Unplayable lie in waste bunker

[6Aces]

A waste area is no more a waste bunker than a fellow competitor is a playing partner. (All are nouns)

 

I do find it strange at the suggestion that the ruling bodies should change its definitions to accommodate golfers in general and TV announcers in particular, who refuse to learn and use the very simple correct terms.

[mdgboxx]

Apart from the fact that 'bunker' does not meet the RoG definition, the use of the noun 'waste' in this context hardly meets the dictionary definition of 'waste'.

 

This is a copy/paste from the R & A Rules site:

 

 

 

 

 

Bunker

 

A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

 

How many times does "bunker" have to be used to meet a RoG definition?

"Hazard" is used ONCE, at the very beginning.

A bunker defines a hazard that is not a LWH (red stakes) or a carry over (yellow stakes), or OB (white stakes)

The fact that you, and only you on the planet has not heard the term "waste bunker" does not imply that it is not exist, or that it's not used profusely by us, the common people, wanting to save time and effort explaining ourselves. The fact that it is definitely "slang" per say, since it is not included in the RoG, doesn't mean that we are morons that can't understand each other.

A waste bunker, for the common people is usually a Bunker that has been abandoned/no longer maintained by the crew, for whatever reason. Was it ever a Hazard/Bunker at some time? More than likely. But no less a specific, carefully designed,(?) man made sandy surface, as opposed to the wide open area shown in my picture.

You have "lorries" we have "tractor-trailers", but they are still one and the same truck.

How 'bout the flat stick? Ever hear of it?

It's a Putter, and you won't find THAT in the RoG.

 

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

Agreed that the ROG don't define waste bunkers. But as to whether they should . . . it couldn't hurt and it might help.

 

How would you define them?

[LeoLeo99]

If my playing partner asks, "Did you see my ball?" I can tell him, "It landed in the fairway but bounced into the rough and rolled into the waste area." I trust we'll all know where his ball went. The words are not ambiguous.

[LeoLeo99]

Agreed that the ROG don't define waste bunkers. But as to whether they should . . . it couldn't hurt and it might help.

 

How would you define them?

 

An area through the green that does not contain grass and is not a hazard or bunker. May contain sand or rocks.

[Sawgrass]

Agreed that the ROG don't define waste bunkers. But as to whether they should . . . it couldn't hurt and it might help.

 

How would you define them?

 

I'd prefer to call them "waste areas" since they are not bunkers.

 

Waste Area

 

A Waste Area is a segment of a course characterized by baron, un-manicured expanses, with or without a sandy base. Normal Through the Green rules apply.

 

=========

 

In my experience it is sometimes difficult to determine whether a Waste Area is in fact a Waste Area and not a bunker. I'd rather have a scorecard or starter tell me, "The entire left side of hole #16 is a Waste Area" than, "The entire left side of hole #16 is a baron, un-manicured expanse which should be played as Through the Green.

 

In fact, I've played courses where power carts are directed to be driven through what very much looks like a bunker, but is nevertheless designated as a Waste Area. Sometimes your clue is the fact that there are no rakes!

 

So, I'm not advocating a Rules change, just the adoption of a phrase providing simplicity and clarity.

[mdgboxx]

Apologies to everyone for taking this up in the manner I did; I'll suggest cabin fever as one cause.

However, "waste bunker" is still a misnomer and, in the Rules, just through the green, like "rough".

 

You don't need to apologise to everyone. Indeed, I should apologise for not chipping in sooner to say the same thing!

 

@ mgdboxx

 

There is nothing in the rules defined as a waste bunker and to use the word bunker in that phrase is just confusing. Indeed that confusion is the cause of Augster's question as to whether a player can drop outside an area he calls a waste bunker when taking relief under 28a or 28b. If the area is not a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like it is not a bunker and so he can drop outside it, ground his club and remove loose impediments. Sand dunes, beaches , patches of bare earth large and small, bits of deserts etc are to found on golf courses and have no defined status in themselves. They tend to be natural features whereas bunkers are made. If such areas were not referred to as waste bunkers, no-one should ever even raise Augster's question.

 

I've been playing link courses all my life where there is an abundance of sandy patches, big sand dunes, beaches etc and have never had any difficulty knowing a bunker when I've seen one. It's basically that difference between the natural and the artificial. You have a bunker or you don't. There just isn't any such animal as a waste bunker no matter how many people spread confusion by using the term.

 

I have to confess that I was hoping that you would have chimed in last night. I saw you lurking.

 

Although the "munies" in my area have nothing to learn from most public courses, it is still a term that defines, for us common class, a less than well manicured private club.

 

Public courses, like all others, have Bunkers. But some of those bunkers, on some courses, have been left to fend for themselves, so-to-speak, they are no longer maintained by the crew. Those are the ones that are referred to as "waste bunkers". i.e. It's a shame to let bunkers go to waste.

 

It really would not be that difficult, when the elite take a step back away from printed, not negotiable Rules Books, and take time to listen to what is said/done around them, when they are not protected by the walls of their upper class Rules Committee Boardroom.

 

I am not challenging, and never did challenge, the competence and expertise of the, so called, Rules gurus on this board. Yet we all know what a guru is, and although not mentioned in any R&A, USGA RoG, the term is widely used and understood as such: A Rules Official/Expert.

 

Slugger White is known as a Rules guru, and I don't hear/see anyone jumping on the band wagon for it.

[QEight]

Why create more confusion by adding word bunker to something which one is not? What would it achieve other than the confusion OP described.

 

Sometimes old bunkers have been "re-grassed" and people call them affectionately "grass bunkers". There is no need for it to be added to RoG.

[LeoLeo99]

I don't agree that adding more definitions creates more confusion.

[DavePelz4]

Ironically, a search of the rules of golf does not yield the words birdie or eagle.

[QEight]

I don't agree that adding more definitions creates more confusion.

 

You mean that there is a need to define an area which is not a bunker as a "not a bunker"? Especially if that area is already included as a "through the green".

[Newby]

I can see it now,

Definitions:

 

Not a Bunker: Anything that is not a bunker

[mdgboxx]

We are now 40+ posts and two pages into this thread, and the OP's question was answered within the first three posts.

Then, the proper vocabulary army showed up, and POOOWWWWWW!!

 

I find it very odd that, while the army had me in it's sight, not one single one of them thought of suggesting that maybe, just maybe, to prevent any confusion about how to describe a bunker that was abandoned by the crew, the Committee or anyone else of authority, should declare that specific bunker: GUR

 

For all of us, using the term "waste bunker", it's quite clear that it was, at one time, even if it was abandoned from day one, it was a bunker....Not a sandy patch, Not a bare hump, Not an open dry area, Not anything else but a man made bunker that is no longer cared for.

 

Would it please any of you if we, from this day on, called it a Failed Bunker? Thing is, we still have to call it something, anything. Us common folk call it a waste bunker.

 

Simply because it's not defined as such, in the RoG, it remains a problem. Unless it's covered with grass, and becomes something other than a Bunker, it's still a bunker, but as a waste bunker the Hazards RoG no longer apply. The ball is played as it lies, you can ground your club, you can remove lose impediments or declare an unplayable, it's all up to the player's discretion. Anyone with a legit handicap has a basic knowledge of the RoG. We know that an unplayable incurs a penalty.

[Newby]

I find it very odd that, while the army had me in it's sight, not one single one of them thought of suggesting that maybe, just maybe, to prevent any confusion about how to describe a bunker that was abandoned by the crew, the Committee or anyone else of authority, should declare that specific bunker: GUR

 

For all of us, using the term "waste bunker", it's quite clear that it was, at one time, even if it was abandoned from day one, it was a bunker....Not a sandy patch, Not a bare hump, Not an open dry area, Not anything else but a man made bunker that is no longer cared for.

 

Would it please any of you if we, from this day on, called it a Failed Bunker? Thing is, we still have to call it something, anything. Us common folk call it a waste bunker.

 

I have never previously seen 'failed' or 'abandoned' (a term I would prefer) bunkers exclusively called waste bunkers.

 

See these references to 'waste bunkers'

 

http://www.pgatour.com/instruction/2014/06/11/golf-instruction-tips-hitting-from-waste-bunkers.html

 

http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/bldef_wastebunk.htm

 

http://golftips.golfsmith.com/distinguish-between-golf-sand-bunkers-waste-bunkers-20548.html

[Colin L]

We are now 40+ posts and two pages into this thread, and the OP's question was answered within the first three posts.

Then, the proper vocabulary army showed up, and POOOWWWWWW!!

 

Posts #1-5 were pretty good. Post #6, however, rather set things off.

[Newby]

Hey, on course right now.

 

Player hits it into a waste bunker ..........

 

 

Augster

 

As the one who asked the original question, what did you mean by 'waste bunker'

 

Did you mean specifically an old abandoned bunker or a generally rough area of desert, rocks or sand?

[Augster]

Hey, on course right now.

 

Player hits it into a waste bunker ..........

 

 

Augster

 

As the one who asked the original question, what did you mean by 'waste bunker'

 

Did you mean specifically an old abandoned bunker or a generally rough area of desert, rocks or sand?

 

It's a waste bunker, which I know now, is a waste area.

 

It looks like a bunker, indented, below the level of the grass, with plenty of sand, and in some areas rakes, but is not kept up by the greenstaff anymore, and by a local rule, made all these areas "waste bunkers".

 

So they look like bunkers, but as the starter will tell you, you are allowed to ground your club and remove impediments in those areas.

[LeoLeo99]

I've never seen rakes in a waste bunker before.

[Augster]

Double post

[Sawgrass]

I've never seen rakes in a waste bunker before.

 

Nor have I. Thought the point was to be messy!

[sbboudreau]

If it isn't a tournament and your playing with friends or matched up on the first tee, the group decides the decision. As so (hey guys there's rocks all over the place and I don't want to ruin one of my clubs from my $1000.00 set of Irons. May I move my ball without penalty?) All other situations should refer to the rules of golf. IMHO

[mdgboxx]

I find it very odd that, while the army had me in it's sight, not one single one of them thought of suggesting that maybe, just maybe, to prevent any confusion about how to describe a bunker that was abandoned by the crew, the Committee or anyone else of authority, should declare that specific bunker: GUR

 

For all of us, using the term "waste bunker", it's quite clear that it was, at one time, even if it was abandoned from day one, it was a bunker....Not a sandy patch, Not a bare hump, Not an open dry area, Not anything else but a man made bunker that is no longer cared for.

 

Would it please any of you if we, from this day on, called it a Failed Bunker? Thing is, we still have to call it something, anything. Us common folk call it a waste bunker.

 

I have never previously seen 'failed' or 'abandoned' (a term I would prefer) bunkers exclusively called waste bunkers.

 

See these references to 'waste bunkers'

 

http://www.pgatour.c...te-bunkers.html

 

http://golf.about.co...f_wastebunk.htm

 

http://golftips.golf...kers-20548.html

 

My point from the very beginning.

 

Although they are not specified/defined in any RoG literature, they do exist on this planet earth, and found mostly, if not only on a golf course.

[mdgboxx]

We are now 40+ posts and two pages into this thread, and the OP's question was answered within the first three posts.

Then, the proper vocabulary army showed up, and POOOWWWWWW!!

 

Posts #1-5 were pretty good. Post #6, however, rather set things off.

 

It rather did...indeed. :cheesy:

 

A chicken and a goose are both Birds/Fowl:

The goose flies and migrates

The chicken doesn't. Just to be clear, it doesn't migrate on it's own power.

 

A bunker and a waste bunker are still both bunkers

However different Rules of play apply to each.

 

Bunker: Hazard Rule 13-4

Waste Bunker: Play it as it lies, remove loose impediments, (making sure your ball doesn't move, R 18-2a) declare your ball unplayable, R 28.

And, yes, you may ground your club in a waste bunker.

[sui generis]

We are now 40+ posts and two pages into this thread, and the OP's question was answered within the first three posts.

Then, the proper vocabulary army showed up, and POOOWWWWWW!!

 

Posts #1-5 were pretty good. Post #6, however, rather set things off.

 

It rather did...indeed. :cheesy:

 

A chicken and a goose are both Birds/Fowl:

The goose flies and migrates

The chicken doesn't. Just to be clear, it doesn't migrate on it's own power.

 

A bunker and a waste bunker are still both bunkers

However different Rules of play apply to each.

 

Bunker: Hazard Rule 13-4

Waste Bunker: Play it as it lies, remove loose impediments, (making sure your ball doesn't move, R 18-2a) declare your ball unplayable, R 28.

And, yes, you may ground your club in a waste bunker.

 

You're all wet! :swoon:

[mdgboxx]

We are now 40+ posts and two pages into this thread, and the OP's question was answered within the first three posts.

Then, the proper vocabulary army showed up, and POOOWWWWWW!!

 

Posts #1-5 were pretty good. Post #6, however, rather set things off.

 

It rather did...indeed. :cheesy:

 

A chicken and a goose are both Birds/Fowl:

The goose flies and migrates

The chicken doesn't. Just to be clear, it doesn't migrate on it's own power.

 

A bunker and a waste bunker are still both bunkers

However different Rules of play apply to each.

 

Bunker: Hazard Rule 13-4

Waste Bunker: Play it as it lies, remove loose impediments, (making sure your ball doesn't move, R 18-2a) declare your ball unplayable, R 28.

And, yes, you may ground your club in a waste bunker.

 

You're all wet! :swoon:

 

Care to share something...Not as soggy?

 

Or are you shaking your head in discuss that the Ruling Bodies, while busy with the groove rule and the solo player handicap rule, that they never thought of properly defining something that has been staring them in the face, like forever?

[Sawgrass]

I'd like to share the observation that you may indeed take an unplayable lie penalty in a bunker.

[mdgboxx]

I'd like to share the observation that you may indeed take an unplayable lie penalty in a bunker.

 

And anywhere else on the course, except in a water hazard.

[sui generis]

We are now 40+ posts and two pages into this thread, and the OP's question was answered within the first three posts.

Then, the proper vocabulary army showed up, and POOOWWWWWW!!

 

Posts #1-5 were pretty good. Post #6, however, rather set things off.

 

It rather did...indeed. :cheesy:

 

A chicken and a goose are both Birds/Fowl:

The goose flies and migrates

The chicken doesn't. Just to be clear, it doesn't migrate on it's own power.

 

A bunker and a waste bunker are still both bunkers

However different Rules of play apply to each.

 

Bunker: Hazard Rule 13-4

Waste Bunker: Play it as it lies, remove loose impediments, (making sure your ball doesn't move, R 18-2a) declare your ball unplayable, R 28.

And, yes, you may ground your club in a waste bunker.

 

You're all wet! :swoon:

 

Care to share something...Not as soggy?

 

Or are you shaking your head in discuss that the Ruling Bodies, while busy with the groove rule and the solo player handicap rule, that they never thought of properly defining something that has been staring them in the face, like forever?

 

This "thing" of yours (Well, not really yours, but you seem to have taken up its cause.) already has a name. It's called "through the green." Why cook up some new name for some random bit of through the green?

[mdgboxx]

 

 

 

You're all wet! :swoon:

 

Care to share something...Not as soggy?

 

Or are you shaking your head in discuss that the Ruling Bodies, while busy with the groove rule and the solo player handicap rule, that they never thought of properly defining something that has been staring them in the face, like forever?

 

This "thing" of yours (Well, not really yours, but you seem to have taken up its cause.) already has a name. It's called "through the green." Why cook up some new name for some random bit of through the green?

 

No it's not, and it never was. IMHO.

 

The "rough" is "through the green", exactly like a "waste bunker" is part of "through the green", yet, you and everyone else in the world refers to it as "rough". Then, we add the kind of "rough", such as: long, heavy, short, mid, etc., etc.

 

And then, there is the type of grass, that "rough" is made of. Some "rougher" than others to get a club through.

[Colin L]

You're all wet! :swoon:

 

Care to share something...Not as soggy?

 

Or are you shaking your head in discuss that the Ruling Bodies, while busy with the groove rule and the solo player handicap rule, that they never thought of properly defining something that has been staring them in the face, like forever?

 

This "thing" of yours (Well, not really yours, but you seem to have taken up its cause.) already has a name. It's called "through the green." Why cook up some new name for some random bit of through the green?

 

No it's not, and it never was. IMHO.

 

The "rough" is "through the green", exactly like a "waste bunker" is part of "through the green", yet, you and everyone else in the world refers to it as "rough". Then, we add the kind of "rough", such as: long, heavy, short, mid, etc., etc.

 

And then, there is the type of grass, that "rough" is made of. Some "rougher" than others to get a club through.

 

Your reasoning is all over the place as result of your insistence on calling something that is not a bunker a bunker. No need to write a new rule or amend a present one. Just stop using the word bunker of anything that is not bunker according to the Definition. Result? The total absence of confusion I've enjoyed all my life as to what constitutes a bunker as opposed to the considerable number of sand dunes, sandy areas, beaches, grassy hollows I've seen and indeed played from. I don't have difficulty either in recognising that an area that has clearly been prepared as a bunker but is now neglected and in a mess is still a bunker.

 

But that's all been said many times already. Not much point in protracting the discussion, really. You're tilting at a windmill, which is fun but in the end unproductive.