Courteous Debate-Jack Nicklaus Early Extension

[lv_2_hack]

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

 

I know this topic is near and dear to you. With most players, when would you consider it early? Before 5?

[lv_2_hack]

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

He's not confused at all. He's a teaching professional who is using rhetoric to expose possible holes in your explanation of early extension.

Yea I have been on this forum long enough to detect sarcastic posts. Lol

 

No rhetoric intended. Just trying to get some clarification on a few things. IMO lots of misconceptions when it comes to EE.

[dap]

Lv_2_Hack,

 

 

All players good or bad extend at some point in their downswing. Early extenders just do it too early. I should have made that clearer.

 

I said you can extend and maintain the tushline which is correct. You can see tour pros maintain the tushline into their followthrough at which point they would be extending. I never said early extension and maintain the tush line although that can be done too. There is an unorthodox way to early extend and maintain the tushline as well so both scenarios can be correct. You can early extend while falling back behind you like Vijay Singh used to do. His head would fall back 6 inches on the downswing which will maintain the tush line.

 

[dap]

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

 

I know this topic is near and dear to you. With most players, when would you consider it early? Before 5?

It would probably take 3D equipment capable of measuring extension to accurately determine at what point on the downswing players extend.

 

From video I can only guess early extenders start extending just after transition. Players who who don't EE would start extending around the release point which would be p6 but of course these are only guesses.

[oikos1]

Lv_2_Hack,

 

 

All players good or bad extend at some point in their downswing. Early extenders just do it too early. I should have made that clearer.

 

I said you can extend and maintain the tushline which is correct. You can see tour pros maintain the tushline into their followthrough at which point they would be extending. I never said early extension and maintain the tush line although that can be done too. There is an unorthodox way to early extend and maintain the tushline as well so both scenarios can be correct. You can early extend while falling back behind you like Vijay Singh used to do. His head would fall back 6 inches on the downswing which will maintain the tush line.

 

He's confused about the early part of the early extension, that's all. The earliness is what gets you off the line. One time extension is not considered a problem because it helps rotation, early extension inhibits rotation.

 

I know this topic is near and dear to you. With most players, when would you consider it early? Before 5?

It would probably take 3D equipment capable of measuring extension to accurately determine at what point on the downswing players extend.

 

From video I can only guess early extenders start extending just after transition. Players who who don't EE would start extending around the release point which would be p6 but of course these are only guesses.

[oikos1]

Lv_2_Hack,

 

 

All players good or bad extend at some point in their downswing. Early extenders just do it too early. I should have made that clearer.

 

I said you can extend and maintain the tushline which is correct. You can see tour pros maintain the tushline into their followthrough at which point they would be extending. I never said early extension and maintain the tush line although that can be done too. There is an unorthodox way to early extend and maintain the tushline as well so both scenarios can be correct. You can early extend while falling back behind you like Vijay Singh used to do. His head would fall back 6 inches on the downswing which will maintain the tush line.

[TurnHard Langer]

My theory is Jack early extended only when he went after a big drive. This explains why he doesn't seem to do this as much with irons. Jack was very conservative with his irons and his distances was not that spectacular considering his power. He always had plenty in reserve especially with irons. Perhaps early extending was his way of getting another 20 yards. Just a theory of course.

 

It's not mysterious. The harder someone swings the more they extend. So he's always doing it, you just see more of it on harder swings i,e, hitting driver.

 

ForthWorthPro, come on man. Nicklaus early extends, it's not the camera angle. Lateral movement does not excuse anything. Lateral movement makes it tough not to early extend. Jack made sweet love to the goat on every shot of that historic 30 on the back nine. It's not like he does it a lot but he definitely does it. I pretty much have seen every Nicklaus video ever. Those Hawaii big 3 matches have some great slow mo's. He's early extending every time. Not a lot, but some. Yes it goes against the mighty doctrine of any of that being a huge problem. It isn't, since he's the best player ever. But a lot of early extension, we haven't seen anybody be good on tour with a lot of it. YET! Lol, I'm kidding. Great thread.

 

You can't "see" ee from that angle by drawing a line in the butt and looking to see if they stay against it. Lateral movement will make the player appear to thrust the pelvis. It's s 2d illusion.

 

So just to be clear, you're saying it's impossible to tell EE from a a dtl video if a guy has lateral movement?

 

People can't slide their hips and maintain the line on the butt?

What about his head going back a little at the same time? Also an illusion?

 

You are saying that Nicklaus does not have any early extension in his swing?

 

After this I'm going to ask you about Jimmy Walker haha.

 

I didn't say any of that. I said from the video posted you can't tell. I meant exactly what I typed.

 

 

 

I didn't say you said any of it....I am asking you questions to clarify what more of your thoughts are on the matter. So what are your answers to those questions?

[Fort Worth Pro]

 

You can't "see" ee from that angle by drawing a line in the butt and looking to see if they stay against it. Lateral movement will make the player appear to thrust the pelvis. It's s 2d illusion.

 

So just to be clear, you're saying it's impossible to tell EE from a a dtl video if a guy has lateral movement?

 

People can't slide their hips and maintain the line on the butt?

What about his head going back a little at the same time? Also an illusion?

 

You are saying that Nicklaus does not have any early extension in his swing?

 

After this I'm going to ask you about Jimmy Walker haha.

 

I didn't say any of that. I said from the video posted you can't tell. I meant exactly what I typed.

 

 

 

I didn't say you said any of it....I am asking you questions to clarify what more of your thoughts are on the matter. So what are your answers to those questions?

 

You said " just to be clear, you are saying...."

 

I answered you. I did not say any of that. I said from that video you cannot see EE because it is a camera angle that will make lateral movement look like early extension.

[Silky]

Can you have EE and a reversed C finish?

[asterisk]

Is it " too early" or early if you're Jack N..... hmmmm? I'm thinking naaahhh!! Might be if you're a hack with multiple problems or maybe you just need to do it to even get the club on the ball so you can whack it around the course!

 

No need to worry about poor Jack I think he did ok with "EE" ....GEEEEEZZ!!!

[TurnHard Langer]

Is it " too early" or early if you're Jack N..... hmmmm? I'm thinking naaahhh!! Might be if you're a hack with multiple problems or maybe you just need to do it to even get the club on the ball so you can whack it around the course!

 

No need to worry about poor Jack I think he did ok with "EE" ....GEEEEEZZ!!!

 

Exactly. But what he does is considered to be a little early by today's teaching standards. If a guy who swung exactly like Nicklaus went to a teaching pro today but nobody had ever heard of him or knew what he could do, the teaching pro would try to fix his early extension. And he'd be like here this will help you maybe get to the tour one day, take it from me, I never got to the tour.

[TurnHard Langer]

You can't "see" ee from that angle by drawing a line in the butt and looking to see if they stay against it. Lateral movement will make the player appear to thrust the pelvis. It's s 2d illusion.

 

So just to be clear, you're saying it's impossible to tell EE from a a dtl video if a guy has lateral movement?

 

People can't slide their hips and maintain the line on the butt?

What about his head going back a little at the same time? Also an illusion?

 

You are saying that Nicklaus does not have any early extension in his swing?

 

After this I'm going to ask you about Jimmy Walker haha.

 

I didn't say any of that. I said from the video posted you can't tell. I meant exactly what I typed.

 

 

 

I didn't say you said any of it....I am asking you questions to clarify what more of your thoughts are on the matter. So what are your answers to those questions?

 

You said " just to be clear, you are saying...."

 

I answered you. I did not say any of that. I said from that video you cannot see EE because it is a camera angle that will make lateral movement look like early extension.

 

Ok, cool. So do you think Nicklaus has any early extension in his swing?

[Fort Worth Pro]

As he got older and his hips got beat up I think he developed some. His early swings didn't really show it IMO. Head may have backed out slightly but it really was very minimal.

[WILDTHING]

EA Tischler seems to explain this quite well in his video below. Jack isn't doing early extension but just releasing his postural angles in a body-friendly way. The confusion is caused by the lack of a detailed/precise definition of 'Early Extension'. Tischler says that if you've reached your biomechanically optimal 'swing linkage point' before that rear buttock starts moving off that 'tush line' , then that is NOT early extension, that it's just the golfer releasing his postural angles (see 6:40 onwards).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW9Xhim4uoY

 

If you want to understand how an 'On-Top' , 'Side-on' , 'Under' golfer is defined ,see his website which basically shows you for free all the biomechanical features .

 

Biomechanics related to 'Accuracy'

 

http://newhorizonsgo...G-Accuracy.html

 

 

Biomechanics related to 'Power'

 

http://newhorizonsgo.../P3G-Power.html

 

Biomechanics relaed to 'Good Feel'

 

http://newhorizonsgo...G-GoodFeel.html

[dap]

Tischler is way over complicating the issue. Not saying he's wrong but "postural release" is the exact same thing as extension. Why add another term to complicate and confuse the matter? We have already established that all players extend(postural release) at some point on the downswing. Guys who early extend just "postural release" too early. At what point is it too early? I suppose everyone will have their opinion on that.

 

I"m not really a fan of instructors who create unnecessary terms to try and look clever. Some people buy it though.

[dpb5031]

There are tour players who struggled after being told to not do this any more by people who proclaim themselves to be experts in golf performance:

 

 

 

 

 

Some say it was malpractice.

 

That is a very young Jack Nicklaus.

 

Extension isn't for everyone, but it should be for people who naturally use more vertical motion in their swing.

 

I'm in the camp that says it's a false stigma that extension is always bad, and the dogma to "stay in posture" may be the biggest cause of back pain and injury in all of golf.

 

OT, but holy smokes was young Jack built thick through the hips and thighs. Looks like an extraordinarily powerful base to support his dynamic action

[JohnnyMIke]

Do y'all just do this for the lulz???

[finleysg]

There are tour players who struggled after being told to not do this any more by people who proclaim themselves to be experts in golf performance:

 

 

 

 

 

Some say it was malpractice.

 

That is a very young Jack Nicklaus.

 

Extension isn't for everyone, but it should be for people who naturally use more vertical motion in their swing.

 

I'm in the camp that says it's a false stigma that extension is always bad, and the dogma to "stay in posture" may be the biggest cause of back pain and injury in all of golf.

 

OT, but holy smokes was young Jack built thick through the hips and thighs. Looks like an extraordinarily powerful base to support his dynamic action

 

Especially given the era - far thinner population in the early 60's. Before he was the "Golden Bear" he was "Fat Jack"!

[WILDTHING]

Tischler is way over complicating the issue. Not saying he's wrong but "postural release" is the exact same thing as extension. Why add another term to complicate and confuse the matter? We have already established that all players extend(postural release) at some point on the downswing. Guys who early extend just "postural release" too early. At what point is it too early? I suppose everyone will have their opinion on that.

 

I"m not really a fan of instructors who create unnecessary terms to try and look clever. Some people buy it though.

 

Fair point.

[dap]

Tischler is way over complicating the issue. Not saying he's wrong but "postural release" is the exact same thing as extension. Why add another term to complicate and confuse the matter? We have already established that all players extend(postural release) at some point on the downswing. Guys who early extend just "postural release" too early. At what point is it too early? I suppose everyone will have their opinion on that.

 

I"m not really a fan of instructors who create unnecessary terms to try and look clever. Some people buy it though.

 

Fair point.

Another thing is Teschlers interpretation of early extension. He doesn't consider standing up through impact as early extension. He will only consider it as early extension if a player thrusts his hips towards the ball in a hyper extended position. The problem is NOBODY actually does that. In fact it's probably impossible to do in an actual golf swing.

 

The only thing Tischler got right in this video in my opinion is that players extend(postural release) at some point on the downswing. He got early extension completely wrong.

[MK7Golf21]

Never watched much of jacks swing but they had it up on the golf channel the other day. Was a young beefy jack wearing brown and perfectly down the line video of a driver swing, older video. Smacked the heck out of the ball but came off the "tush line" a huge amount.

[scifisicko]

I worked on this for 20 years (thinking it was a fault) and finally fixed it by changing my posture at address. For Jack I suspect his move towards the ball in the downswing is simply because he hangs his tush out behind him at address. To get into an athletic position to hit the ball he has to moves his hips towards the ball during the down swing (if he didnt he'd fall over). If you compare him to most other great ball strikers, at address his hip sockets are behind his heels, his shins are near vertical and his knees are above his ankles. Others have hip sockets over ankles, shins tilted and knees over balls of the feet and the hips never move off the line because they are balanced for maximum athletic output from the get go. Because Jack is not in a 'conventional' address position, he just moved his hips back to where they should be so he is balanced when he strikes the ball. You dont often see this in good players but its not like he is having to stand up to save coming in steep. Also Peter Senior is mentioned in another post. He didnt move his hips off the line until after the ball was gone. You can see his joints are all perfectly stacked at address.

 

[golferdude54]

Byron Nelson and Moe Norman were both “late” extenders and they were known to be the straightest hitters ever.
 

There’s a right kind of early extension and a wrong kind of early extension.
 

Everyone brings up the “tush line” DTL but overlook the “right knee line” DTL as in a straight line touching the tip of the right knee at address, just like the “tush line” but for the right knee. 
 

Jack would come off the “tush line” early but however, his right knee would not straighten and move AWAY from the “right knee line” which would be the wrong kind of early extension. He would actually move his right knee THROUGH the line, and this is the right kind of early extension, for more power without the expense of accuracy.

 

However, Jack would get injured from this move, he was actually diagnosed with hip bursitis at the age of 21 and ended up needing a hip replacement in his 50s.

Byron, who was a “late” extender needed back surgery in his 40s but that could be from two things, too much hard work at his ranch after he retired or his head hanging back after impact.
 

Moe kept his head moving forward after impact and never got hurt/injured or saw a doctor (or a dentist!!) until he had a heart attack in his 60s.

[aggiegolfer21]

On 3/25/2017 at 3:14 PM, PowderedToastMan said:

reatest record of all-time, Jack Nicklaus, employed early extension in his swing. This move has been deemed "destructive, swing killing, inconsistent" etc.. I don't disagree that most golfers can't be consistent with su

 

Even though Jack's hips "early extended" his thoracic spine angles remained relatively neutral so he didn't stand up out of the shot.  He maintained his left bend, then front bend, then right bend through the shot.  Scheffler has a similar move.

[Scottbox]

I've talked to some very good instructors about this, and all of them tell me that EE is a difficult thing to push out of peoples' swings. Often, the teachers just try manage it with a lot of their players. In reality, for a lot of these teachers, there's an acceptable range of EE, and if a player plays well with a little, so be it. It's the extremes that are the issue.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Scottbox