Fast and loose with a wrong ball

[Ranchobob]

Played at Skylinks in Long Beach this week, walking on as a single and got paired with three guys.

 

On one par 5, I had flared my drive off into the trees and went off on my merry way while the other guys went down the fairway. Punched out and the ball ran a mile. Very happy. Walk up to the area where all of our second shots have come to rest.

 

Walk up to what I think is my ball and it's not. Turns out that one of the guys hit my ball. Under tournament circumstances, I'd have gone up to the green, grabbed my ball, and walked back, placed (dropped?) it in approximately the same spot and no closer to the hole and hit my third.

 

But it's a public muni with lots of folks, so I dropped a new ball, hit it onto the green and started walking.

 

Got up to the green and my second ball is there, but not the first that the other guy hit. Nor, in fact, is the ball he hit his original ball. (Let's have a big shout out for public golf here.) So I walk backwards now with a couple wedges, thinking one of the balls behind us (the folks behind are hitting very long second or layup third shots) has to be mine. Sure enough, my ball had run out a lot farther than I thought. Hit my original ball onto the green, two putts, and mark my par. (Yeah, not legit, but it'd just pad my index if I kicked myself up to an ESC 7. I'm more vigilant about the rules during tournament golf than hacking it around for fun.)

 

So what do we have for me? 2 strokes for a wrong ball? By the rules, do I have to go to the green and confirm it was my ball he hit? Does his saying that he'd hit my ball change anything? What if he'd hit it out of play?

 

Amusing event, regardless.

[Sawgrass]

By the rules, do I have to go to the green and confirm it was my ball he hit? Does his saying that he'd hit my ball change anything? What if he'd hit it out of play?

 

 

If I'm understanding you correctly your real score was a 7: Drive, long punch, 2sp for hitting an inappropriately substituted ball from a wrong place (serious breach), pitch and two-putt with original ball from proper place.

 

You don't have to "go" anywhere, and it doesn't matter to your score what an outside agency/fellow competitor does or says. What you have to do is be sure you're playing your ball from the correct place, if travel is involved, then so be it. If someone mistakenly hit's your ball, it's still your responsibility to know that (as unfair as that may seem) and still find your ball in time to play it before it becomes lost by the clock.

[Sawgrass]

By the way, if you inappropriately dropped and played a ball, it's not a "wrong ball." Thinking it is will get things confused.

[rogolf]

By the rules, do I have to go to the green and confirm it was my ball he hit? Does his saying that he'd hit my ball change anything? What if he'd hit it out of play?

 

 

If I'm understanding you correctly your real score was a 7: Drive, long punch, 2sp for hitting an inappropriately substituted ball from a wrong place (serious breach), pitch and two-putt with original ball from proper place.

 

You don't have to "go" anywhere, and it doesn't matter to your score what an outside agency/fellow competitor does or says. What you have to do is be sure you're playing your ball from the correct place, if travel is involved, then so be it. If someone mistakenly hit's your ball, it's still your responsibility to know that (as unfair as that may seem) and still find your ball in time to play it before it becomes lost by the clock.

SG, not sure how you arrived at a 7 as his score? He played two strokes at his original ball. Then thought (incorrectly) that someone had played his original ball, so substituted another ball (2 ps) and then made a stroke at the substituted ball (now his ball in play). Putting this second ball into play made his original ball lost. When he returned to it and played it, he incurred a two stroke penalty for playing a wrong ball. He likely picked up his ball in play (the substituted ball) without marking it, a breach of Rule 20-1 (one stroke penalty).

Let's recap:

2 strokes with his original ball

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted, and at a wrong place - no serious breach

1 stroke to the green with the substituted ball

2 ps for playing a wrong ball (strokes made with this ball do not count in his score)

1 ps for picking up his ball in play without marking it

So that's 8 so far. His correct procedure is to replace the substituted ball on the green and hole out with it. If he fails to do this before playing from the next teeing ground, he is DQ.

[Sawgrass]

By the rules, do I have to go to the green and confirm it was my ball he hit? Does his saying that he'd hit my ball change anything? What if he'd hit it out of play?

 

 

If I'm understanding you correctly your real score was a 7: Drive, long punch, 2sp for hitting an inappropriately substituted ball from a wrong place (serious breach), pitch and two-putt with original ball from proper place.

 

You don't have to "go" anywhere, and it doesn't matter to your score what an outside agency/fellow competitor does or says. What you have to do is be sure you're playing your ball from the correct place, if travel is involved, then so be it. If someone mistakenly hit's your ball, it's still your responsibility to know that (as unfair as that may seem) and still find your ball in time to play it before it becomes lost by the clock.

SG, not sure how you arrived at a 7 as his score? He played two strokes at his original ball. Then thought (incorrectly) that someone had played his original ball, so substituted another ball (2 ps) and then made a stroke at the substituted ball (now his ball in play). Putting this second ball into play made his original ball lost. When he returned to it and played it, he incurred a two stroke penalty for playing a wrong ball. He likely picked up his ball in play (the substituted ball) without marking it, a breach of Rule 20-1 (one stroke penalty).

Let's recap:

2 strokes with his original ball

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted, and at a wrong place - no serious breach

1 stroke to the green with the substituted ball

2 ps for playing a wrong ball (strokes made with this ball do not count in his score)

1 ps for picking up his ball in play without marking it

So that's 8 so far. His correct procedure is to replace the substituted ball on the green and hole out with it. If he fails to do this before playing from the next teeing ground, he is DQ.

 

I did not understand the story, your understanding seems right after reflection.

[Stuart_G]

So what do we have for me? 2 strokes for a wrong ball? By the rules, do I have to go to the green and confirm it was my ball he hit? Does his saying that he'd hit my ball change anything? What if he'd hit it out of play?

 

I think the main question here has to do with what is required to be able to proceed under 18-1. And the answer is that it's not enough just to suspect that someone else has hit your ball, it needs to be "known or virtually certain" that someone else really did hit your ball.

 

From 18-1:

 

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

 

Same applies to 18-3 for match play.

 

To get a better understanding of "Known or Virtually Certain" dec 26-1/1 is the best reference.

 

In your particular case, since you likely couldn't be virtually certain at the point where the ball was played, that might have meant having to go to the green to ID the ball your FC hit, but in other cases it might not so you don't always have to make a positive ID on the ball hit. Largely depends on the lay of the land and how well you knew the actual position of your ball _before_ the other person hit the ball in question.

 

Just realize that you only have 5 minutes to find your ball, going all the way to the green and back can use up a lot of time and if the ball he hit was not yours, you could end up with a lost ball if you come back and find your own ball but it's outside of that time limit.

[Stuart_G]

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted, and at a wrong place - no serious breach

 

Curious about that part. We know he dropped near where his ball really was or might have been, but that was more hindsight. Technically speaking his ball had not been found when he made the drop (and it doesn't sound like there was enough grounds for virtual certainty that the FC hit his ball), so doesn't that make the 'correct place' for a drop the place from where he had made the previous stroke (as if proceeding under 27-1), not where the yet to be found ball turned out to be? If that's the case, then wouldn't it more typically be considered a serious breach? And also not an illegal substitution since 27-1 allows for substitution?

[Newby]

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted,

 

Why?

 

Note 1 to Rule 18

 

Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

[rogolf]

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted,

 

Why?

 

Note 1 to Rule 18

 

Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

Rule 18-1 requires KVC, are you suggesting that this player had KVC? (Stuart has proposed something different, which also has merits.)

 

Please give us your ruling when, as a referee, you have just been presented with the information in the original post, without any further clarification.

[Mr. Bean]

This is a case that makes the referee's head spin, especially when it happens on the last group on the course at hole #17 on the final day of the competition...

 

Obviously we do not have enough accurate information to make a solid ruling here but it is good entertainment to weigh different options.

[Newby]

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted,

 

Why?

 

Note 1 to Rule 18

 

Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

Rule 18-1 requires KVC, are you suggesting that this player had KVC? (Stuart has proposed something different, which also has merits.)

 

Please give us your ruling when, as a referee, you have just been presented with the information in the original post, without any further clarification.

 

" Turns out that one of the guys hit my ball. Under tournament circumstances, I'd have gone up to the green, grabbed my ball, and walked back, placed (dropped?) it in approximately the same spot and no closer to the hole and hit my third. "

 

That suggests he knew his ball was a some distance away on the green. How would he know to act differently in tournament conditions?

I think "Turns out that ..." is misleading as it implies he found out later.

[Mr. Bean]

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted,

 

Why?

 

Note 1 to Rule 18

 

Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

Rule 18-1 requires KVC, are you suggesting that this player had KVC? (Stuart has proposed something different, which also has merits.)

 

Please give us your ruling when, as a referee, you have just been presented with the information in the original post, without any further clarification.

 

" Turns out that one of the guys hit my ball. Under tournament circumstances, I'd have gone up to the green, grabbed my ball, and walked back, placed (dropped?) it in approximately the same spot and no closer to the hole and hit my third. "

 

That suggests he knew his ball was a some distance away on the green. How would he know to act differently in tournament conditions?

I think "Turns out that ..." is misleading as it implies he found out later.

 

And if we go on from there that ball is the ball in play and the original ball is lost, unless the original ball is so much closer to the green that continuing with the substituted would be a serious breach.... and when the player continues with his original ball he is playing a wrong ball and....

 

What a mess...

[rogolf]

2 ps for substituting a ball when not permitted,

 

Why?

 

Note 1 to Rule 18

 

Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

Rule 18-1 requires KVC, are you suggesting that this player had KVC? (Stuart has proposed something different, which also has merits.)

 

Please give us your ruling when, as a referee, you have just been presented with the information in the original post, without any further clarification.

 

" Turns out that one of the guys hit my ball. Under tournament circumstances, I'd have gone up to the green, grabbed my ball, and walked back, placed (dropped?) it in approximately the same spot and no closer to the hole and hit my third. "

 

That suggests he knew his ball was a some distance away on the green. How would he know to act differently in tournament conditions?

I think "Turns out that ..." is misleading as it implies he found out later.

 

I don't think he "knew" anything. Suspicion that someone has hit your ball in play isn't even close to KVC. You haven't provided your ruling for the information provided in the original post? The player is waiting for the outcome!

[Newby]

In order to provide a 'ruling', I need to know just what the OP knew or was told. Did the other player tell him he had it his ball? If so when? How did he (the other player) know?

When did the OP know he had played the 'wrong'/substituted ball?

[rogolf]

In order to provide a 'ruling', I need to know just what the OP knew or was told. Did the other player tell him he had it his ball? If so when? How did he (the other player) know?

When did the OP know he had played the 'wrong'/substituted ball?

 

A couple of us provided responses based on the information in the original post. Others have asked questions and suggested alternative outcomes, or have been seemingly critical of them.

I would like to see your response based on the information provided in the original post (no further info available) so that we can discuss its merits.

[Newby]

I have already said. IMO, the ball was substituted legally under note 1.

 

Thought we were discussing it's merits or otherwise

[Stuart_G]

rogolf - some clarification for your ruling would be helpful as well. Under what rule did you judge the player was dropping such that there was both a 2 stroke penalty for improper substitution and the location was the wrong place but not in a place that was a serious breach? Where was the 'right place'?

[Sawgrass]

rogolf - some clarification for your ruling would be helpful as well. Under what rule did you judge the player was dropping such that there was both a 2 stroke penalty for improper substitution and the location was the wrong place but not in a place that was a serious breach? Where was the 'right place'?

 

Adding to this question, (if I've got this square now, questionable): First shot right, second shot toward green. Didn't actually find second shot, and substituted a ball where he thought it was (which was actually further from the green than where he actually was. Hit his substituted ball (thereby making his original officially lost). Now it gets more tricky. The substituted ball was further from the hole than the original ball, but closer to the hole than the place from which a lost ball would be dropped. Let's assume less than 5 minutes had passed. Was this illegal substitution a serious breach because he dropped closer than where his first ended up (where he'd have to drop for a lost ball) or is it not a serious breach because he dropped further from the hole than where his second shot, still in play, was?

 

Seems to me that it was a SB if the five minutes had passed, not a SB otherwise. But I certainly am not sure.

[Stuart_G]

It seems to me the focus need to be under what rule did he put the new ball in play, not on whether it was a substitution or not.

 

He thought he was putting an new ball into play based on 18-1 - but it's questionable whether he had KVC to be able to proceed under that rule. If he did have KVC, then it's a valid drop, in the right place and substitution is allowed (as noted by Newby). So there would have been no penalty until he abandoned that ball on the green and went back to find his actual ball.

 

If he didn't have KVC, then he could not have put the new ball into play under 18-1 and we have to ask the question under what rule was the ball put into play? The only thing I could come up with was 27-1 but it seems to me that the reference of an illegal substitution and the wrong location not being a serious breach means that others have something else in mind. I'd really like to know what that is?

 

The second question, is why would the actual location of his first ball (after the second stroke) - that had not yet been found when he made the drop - actually make a difference to the ruling associated with that first drop?

[rogolf]

Stuart, upon, reflection, I agree with your assessment above - it all depends on whether it was KVC. Imo, there was not, and since he did not know the location of his original ball, the correct procedure was stroke and distance. His actions would result in a SB which must be corrected. My original evaluation was also based on there not being KVC, substituting a ball at a wrong place (right place where his original ball lay) with a penalty of two strokes, and so on.

 

Even if one concluded there was KVC, the player doesn't have a score until he replaces the substituted ball on the green and holes it out, adding the two stroke penalty for playing a wrong ball (his original ball).

[rogolf]

I have already said. IMO, the ball was substituted legally under note 1.

 

Thought we were discussing it's merits or otherwise

 

You still haven't provided your opinion on how the player should proceed or an evaluation of his actions under the Rules. How do you arrive at his score for the hole?

[Sawgrass]

I wish he didn't make this mistake.

[Newby]

I have already said. IMO, the ball was substituted legally under note 1.

 

Thought we were discussing it's merits or otherwise

 

You still haven't provided your opinion on how the player should proceed or an evaluation of his actions under the Rules. How do you arrive at his score for the hole?

 

I was only intending to point out the potential problem with the substitution. The score for the hole depends on its resolution, which depends on Ranchobob.

[Stuart_G]

rogolf, thanks for the clarification.

 

Even if one concluded there was KVC, the player doesn't have a score until he replaces the substituted ball on the green and holes it out, adding the two stroke penalty for playing a wrong ball (his original ball).

 

And agreed. Regardless of what the ruling might be with the drop, it's still a DQ because of not finishing the hole with that dropped ball so while it's an interesting discussion, it's a moot point in this case.

[rogolf]

I have already said. IMO, the ball was substituted legally under note 1.

 

Thought we were discussing it's merits or otherwise

 

You still haven't provided your opinion on how the player should proceed or an evaluation of his actions under the Rules. How do you arrive at his score for the hole?

 

I was only intending to point out the potential problem with the substitution. The score for the hole depends on its resolution, which depends on Ranchobob.

 

Seems like you've found a very comfortable spot on that fence. :swoon:

[Newby]

When the situation is clearer and I have opened all my presents, I will move from my armchair with my half full glass and consider my response.

Although I wasn't aware that rulings were part of the contract I signed.

[Ranchobob]

OK, tried quoting and replying, but the software doesn't like how many folks I quoted.

 

Thank you for the replies and thoughts. Would prefer it doesn't get too......heated, as it seems to be perhaps a bit.

 

The guy who thought that he had hit my ball stated that he did or thought that he did hit my ball. I assumed that he knew, though in retrospect that's pretty dumb. If he knew it was mine, he wouldn't have hit it. He just hit a ball that was where he thought that his ball had come to rest, eh? If he'd actually looked at it, he'd have seen it was a Bridgestone with blue smiley faces on it, not a Titleist with a green dot.

 

As it turned out, my actual ball was circa 40+ yards forward of where I thought it had ended up. (My view was blocked by trees, so I was guessing, and the fairways are largely dormant, so you get a ton of roll right now.)

 

So I dropped a ball, thinking that my FC had hit mine, about 40+ yards behind my actual ball's position. I hit the dropped ball only one time, up to the green. That's when I realized that 1) FC had not hit my ball and 2) My ball was still somewhere behind us.

 

Sawgrass, points for "I wish he didn't make this mistake." I'm dying trying to stifle laughter so I don't wake my napping wife up.

 

Certainly it makes it a much bigger issue than I'd have thought and I'm glad it wasn't a tournament.

 

Again, thanks for the thoughts. I've been following the thread and am happy to try to answer questions that make it easier to ferret out an answer.

[Sawgrass]

Now I'm glad you made the mistake, because you're so nice in your approach to talking about it!

[gretch]

. Would prefer it doesn't get too......heated, as it seems to be perhaps a bit.

 

 

 

This isn't heated. This is what these guys do, and why we stop by here every day. :)

[Halebopp]

I wish he didn't make this mistake.

 

"...But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf."

 

To me it sounds like it really wasn't KVC. Thus 1 off the tee 2 back to fairway, 3 S&D, 4&5 playing from wrong place (serious breach), 6&7 playing a wrong ball (the original). Thus, Ranchobob is hitting 8th from where his 1st shot came to rest.