Courteous Debate-Jack Nicklaus Early Extension

[birly-shirly]

Agree with Dap in terms of how Jack described his swing.

 

"The ideal way to play golf would be to swing the club in a vertical plane...I prefer an upright swing plane...the less I move the club off the target line - or the longer I keep it near the target line - the better my chance of swinging the club head along the target line at impact."

 

And "Ben Hogan and myself probably represent the practical limits of 'flat' and 'upright' golf swings."

 

Whether the upright plane led to loss of tush line, I wouldn't know. Certainly that's also what I see in his swing though. Never really paid much attention to the discussions/arguments on here about EE for pretty much that reason - but I agree with the OP that it's routinely criticised as a fault. Can think of a few faults in my own swing that I'll try to deal with before getting round to worrying about that though.

[Hawkeye77]

Agree with Dap in terms of how Jack described his swing.

 

"The ideal way to play golf would be to swing the club in a vertical plane...I prefer an upright swing plane...the less I move the club off the target line - or the longer I keep it near the target line - the better my chance of swinging the club head along the target line at impact."

 

And "Ben Hogan and myself probably represent the practical limits of 'flat' and 'upright' golf swings."

 

Whether the upright plane led to loss of tush line, I wouldn't know. Certainly that's also what I see in his swing though. Never really paid much attention to the discussions/arguments on here about EE for pretty much that reason - but I agree with the OP that it's routinely criticised as a fault. Can think of a few faults in my own swing that I'll try to deal with before getting round to worrying about that though.

 

You are missing what he means by target line. Other than plane upright vs. flat his talk about turn and rotation is not in opposition to Hogan as "dap" claimed, far from it. And "straight through"? Never talks about it. In to out with rotation being the key is how he viewed the swing (yes, within the limits of being upright). Again, have to read in context and plenty more in there and in other works of Jack's.

[birly-shirly]

I don't see what there is to misunderstand about what he means by target line. It seems clear that he's saying he wants as vertical a swing plane as is consistent with standing to the side of the ball and using the whole body to generate force and speed. Maybe I missed something in dap's post, but I didn't read anything more into it than just that.

 

Turn and rotation and coil - yes, for sure. And I always thought that Jack was closer to Hogan's "plane of glass" than Hogan was.

 

I certainly don't want to get into claiming that Jack's swing contradicts or is inconsistent with Hogan's - but his own quote about being at opposite ends of the spectrum seems fair to me. Hogan talked about the arms being glued to the sides, whereas Jack talked about maximally extending his arms away from the body. That seems to me to fit with what I thought Dap was saying.

 

As for Jack and "straight through", how about "The feeling I want [after impact] is that the whole hand-wrist-arm-club unit continues to swing out toward the target for as long as possible." Not saying that's necessarily a great thought for everyone to try and incorporate, and definitely not for me, but it sounds pretty close to "straight through"

[dap]

Hawkeye77 is complaining that I quote selectively but he's calling the kettle black. I'm gobsmacked that anyone would even find one thing similar between Hogan and Jack. They couldn't have more opposite approaches to the swing.

 

 

[TB07]

I've had lessons from a Nicklaus/Flick academy and from a guy who thought himself based on Nicklaus. Both were well respected. They wanted a very upright swing and for the club to swing up the target line and dtl. The in came from rotation. The hands and club had to feel like it was going straight down the target line.

[dap]

My theory is Jack early extended only when he went after a big drive. This explains why he doesn't seem to do this as much with irons. Jack was very conservative with his irons and his distances was not that spectacular considering his power. He always had plenty in reserve especially with irons. Perhaps early extending was his way of getting another 20 yards. Just a theory of course.

[Hawkeye77]

I've had lessons from a Nicklaus/Flick academy and from a guy who thought himself based on Nicklaus. Both were well respected. They wanted a very upright swing and for the club to swing up the target line and dtl. The in came from rotation. The hands and club had to feel like it was going straight down the target line.

 

Good enough!

 

Not how I read the book at all, or how I have ever read Jack expressing his views on his overall swing, but Flick would know better and obviously have insight/access/experience.

[Billy Baroo]

This is a good instruction topic. I believe that early extension has been given a bum rap here. You dont need to keep the same angles from set up all through impact as much as we are lead to believe.

 

The upright golfers with more leg slide or lateral drive are the early extenders. Nicklaus, Weiskopf, Watson are good examples. Jason Day is one of today's modern players who does EE. A guy like Bubba and DJ, who have more rotation and lateral bend can keep the angles better.

 

Is one method better than the other? I wouldn't be able to say. History has shown great golf played with either.

[dap]

I just watched a 23 year old Jack play Snead in a Shells match and it does appear he doesn't early extend much when he was younger. It seems maybe a bad hip did make him early extend more in his later years.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VESliv_Xfyc

[lv_2_hack]

Dap when is it early and when is it just extension?

[dap]

Dap when is it early and when is it just extension?

Early is when you can see the loss of waist bend from dtl with a corresponding loss of the tushline before impact. Most good players extend post impact so the extension occurs more towards the target rather than towards the ball which cannot be seen from dtl. You can see it though from a front on view with the belt buckle thrusting forward.

[lv_2_hack]

Dap when is it early and when is it just extension?

Early is when you can see the loss of waist bend from dtl with a corresponding loss of the tushline before impact. Most good players extend post impact so the extension occurs more towards the target rather than towards the ball which cannot be seen from dtl. You can see it though from a front on view with the belt buckle thrusting forward.

 

So if anyone has a 'loss of waist bend' in the downswing that is considered early extension?

 

Is it possible to have pelvis 'thrust' and still maintain tush line?

[dap]

Dap when is it early and when is it just extension?

Early is when you can see the loss of waist bend from dtl with a corresponding loss of the tushline before impact. Most good players extend post impact so the extension occurs more towards the target rather than towards the ball which cannot be seen from dtl. You can see it though from a front on view with the belt buckle thrusting forward.

 

So if anyone has a 'loss of waist bend' in the downswing that is considered early extension?

 

Is it possible to have pelvis 'thrust' and still maintain tush line?

Yes it is possible to maintain the tushline and have extension. Most tour players do it. It's pretty hard to maintain the tushline if you early extend although that is possible to do too. Vijay Singh did that early in his career.

[TurnHard Langer]

My theory is Jack early extended only when he went after a big drive. This explains why he doesn't seem to do this as much with irons. Jack was very conservative with his irons and his distances was not that spectacular considering his power. He always had plenty in reserve especially with irons. Perhaps early extending was his way of getting another 20 yards. Just a theory of course.

 

It's not mysterious. The harder someone swings the more they extend. So he's always doing it, you just see more of it on harder swings i,e, hitting driver.

 

ForthWorthPro, come on man. Nicklaus early extends, it's not the camera angle. Lateral movement does not excuse anything. Lateral movement makes it tough not to early extend. Jack made sweet love to the goat on every shot of that historic 30 on the back nine. It's not like he does it a lot but he definitely does it. I pretty much have seen every Nicklaus video ever. Those Hawaii big 3 matches have some great slow mo's. He's early extending every time. Not a lot, but some. Yes it goes against the mighty doctrine of any of that being a huge problem. It isn't, since he's the best player ever. But a lot of early extension, we haven't seen anybody be good on tour with a lot of it. YET! Lol, I'm kidding. Great thread.

[RBImGuy]

Tiger started doing it also, Como is da man.

got to get those 19 majors down Tiger

[tascot]

I think his EE is due to where his hands are at the too of the swing relative to his hands address position . If their moderate , not to far from the body at address and close to your head at the top of the swing then to shallow the shaft you have to EE if your hands are moving down and out onto the way down. You can have your hands high and close to your head and not EE but your hands have to move behind you and in on the way down, like Furyk. The further out the hands have to move on the way down the more EE, Vs the further away from your head at the top the less EE. So a deep position at top and far away hands at address like Moe Norman can = no EE . But you could also lay the shaft off on the way down like Kevin Stadler, to reduce EE, but that's not a straight back and down swing like jacks.

[Soloman1]

There are tour players who struggled after being told to not do this any more by people who proclaim themselves to be experts in golf performance:

 

 

 

 

 

Some say it was malpractice.

 

That is a very young Jack Nicklaus.

 

Extension isn't for everyone, but it should be for people who naturally use more vertical motion in their swing.

 

I'm in the camp that says it's a false stigma that extension is always bad, and the dogma to "stay in posture" may be the biggest cause of back pain and injury in all of golf.

[Fort Worth Pro]

My theory is Jack early extended only when he went after a big drive. This explains why he doesn't seem to do this as much with irons. Jack was very conservative with his irons and his distances was not that spectacular considering his power. He always had plenty in reserve especially with irons. Perhaps early extending was his way of getting another 20 yards. Just a theory of course.

 

It's not mysterious. The harder someone swings the more they extend. So he's always doing it, you just see more of it on harder swings i,e, hitting driver.

 

ForthWorthPro, come on man. Nicklaus early extends, it's not the camera angle. Lateral movement does not excuse anything. Lateral movement makes it tough not to early extend. Jack made sweet love to the goat on every shot of that historic 30 on the back nine. It's not like he does it a lot but he definitely does it. I pretty much have seen every Nicklaus video ever. Those Hawaii big 3 matches have some great slow mo's. He's early extending every time. Not a lot, but some. Yes it goes against the mighty doctrine of any of that being a huge problem. It isn't, since he's the best player ever. But a lot of early extension, we haven't seen anybody be good on tour with a lot of it. YET! Lol, I'm kidding. Great thread.

 

You can't "see" ee from that angle by drawing a line in the butt and looking to see if they stay against it. Lateral movement will make the player appear to thrust the pelvis. It's s 2d illusion.

[lv_2_hack]

Dap when is it early and when is it just extension?

Early is when you can see the loss of waist bend from dtl with a corresponding loss of the tushline before impact. Most good players extend post impact so the extension occurs more towards the target rather than towards the ball which cannot be seen from dtl. You can see it though from a front on view with the belt buckle thrusting forward.

 

So if anyone has a 'loss of waist bend' in the downswing that is considered early extension?

 

Is it possible to have pelvis 'thrust' and still maintain tush line?

Yes it is possible to maintain the tushline and have extension. Most tour players do it. It's pretty hard to maintain the tushline if you early extend although that is possible to do too. Vijay Singh did that early in his career.

 

I'm confused. You said in your first reply that most good players extend post impact.

 

Now you are saying that most tour players extend and maintain tush line.

 

Can you please clarify.

 

[TurnHard Langer]

My theory is Jack early extended only when he went after a big drive. This explains why he doesn't seem to do this as much with irons. Jack was very conservative with his irons and his distances was not that spectacular considering his power. He always had plenty in reserve especially with irons. Perhaps early extending was his way of getting another 20 yards. Just a theory of course.

 

It's not mysterious. The harder someone swings the more they extend. So he's always doing it, you just see more of it on harder swings i,e, hitting driver.

 

ForthWorthPro, come on man. Nicklaus early extends, it's not the camera angle. Lateral movement does not excuse anything. Lateral movement makes it tough not to early extend. Jack made sweet love to the goat on every shot of that historic 30 on the back nine. It's not like he does it a lot but he definitely does it. I pretty much have seen every Nicklaus video ever. Those Hawaii big 3 matches have some great slow mo's. He's early extending every time. Not a lot, but some. Yes it goes against the mighty doctrine of any of that being a huge problem. It isn't, since he's the best player ever. But a lot of early extension, we haven't seen anybody be good on tour with a lot of it. YET! Lol, I'm kidding. Great thread.

 

You can't "see" ee from that angle by drawing a line in the butt and looking to see if they stay against it. Lateral movement will make the player appear to thrust the pelvis. It's s 2d illusion.

 

So just to be clear, you're saying it's impossible to tell EE from a a dtl video if a guy has lateral movement?

 

People can't slide their hips and maintain the line on the butt?

What about his head going back a little at the same time? Also an illusion?

 

You are saying that Nicklaus does not have any early extension in his swing?

 

After this I'm going to ask you about Jimmy Walker haha.

[dap]

Dap when is it early and when is it just extension?

Early is when you can see the loss of waist bend from dtl with a corresponding loss of the tushline before impact. Most good players extend post impact so the extension occurs more towards the target rather than towards the ball which cannot be seen from dtl. You can see it though from a front on view with the belt buckle thrusting forward.

 

So if anyone has a 'loss of waist bend' in the downswing that is considered early extension?

 

Is it possible to have pelvis 'thrust' and still maintain tush line?

Yes it is possible to maintain the tushline and have extension. Most tour players do it. It's pretty hard to maintain the tushline if you early extend although that is possible to do too. Vijay Singh did that early in his career.

 

I'm confused. You said in your first reply that most good players extend post impact.

 

Now you are saying that most tour players extend and maintain tush line.

 

Can you please clarify.

I'm confused by what you are asking. Can you please clarify?

 

[TurnHard Langer]

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

[PowderedToastMan]

Interesting bringing up Jimmy Walker. I've noticed in players who EE, there tends to be a lot of "hand action" before and after impact. I think a big reason why EE is considered an issue, aside from the fact body angles are inconsistent, is the high degree of hand-eye coordination and incredible hands it takes to successfully play with such a motion.

 

It seems very likely to me that Jack had success with a fade not just because it's the shot he practiced, but also because holding off his release helped limit the amount of flippiness (how's that for a golf term) just before and after impact, due to the EE with driver.

 

There are some decent theories here regarding why Jack did this. That being said, can his swing be used as a model for instruction?

[PowderedToastMan]

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

He's not confused at all. He's a teaching professional who is using rhetoric to expose possible holes in your explanation of early extension.

[dap]

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

He's not confused at all. He's a teaching professional who is using rhetoric to expose possible holes in your explanation of early extension.

Yea I have been on this forum long enough to detect sarcastic posts. Lol

[Fort Worth Pro]

My theory is Jack early extended only when he went after a big drive. This explains why he doesn't seem to do this as much with irons. Jack was very conservative with his irons and his distances was not that spectacular considering his power. He always had plenty in reserve especially with irons. Perhaps early extending was his way of getting another 20 yards. Just a theory of course.

 

It's not mysterious. The harder someone swings the more they extend. So he's always doing it, you just see more of it on harder swings i,e, hitting driver.

 

ForthWorthPro, come on man. Nicklaus early extends, it's not the camera angle. Lateral movement does not excuse anything. Lateral movement makes it tough not to early extend. Jack made sweet love to the goat on every shot of that historic 30 on the back nine. It's not like he does it a lot but he definitely does it. I pretty much have seen every Nicklaus video ever. Those Hawaii big 3 matches have some great slow mo's. He's early extending every time. Not a lot, but some. Yes it goes against the mighty doctrine of any of that being a huge problem. It isn't, since he's the best player ever. But a lot of early extension, we haven't seen anybody be good on tour with a lot of it. YET! Lol, I'm kidding. Great thread.

 

You can't "see" ee from that angle by drawing a line in the butt and looking to see if they stay against it. Lateral movement will make the player appear to thrust the pelvis. It's s 2d illusion.

 

So just to be clear, you're saying it's impossible to tell EE from a a dtl video if a guy has lateral movement?

 

People can't slide their hips and maintain the line on the butt?

What about his head going back a little at the same time? Also an illusion?

 

You are saying that Nicklaus does not have any early extension in his swing?

 

After this I'm going to ask you about Jimmy Walker haha.

 

I didn't say any of that. I said from the video posted you can't tell. I meant exactly what I typed.

[oikos1]

Interesting bringing up Jimmy Walker. I've noticed in players who EE, there tends to be a lot of "hand action" before and after impact. I think a big reason why EE is considered an issue, aside from the fact body angles are inconsistent, is the high degree of hand-eye coordination and incredible hands it takes to successfully play with such a motion.

 

It seems very likely to me that Jack had success with a fade not just because it's the shot he practiced, but also because holding off his release helped limit the amount of flippiness (how's that for a golf term) just before and after impact, due to the EE with driver.

 

There are some decent theories here regarding why Jack did this. That being said, can his swing be used as a model for instruction?

 

WTF? Is this what it's come to? Wow, just wow...

[PowderedToastMan]

Interesting bringing up Jimmy Walker. I've noticed in players who EE, there tends to be a lot of "hand action" before and after impact. I think a big reason why EE is considered an issue, aside from the fact body angles are inconsistent, is the high degree of hand-eye coordination and incredible hands it takes to successfully play with such a motion.

 

It seems very likely to me that Jack had success with a fade not just because it's the shot he practiced, but also because holding off his release helped limit the amount of flippiness (how's that for a golf term) just before and after impact, due to the EE with driver.

 

There are some decent theories here regarding why Jack did this. That being said, can his swing be used as a model for instruction?

 

WTF? Is this what it's come to? Wow, just wow...

Are you having a bad trip or something? I'm not really sure what's caused such a reaction.

 

The whole thread is about why Jack EE's. The next logical question is if it's feasible to teach a swing like Jack's. Probably not, since many of the parts in his swing have been viewed as faults, but the results and consistency speak for itself.

[oikos1]

Interesting bringing up Jimmy Walker. I've noticed in players who EE, there tends to be a lot of "hand action" before and after impact. I think a big reason why EE is considered an issue, aside from the fact body angles are inconsistent, is the high degree of hand-eye coordination and incredible hands it takes to successfully play with such a motion.

 

It seems very likely to me that Jack had success with a fade not just because it's the shot he practiced, but also because holding off his release helped limit the amount of flippiness (how's that for a golf term) just before and after impact, due to the EE with driver.

 

There are some decent theories here regarding why Jack did this. That being said, can his swing be used as a model for instruction?

 

WTF? Is this what it's come to? Wow, just wow...

Are you having a bad trip or something? I'm not really sure what's caused such a reaction.

 

The whole thread is about why Jack EE's. The next logical question is if it's feasible to teach a swing like Jack's. Probably not, since many of the parts in his swing have been viewed as faults, but the results and consistency speak for itself.

 

Apparently not, since "logic" would suggest otherwise, as noted earlier in the thread: "I've had lessons from a Nicklaus/Flick academy and from a guy who thought himself based on Nicklaus. Both were well respected."

 

His swing might not be a "model of instruction" for you, but to suggest otherwise in regards to others is completely absurd. The man is in the "GOAT!" conversation, if not the GOAT! However, perhaps a different flavor of instruction is for you, and I get that as I don't swing anything like the man myself...

[lv_2_hack]

Early is when you can see the loss of waist bend from dtl with a corresponding loss of the tushline before impact. Most good players extend post impact so the extension occurs more towards the target rather than towards the ball which cannot be seen from dtl. You can see it though from a front on view with the belt buckle thrusting forward.

 

So if anyone has a 'loss of waist bend' in the downswing that is considered early extension?

 

Is it possible to have pelvis 'thrust' and still maintain tush line?

Yes it is possible to maintain the tushline and have extension. Most tour players do it. It's pretty hard to maintain the tushline if you early extend although that is possible to do too. Vijay Singh did that early in his career.

 

I'm confused. You said in your first reply that most good players extend post impact.

 

Now you are saying that most tour players extend and maintain tush line.

 

Can you please clarify.

I'm confused by what you are asking. Can you please clarify?

 

I'll try again....

 

You stated earlier that 'most good players extend post impact.' Yet then you stated that it is possible to maintain tush line and extend and that most tour players do that as well.

 

So which is it? Do most good players extend post impact or do most good players maintain tush line while extending in the downswing?

 

Also let me also ask this one again... If one decreases anterior tilt or 'loss of waist bend' in the downswing, do you consider that early extension?