberts. I am getting tired of his style and critique.

[Hawkeye77]

Brandel Chamblee seems to be morphing into today's Jimmy Roberts. I am getting tired of his style and critique.

 

Jimmy Roberts has never been a jerk or bullying maniac. He is short.