Challenge: Fly it 300+, bench, squat and deadlift 3,4,5 plates, respectively.

[golferdude54]

Had to resurrect this thread because Kyle Berkshire and Seb Twaddell, two prominent long drivers who trade the world record ball speed back and forth, have videos of doing the compound lifts.
 

Berkshire said doing the compound lifts helped him get up to 240 MPH ball speed which is nuts.

 

So I decided to foray into powerlifting and have made personal goals of lifting exactly as the title said; being able to bench 315, squat 405, and deadlift 495 in the next year. 

[hammersia]

Oh God no not this thread again. I still have nightmares about it. 

[Trippels]

2 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

Had to resurrect this thread because Kyle Berkshire and Seb Twaddell, two prominent long drivers who trade the world record ball speed back and forth, have videos of doing the compound lifts.
 

Berkshire said doing the compound lifts helped him get up to 240 MPH ball speed which is nuts.

 

So I decided to foray into powerlifting and have made personal goals of lifting exactly as the title said; being able to bench 315, squat 405, and deadlift 495 in the next year. 

Those lifts are beyond what Berkshire can do, he benches 225 and deadlifts under 400 by his own words.

The strength level you need before it is no longer a restricting factor compared to technique and speed training is not very high.

If you want to get strong for the sake of it, go ahead and chase those numbers, but they won't help you get really fast on their own, nor are they needed for anyone to be fit in general.

 

[Ajgaguy83]

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

Those lifts are beyond what Berkshire can do, he benches 225 and deadlifts under 400 by his own words.

The strength level you need before it is no longer a restricting factor compared to technique and speed training is not very high.

If you want to get strong for the sake of it, go ahead and chase those numbers, but they won't help you get really fast on their own, nor are they needed for anyone to be fit in general.

 

Just came to say the same. This would be at a level of diminishing returns for 99.9% of golfers. The time and sacrifices it would take to reach those strength levels will cost more to your golf game than you can imagine.  The juice isn’t worth the squeeze if improving your golf is a greater priority. 

[Sean124]

I’ve never reached a single one of those lifting numbers even at my peak. At 42 with a fake hip and a knee that needs to be replaced, I’m far from my peak. 
 

But with good technique and still being decently strong, I hit the ball farther than I did when I was 30. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

3 hours ago, Trippels said:

Those lifts are beyond what Berkshire can do, he benches 225 and deadlifts under 400 by his own words.

The strength level you need before it is no longer a restricting factor compared to technique and speed training is not very high.

If you want to get strong for the sake of it, go ahead and chase those numbers, but they won't help you get really fast on their own, nor are they needed for anyone to be fit in general.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Just came to say the same. This would be at a level of diminishing returns for 99.9% of golfers. The time and sacrifices it would take to reach those strength levels will cost more to your golf game than you can imagine.  The juice isn’t worth the squeeze if improving your golf is a greater priority. 

Was gonna say the same. Berkshire does lift hard, but he's not gonna sacrifice the other things to put in the time needed to get stronger as he's obviously not a freak when it comes to naturally having strength. If I had to guess a safe ballpark to "max" at (without being able to consider individual circumstances) with strength numbers might be ~1.5X BW squat and 2X BW Deadlift. With the caveats of 1- not spending excessive time chasing these numbers at the expense of other areas, 2- it's positively affecting your KPI's (aka metrics you care about whether golf related or otherwise). If you're at those numbers more almost certainly isn't going to matter, and for some it may very well be lower than this.

[bluedot]

I know guys who can hit it 300 and don’t lift, and guys that lift and can’t hit it 300.  
 

The primary limitation on length for most people isn’t strength; it’s technique.  No matter how strong they get, they won’t get longer because their swing simply isn’t good enough.  For others, the limits are set by a lack of mobility, especially in their hips and shoulders. Again, stronger for them won’t mean longer.
 

For most, the best “weight room” gains will come from a LOT of eccentric work, a lot of mobility work, and steady work with the basic compound lifts.  Yes, your body has to be strong enough to support (and withstand!) crazy high swing speeds.  But that has very little to do with the kind of numbers this thread is talking about.  Kyle Berkshire is living proof of that.

[bm11]

I can close to those weights, it's been a long time since I've done singles though. I partially tore my right pec close gripping 385 on my 7th set of 3 training for a powerlifting comp when my goal was to beat the state deadlifting record of 820. At that time, I could (raw) bench in the 4's with a pause, squat in the 6's for sets of 5 below parallel, and deadlift in the 7's without straps. Since that time I've gone to a much lighter, much more lean version of myself that's a lot less powerful. I can (as of today) bench 225 for 3 sets of 12 carefully (I don't want to reinjure the pec), squat 335 for 3 sets of 10 below parallel, and deadlift 425 for sets of 5. If I increased calories and focused on powerlifting over the winter, I'm confident I could achieve the weight goals.

 

I am not confident I could drive 300 by the end of the same time period though. 

[golferdude54]

17 hours ago, Trippels said:

Those lifts are beyond what Berkshire can do, he benches 225 and deadlifts under 400 by his own words.

The strength level you need before it is no longer a restricting factor compared to technique and speed training is not very high.

If you want to get strong for the sake of it, go ahead and chase those numbers, but they won't help you get really fast on their own, nor are they needed for anyone to be fit in general.

 

I’m a single guy in my 20s and not making 6 figures a year, I need to get strong to impress the cart girl obviously.

[SNIPERBBB]

12 hours ago, bluedot said:

I know guys who can hit it 300 and don’t lift, and guys that lift and can’t hit it 300.  
 

The primary limitation on length for most people isn’t strength; it’s technique.  No matter how strong they get, they won’t get longer because their swing simply isn’t good enough.  For others, the limits are set by a lack of mobility, especially in their hips and shoulders. Again, stronger for them won’t mean longer.
 

For most, the best “weight room” gains will come from a LOT of eccentric work, a lot of mobility work, and steady work with the basic compound lifts.  Yes, your body has to be strong enough to support (and withstand!) crazy high swing speeds.  But that has very little to do with the kind of numbers this thread is talking about.  Kyle Berkshire is living proof of that.

I can carry it 280 when swinging well and back in my high school days I couldn't bench 100 without cheating lol. If it weren't for baseball conditioning I probably wouldn't of lifted at all. 

[LongNwrong27]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:42 AM, golferdude54 said:

Had to resurrect this thread because Kyle Berkshire and Seb Twaddell, two prominent long drivers who trade the world record ball speed back and forth, have videos of doing the compound lifts.
 

Berkshire said doing the compound lifts helped him get up to 240 MPH ball speed which is nuts.

 

So I decided to foray into powerlifting and have made personal goals of lifting exactly as the title said; being able to bench 315, squat 405, and deadlift 495 in the next year. 

Tons of college kids who prob cant do 2/3/4 and yet they fly it 320 

[ac6]

5 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Tons of college kids who prob cant do 2/3/4 and yet they fly it 320 

 

Plus tons of junior golfers who have never trained and can easily fly it close to 300. Golf clubs are light--you don't need a ton of raw strength to move one at high speed.  

[b.mattay]

1 hour ago, ac6 said:

 

Plus tons of junior golfers who have never trained and can easily fly it close to 300. Golf clubs are light--you don't need a ton of raw strength to move one at high speed.  

Exactly. I can't do 1/2/3 and can fly it 300 fairly comfortably. 

[LongNwrong27]

To be clear I think having some reasonable proficiency in the compounds is good but even like a 2/3/4 plate standard would be very good and vast vast majority of elite tour players could not squat 315 with reasonable form. 
 

3/4/5 is way overkill for golf , but a fun goal just for training purposes and general strength 

[BombinJim]

I’ve got the 4/5 part but have a poverty bench of ~265. Can carry it 300 depending on the day but it’s my swing flaws that hold me back.

[bluedot]

3 hours ago, BombinJim said:

I’ve got the 4/5 part but have a poverty bench of ~265. Can carry it 300 depending on the day but it’s my swing flaws that hold me back.

You are being held back by the same thing as most of us.

 

Just for info purposes, here’s what Par4Success (Kyle Berkshire has done some training and rehab there) gives as enough strength to support really high swing speeds and prevent injury:

1. Bench  1.25x body weight

2. Squats   1.5x body weight 

3. Deadlifts  1.75x body weight

 

Using 180 lbs as a body weight, that means 240/285/335.  But the important thing to note is that those numbers do NOT enable you to hit it 300 yds; they DO support that speed and keep you from getting hurt.  And there is no real evidence that going way beyond those numbers is important or beneficial.

[golfortennis]

On 11/8/2023 at 6:48 AM, Ajgaguy83 said:

Just came to say the same. This would be at a level of diminishing returns for 99.9% of golfers. The time and sacrifices it would take to reach those strength levels will cost more to your golf game than you can imagine.  The juice isn’t worth the squeeze if improving your golf is a greater priority. 

 

Actually, no.  Pretty much any healthy male who DTFP, as Rippetoe would put it, can get there pretty quickly.  Novice athletes can get there.     

[Ajgaguy83]

1 minute ago, golfortennis said:

 

Actually, no.  Pretty much any healthy male who DTFP, as Rippetoe would put it, can get there pretty quickly.  Novice athletes can get there.     

 

We can agree to disagree. Rip's a good dude. But to DTP as Rip wants for the NLP and to get to these levels most would have to gain substantial weight. Rip himself has indicated this could be 70 pounds of weight gain for some, others obviously could be far less, still more for those starting at a very light build....... Gaining significant weight and strength can drastically change a golfers motion and not always for the better.

 

Starting Strength is a great program. So are lots of other lifting programs that also allow individuals to get stronger. As mentioned in this thread already, there are a lot of 150-170lb soaking wet young ams that can easily fly it this distance that couldn't bench their weight. That tells us something...... If the world's fastest ball and swing speeds are generated by someone who hasn't chased these numbers then we can also infer that, like many things in life, you reach diminishing returns at a point if golfing ability is the primary concern.

 

I'm all for the big lifts, but how many PGA professionals can post these numbers? I'd venture that that percentage represents how necessary this is.

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

 

We can agree to disagree. Rip's a good dude. But to DTP as Rip wants for the NLP and to get to these levels most would have to gain substantial weight. Rip himself has indicated this could be 70 pounds of weight gain for some, others obviously could be far less, still more for those starting at a very light build....... Gaining significant weight and strength can drastically change a golfers motion and not always for the better.

 

Starting Strength is a great program. So are lots of other lifting programs that also allow individuals to get stronger. As mentioned in this thread already, there are a lot of 150-170lb soaking wet young ams that can easily fly it this distance that couldn't bench their weight. That tells us something...... If the world's fastest ball and swing speeds are generated by someone who hasn't chased these numbers then we can also infer that, like many things in life, you reach diminishing returns at a point if golfing ability is the primary concern.

 

I'm all for the big lifts, but how many PGA professionals can post these numbers? I'd venture that that percentage represents how necessary this is.

They can fly it that distance weighing nothing more than a wet paper bag, but for how long?  How did Will Zalatoris hold up?  There is a point of diminishing returns as you say, but I think that point is a lot further on.  It isn't just about hitting it 320 now, it's about being able to do it for a very long time.  Strength helps that.  Agreed that 70 lbs additional weight can throw things off, but these guys can put a fair bit of weight(muscle) on before it throws things off. 

[golferdude54]

The skinny college guys who carry it 300+ have “fake” speed, look at their left foot at address and where it ends up at impact and the finish, it is miles from where it started. 
 

Same with their knees and right heel, they straighten the sh** out of their knees and are up on their right toe like a ballerina during impact, that is not sustainable at all.

 

Straightening their knees along with dipping their head backwards and the tilt of their shoulders being SOO uneven compared to their hips = multiple herniated discs and back surgery in mid 20s, just ask Zalatoris.

[CSagan]

I did Starting Strength and love Rip...I think I was 155 when I started and was 190 like 6 months later and could squat 365 (RIP would disown me for never getting to 200lbs)...had bigger legs and talking about a poverty bench! lol I remember doing smolov JR program just to get my bench up to 240..tall skinny guy problems. Now I just do maintenance compound lifts...Squat, Deads, OHP, Bench and Chin ups. I'm around 120-122 on the course and do think just doing some lifting keeps everything stretched out and supportive of fast speeds. If i was trying to get to 3/4/5 Id have to be fat and would probably have a higher chance of being injured trying to get there. 315 bench is pretty dang crazy for a natty adult male...had plenty of juiced up friends that could rock it.

 

@golferdude54 mentioned "fake speed" haha...thats the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Does Berkshire have fake speed too? He does that stuff the most. Its just how you create speed. Tiger was doing it late 90's swinging 130mph with that cobra driver.

[golfing_penguin]

On 11/11/2023 at 12:07 PM, golferdude54 said:

The skinny college guys who carry it 300+ have “fake” speed, look at their left foot at address and where it ends up at impact and the finish, it is miles from where it started. 
 

Same with their knees and right heel, they straighten the sh** out of their knees and are up on their right toe like a ballerina during impact, that is not sustainable at all.

 

Straightening their knees along with dipping their head backwards and the tilt of their shoulders being SOO uneven compared to their hips = multiple herniated discs and back surgery in mid 20s, just ask Zalatoris.

Kyle Berkshire, Joe Miller and the rest of those guys and gals have fake speed too I'm presume?

[LongNwrong27]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:07 PM, golferdude54 said:

The skinny college guys who carry it 300+ have “fake” speed, look at their left foot at address and where it ends up at impact and the finish, it is miles from where it started. 
 

Same with their knees and right heel, they straighten the sh** out of their knees and are up on their right toe like a ballerina during impact, that is not sustainable at all.

 

Straightening their knees along with dipping their head backwards and the tilt of their shoulders being SOO uneven compared to their hips = multiple herniated discs and back surgery in mid 20s, just ask Zalatoris.

Justin Thomas is like a twig and has been flying it 300+ for quite a while. Highly disagree with you. 

[Albatross Dreamer]

A few thoughts based on this last page, but not gonna multi-quote. These are just off the top of my head so prob forgot some stuff and all that.

 

1- Relative strength (%) is typically going to work better for comparing people and giving numbers to strive for vs absolute numbers

2- Strength to start is going to help injury prevention, then at some point it does become a limiting factor in gaining more speed. Where that is depends on the person

3- Another role of strength is physiological reserve. If your strength level is higher than what the activity demands then you can handle more volume

4- Those considering that the golf club is light so don't need strength forget that we're managing and producing force via the ground, so lower body strength is going to be important

5- Strength is specific. Lifting weights is simply a means to develop strength in a general area or movement pattern. Some times an athlete is reasonably strong, but their squat/whatever lift might suck if they never do it.

6- Going off #5 things like heavy weights are simply one way to develop strength

7- Using high level golfers as the reason to/not to do something is very flawed for a variety of reasons. There's also a reason nearly every single one of them does strength training of some kind.

8- Amongst some of the reasons pro athletes may not do something are: they're already playing at the highest level, they don't have a true off-season, the risk/benefit analysis is different for them, they've likely developed a fair amount of specific strength if they've been playing the sport since they were a kid, so on.

9- Every person is going to have a level of strength/speed/power/etc that's right for them. That's why it's so important to monitor your game and see where that is for you.

 

10- the way I think about it is tier 1 is technique and mobility are the most direct ways to improve swing speed. Put mobility there since while you can work around a mobility issue, it's always easier if you got it. Then tier 2 would be speed training and strength training. These contribute, but not necessarily directly (speed training prob more so than strength). Which one the person needs more off depends. Tier 3 would be other things such as nutrition, lifestyle factors, etc. These are the things that don't necessarily add speed, but they can hold you back (there's actually a term for it but I forget what it is)

Edited November 13, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer