Unified world handicapping on it's way.

[Augster]

http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/04/19/usga-ra-develop-single-world-handicapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

Wouldnt matter at my course much. Other than one or two people that try to get into State and USGA events. We dont play any handicapped events,

[bladehunter]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

 

well sir... we agree at last.... death to sandbaggers !

 

 

the thing i question is how will they enforce it ? with apps now to post scores only way i see it is force the head of the handicap association to post all scores with a secret pass code

[Augster]

I imagine there's going to be a lot of give and take. I'm sure the USGA will push slope on everyone. That's fine and it works and doesn't really affect anything except a lot more work for course raters outside the US for a while.

 

While it's very convenient, the USGA, I feel, will have to get rid of internet posting. As you say, there's too much anonymity and ease of abuse.

 

Where I really see the abuse, and I'm sure they don't feel they are abusing the system, is when players "don't try as hard" when they are out of holes in their daily games. The USGA still accepts those scores and those scores aren't anywhere near indicative of the player's score in comps and tourneys where he's trying to grind out every bogey, or double. They play differently out with friends during the week than they do when they need to try to save every stroke.

 

The ROTW does this by only accepting comp scores for handicap purposes and provides two comps, or tourneys, every weekend. Then the scores are signed and attested.

 

I'd like to see the USGA go to that system, but I doubt they will initially. I can see them getting the ROTW to go along with rounds with friends counting toward cap only if it is signed and attested by another club member. Then hand the card into the box where the club committee inputs the score.

 

This way there will be more scores to create a cap upon, but some of those scores will be outside of comps.

 

I'll be quite interested to see what they come up with and if it'll coincide with the new rules in 2019.

[duffer987]

You're assuming a helluva lot from a few paragraphs.

 

My finger in the air guess...

They'll have a two-tiered index (comp only/combined).

 

The difference in the way golf is played and indexes are thought of and used between regions means they cater to them all that way.

[Colin L]

The fundamental difference between your system in the US and the systems in the UK & Ireland and in other European countries is that only scores made in competitions or under competition conditions and attested by a marker count towards handicap. To me, how that huge difference will be resolved is to me the most important matter.

[joeshmo]

Wonder what will happen to the online handicap sites that a lot of us use.

 

Sounding like the folks that never play tournaments but carry a handicap

to compete with their friends on the weekend will have to come up with a

basterdized ????? handicap

[Homerun2Birdie]

Wonder what will happen to the online handicap sites that a lot of us use.

 

Sounding like the folks that never play tournaments but carry a handicap

to compete with their friends on the weekend will have to come up with a

basterdized ????? handicap

What I'm curious about as well.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Wonder what will happen to the online handicap sites that a lot of us use.

 

Sounding like the folks that never play tournaments but carry a handicap

to compete with their friends on the weekend will have to come up with a

basterdized ????? handicap

What I'm curious about as well.

Curious as well. I'd be pleasantly surprised if the usga didn't f*#k the weekend golfers again.

[Sawgrass]

The fundamental difference between your system in the US and the systems in the UK & Ireland and in other European countries is that only scores made in competitions or under competition conditions and attested by a marker count towards handicap. To me, how that huge difference will be resolved is to me the most important matter.

 

Do you folks post your scores to a computer by yourself, or does someone who reviews the attested scores do it for you?

 

(It occurs to me that a new system could simply require the individual poster to type in the name of the attester to his score. That way the ease of use would be maintained, and one could check up on a suspected cheater. Of course this would leave open another avenue for cheating, but stopping cheating is an impossibility anyway.)

 

BTW, I like Augster's double handicap plan. Let players who rarely compete formally keep a type of handicap to use with their trusting buddies, and let serious competitors also have a comp handicap.

[Tzoid]

Some friends belong to a club in Harford County MD that require members to turn in their score cards at the end of each round and they are compared to the tee sheets each day to confirm who played. The Pro or assistant pro enters the scores in the handicap system and if someone that plays fails to turn in the score card the players get an assumed score of Par. That pretty much keeps people from not turning in a score card and pretty much eliminates sandbaggers.

[Halebopp]

The fundamental difference between your system in the US and the systems in the UK & Ireland and in other European countries is that only scores made in competitions or under competition conditions and attested by a marker count towards handicap. To me, how that huge difference will be resolved is to me the most important matter.

 

Do you folks post your scores to a computer by yourself, or does someone who reviews the attested scores do it for you?

 

(It occurs to me that a new system could simply require the individual poster to type in the name of the attester to his score. That way the ease of use would be maintained, and one could check up on a suspected cheater. Of course this would leave open another avenue for cheating, but stopping cheating is an impossibility anyway.)

 

BTW, I like Augster's double handicap plan. Let players who rarely compete formally keep a type of handicap to use with their trusting buddies, and let serious competitors also have a comp handicap.

 

Over here all tournament/competition scores are entered into the system by the club staff. The extra day scores are a bit of a mess though with varying requirements.

 

You're supposed to report to the club beforehand when you're playing for an extra day score but I'd assume that requirement is in the minority amongst the clubs. They're usually happy to take any scorecards you return. Either it'll result in a vanity cap or you'll need to return a ton of cards to get your handicap up (0.1 increase per round you don't play to your handicap) and if you start returning tens of non-EDS cards, the club probably becomes aware of any possible funny business. I've also seen the club staff require a player's good, non-EDS score be entered.

 

Some clubs let you enter your scores online and you might or might not need to enter the name of the marker. Other clubs allow you to enter scores online but have set the system so that it'll send an email to the reported marker and s/he needs to verify the entered score online. There are also clubs that only accept actual, attested scorecards.

 

Separating tournament and non-tournament handicaps could be an interesting solution. You could return every round for the non-tournament cap and keep track of where you're heading even if you don't play in tournaments but it wouldn't allow you to sandbag in actual competitions. Naturally there would need to be some check ups so that the tournament cap couldn't be much higher than the non-tournament cap.

[Augster]

I'm probably being obtuse and don't understand the problem, but why would non-tourney players need to keep a cap? If they are only playing among their friends, casually, can't they determine bets among themselves without caps using the official formula?

 

In so far as the USGA "screwing" the weekend golfer, how? If you're not paying in for an official handicap to use in tourneys and comps, what does the USGA "owe you" that they can "screw" you out of?

 

The online calculators, the Grint et al, were already not official caps. They just use the USGA formula. They will continue to do that. If the USGA/ROTW goes to an all comp/attested plus EDS scores, then yes, unofficial caps such as The Grint, and home spreadsheets for that matter, will no longer be calculated with the same scores. BUT folks that keep unofficial caps don't play comps anyway, so their cap doesn't need to be computed the same way as everyone else.

 

If you are playing only among your friends that also don't play comps, your caps will be equitable among each other using the current formula. Nothing changes.

 

But if you take that cap vs. a friend who keeps his cap through a club, and the USGA/ROTW goes to a comp/attested/EDS system, your independently computed cap will likely be relatively lower than your friend with an official cap.

 

If that discrepancy causes a few players to get out and join a club to get an official cap, the player wins and the USGA wins. I don't know anyone that quit my club due to the previous handicap changes. I doubt anyone would quit going to a weekend comp/EDS system either. Playing the comps and tourneys is just too fun. Along with the friendships that develop through playing with other like-minded golfers, playing comps, tourneys, and interclub matches is the best part of joining a club.

 

If you can only play golf on weekends, 99% of the club comps etc are on weekends. It's a natural fit if a player wants to keep an official cap. Especially going forward if the USGA goes to a system more like the ROTW.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Virtually no US golfer cares about having indexes to compete with RoW.

 

Only about 20% of those keeping a usga index have any T scores.

 

Most usga indexes are kept at public tracks, typically where guys play in casual leagues. There is No Staff that enters your scores for you, you are on your own.

 

Usga touts some reasons to keep a usga index including, track your progress. Not just for competition.

 

Weekend golfers rely on the GHIN and ghin app as a uniform and easy way to establish strokes given, set up teams etc. Even use it with acquaintances the join us. Guys golf trips etc.

 

Without a system that accommodates the 80% of non tournament golfers that wish to keep a ghin, this is another Big FU to the majority of golfers by the usga.

[jmkenn0]

So the "worst case" scenario for us in the US is that only "Tournament" scores count. You know, the ones with "T" on them? I probably have 2 of these a year, the two-day club championship. But for all other variations of my club and other clubs I play at with friends, handicaps are required. So either clubs are going to have to do a better job (ie work more) entering in scores, and everyone is going to have to mark/sign, or scores to enter will be few and far between.

 

And if you can't just put your scores in? Then for some percentage of people with handicaps now, there will be no reason to keep a handicap. And that's going to hit the USGA in the pocketbook. So I don't think it would be feasible.

[DavePelz4]

Wonder what will happen to the online handicap sites that a lot of us use.

 

Sounding like the folks that never play tournaments but carry a handicap

to compete with their friends on the weekend will have to come up with a

basterdized ????? handicap

What I'm curious about as well.

 

Our group of guys plays a 15 event competition season. This year we're doing a handicap just for inside the competition. Part of the goal was to create volatility in the competition and have your index be reflective of your play in the events. We're only 2 events in so far and the weather has been extremely windy but we'll see how it plays out in time.

[ruca]

First, it's not true that in CONGU/ EGA only competition scores count. This year (Congu) I can go out whenever I want and have my score count for hcp as long as I declare it in advance in the shop, and the round is attested ( card scored and signed by whomever I play with). Although hardly anyone seems to use this facility ( given we have 2 or 3 comps a week), I see no reason why this can't work in the states

 

IMO, the biggest deterrent to sandbagging ( bandits) is not so much attestation of scores, but the incremental system most of the world uses ( except USA, which uses an averaging system) ; the time it takes for your hcp to go up significantly ( once it's come down after good scores) is sufficiently long as to be an effective deterrent. After 20 "bad" rounds, your hcp only goes up 2 shots ( compare to USA where after 20 rounds you in effect get a whole new hcp ( whether attested or not)

 

Whatever they do, I hope they provide sufficient data / stats to back it up

 

I hope ( but doubt) they will consider a correction for the number of players ( which is a larger effect than slope and other corrections currently in use)

[teejaywhy]

Wonder what will happen to the online handicap sites that a lot of us use.

 

Sounding like the folks that never play tournaments but carry a handicap

to compete with their friends on the weekend will have to come up with a

basterdized ????? handicap

What I'm curious about as well.

Curious as well. I'd be pleasantly surprised if the usga didn't f*#k the weekend golfers again.

 

Really curious how change to the handicap system will impact the weekend golfer in any way.

 

 

[drn92]

I still think this is a solution in need of a problem. The number of golfers who "need" a handicap that travels overseas is minuscule, maybe 1/10th of 1/10th % of the US golfers. Plus, the USGA has a perfectly viable process in place today called the "T" score. Post a couple low tourney rounds and your "T" handicap will reflect that ... either your supernatural ability to score better under tournament conditions or the fact that you are a sandbagger. The main problem is that handicap committees are unwilling to enforce "T" scores or notify suspect players that they will have a lower handicap for their next tourney (move up a flight ...).

 

Until that happens, people will find a way to either sandbag or carry a vanity handicap. I do not see this changing, even if people have to "attest" scores for future handicap purposes. The USGA already told me that they do not trust me to keep an honest handicap. Not sure how this improves their standings in my book. It is beyond easy to create a spreadsheet using the USGA formulas and keep track of my handicap. The only reason I continue to maintain a USGA handicap is tradition and it comes along with my club membership.

 

drn92

[deadsolid...shank]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

 

well sir... we agree at last.... death to sandbaggers !

 

 

the thing i question is how will they enforce it ? with apps now to post scores only way i see it is force the head of the handicap association to post all scores with a secret pass code

 

It's what I've said all along Blade. Internet posting has to stop first. Signed and attested cards turned into the pro shop where staff does the posting.

 

No more online!!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

 

well sir... we agree at last.... death to sandbaggers !

 

 

the thing i question is how will they enforce it ? with apps now to post scores only way i see it is force the head of the handicap association to post all scores with a secret pass code

 

It's what I've said all along Blade. Internet posting has to stop first. Signed and attested cards turned into the pro shop where staff does the posting.

 

No more online!!

No way public courses, where the majority of ghin accounts are kept, is going to have staff post scores. No way.

[bladehunter]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

 

well sir... we agree at last.... death to sandbaggers !

 

 

the thing i question is how will they enforce it ? with apps now to post scores only way i see it is force the head of the handicap association to post all scores with a secret pass code

 

It's what I've said all along Blade. Internet posting has to stop first. Signed and attested cards turned into the pro shop where staff does the posting.

 

No more online!!

No way public courses, where the majority of ghin accounts are kept, is going to have staff post scores. No way.

 

 

i agree,, it isnt going to happen.. But sandbagging is a big issue and it should be stopped.... If you are a low single handicap playing in club events that give full handicap you are usually pencil whipped before the 1st tee .

[Augster]

It won't be staff. It'll be club members on the handicap committee.

 

Plus, since one will only be able to post, maybe, 3 scores a week if they don't play sanctioned tourneys on weekdays, inputting only those few cards won't take that long.

 

Assuming they keep the "1st and 15th" format.

 

It won't be the guy behind the desk or the starter or cart girl doing it.

[ThinkingPlus]

The golf organizations are going to make a mess. Nothing good will come of this initiative.

[drn92]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

 

well sir... we agree at last.... death to sandbaggers !

 

 

the thing i question is how will they enforce it ? with apps now to post scores only way i see it is force the head of the handicap association to post all scores with a secret pass code

 

It's what I've said all along Blade. Internet posting has to stop first. Signed and attested cards turned into the pro shop where staff does the posting.

 

No more online!!

No way public courses, where the majority of ghin accounts are kept, is going to have staff post scores. No way.

 

 

i agree,, it isnt going to happen.. But sandbagging is a big issue and it should be stopped.... If you are a low single handicap playing in club events that give full handicap you are usually pencil whipped before the 1st tee .

 

If the handicap committee would use "T" scores and enforce it, this would be solved in a matter of a few tourneys. The sandbaggers with their artificially high indexes would have two, maybe three good tournament scores, their "T" index would adjust lower, and they would be forced to enter in the next flight up.

 

Team competitions are an entirely different story, but the same concept could be used. Let this year be the "reset" where handicap committees enforce the standards and by 2018 the problem could be solved.

 

drn92

[deadsolid...shank]

It won't be staff. It'll be club members on the handicap committee.

 

Plus, since one will only be able to post, maybe, 3 scores a week if they don't play sanctioned tourneys on weekdays, inputting only those few cards won't take that long.

 

Assuming they keep the "1st and 15th" format.

 

It won't be the guy behind the desk or the starter or cart girl doing it.

 

That's putting a lot of faith in handicap committees Augster. I don't play at a lot of different courses, but the ones I do don't have active committees. Do you think it's viable or realistic that can or will happen?

[rogolf]

It won't be staff. It'll be club members on the handicap committee.

 

Plus, since one will only be able to post, maybe, 3 scores a week if they don't play sanctioned tourneys on weekdays, inputting only those few cards won't take that long.

 

Assuming they keep the "1st and 15th" format.

 

It won't be the guy behind the desk or the starter or cart girl doing it.

 

That's putting a lot of faith in handicap committees Augster. I don't play at a lot of different courses, but the ones I do don't have active committees. Do you think it's viable or realistic that can or will happen?

And therein lies the crux of the matter. The handicap committees for CONGU/EGA/Australia et al are very active and responsible. The handicap committees in North America are, in general, very lax or even non-existant. All of the bi***ng about sandbagging appears to come from North America. Where is the problem and what is the solution? Seems pretty obvious to me - handicap committees need to do their job.

[Never Trendy]

The golf organizations are going to make a mess. Nothing good will come of this initiative.

 

It works in the rest of the world.

[ThinkingPlus]

The golf organizations are going to make a mess. Nothing good will come of this initiative.

 

It works in the rest of the world.

 

What does "works" mean to you?

[nsxguy]

http://www.golf.com/...icapping-system

 

Just as predicted and not a surprise at all.

 

For those in the US, get used to having someone in your club attest your score. That, or only club events will count.

 

I doubt they'll keep much from the US system besides slope. I'd bet the USA has the highest percentage of sandbaggers with official caps. If the USGA moves to any other handicapping system, it'll lessen sandbagging guaranteed.

 

And I thought the simple "you have to play with someone to post" step wouldn't receive the anger it did. I can't really imagine what the next step will do.

 

As a player that has a legitimate handicap, I welcome any change to less sandbagging. It won't affect the accuracy of my cap at all and my earnings can only go up.

 

 

well sir... we agree at last.... death to sandbaggers !

 

 

the thing i question is how will they enforce it ? with apps now to post scores only way i see it is force the head of the handicap association to post all scores with a secret pass code

 

It's what I've said all along Blade. Internet posting has to stop first. Signed and attested cards turned into the pro shop where staff does the posting.

 

No more online!!

No way public courses, where the majority of ghin accounts are kept, is going to have staff post scores. No way.

 

 

i agree,, it isnt going to happen.. But sandbagging is a big issue and it should be stopped.... If you are a low single handicap playing in club events that give full handicap you are usually pencil whipped before the 1st tee .

 

Even if you have NO sandbagging going on, if you are a low single digit handicapper and there are more than a few high (15+) handicappers in your tournament, the STATISTICS TELL YOU you're in big trouble,,,,,,,,,,,

 

If you're a low single digit handicapper and focused on winning you need to find a group of nothing BUT low handicappers.