Unified world handicapping on it's way.

[QEight]

If you do well in our foursomes/ fourball comps, the committee should take it into account in the annual review ( and they do, where I play)

 

These type of competitions are real problem as they use official HC but do not affect one's HC. In Finland we have had couple of pairs cleaning up tables where there has been golf trips etc for the winners. They have been abusing the system for many years. I think finally last year the HC committees dropped their HCs and possibly banned from competition golf for a long time.

 

Everybody knows, that "social" golf is just for fun, but as soon as the price is more than a trinket all bets are off. OTOH the taxman in Finland has declared all >100 euro winnings taxable...

[Newby]

England Golf has recently invoked a CONGU clause requiring all players to return their (team) scores to their home club from 4BBB and am/ams played at an 'away' course. The Home club is required to use them as extra information when handicaps are reviewed.

[tatertot]

Good thing golf is the game for honorable gentlemen.

[jmkenn0]

Sawgrass - you depressed over the sandbaggers or the guy that plays 100+ rounds of golf, 40 of those in Ireland? :)

[Sawgrass]

Sawgrass - you depressed over the sandbaggers or the guy that plays 100+ rounds of golf, 40 of those in Ireland? :)

Yes!

[nsxguy]

In addition, over the winter months when preferred lies on the fairway and clean and drop in the rough are in play, all competitions become "non counting" for handicap purposes.

 

Not so

 

15 Preferred Lies

"The adoption of preferred lies, can allow Qualifying Competitions to be conducted under acceptable playing conditions.

Clubs should, whenever practicable, play competitions as Qualifying Competitions during the preferred lie period.

Reference should be made to Decisions 1(a) and 1(b) that have been formulated to promote and encourage Qualifying Competitions in the preferred lie period."

 

"Lift, clean and drop in the rough" is not a permitted Local Rule.

The permitted LR is "Lift, clean and replace through the green" and CONGU has no restriction on its use.

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned.

 

Not so.

 

Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee

7.5 Display in a prominent position at the club all alterations to Members’ Playing Handicaps immediately they are made.

7.6 Ensure that a record of Members’ current Exact Handicaps and Playing Handicaps is available in a prominent position at the club.

 

If the club has the facilities (and most do) this may be done on line also.

 

Is it possible Winter rounds are out of season as in many areas of the USA ?

 

Over here, "out of season" rounds don't count towards handicaps.

[Sawgrass]

In addition, over the winter months when preferred lies on the fairway and clean and drop in the rough are in play, all competitions become "non counting" for handicap purposes.

 

Not so

 

15 Preferred Lies

"The adoption of preferred lies, can allow Qualifying Competitions to be conducted under acceptable playing conditions.

Clubs should, whenever practicable, play competitions as Qualifying Competitions during the preferred lie period.

Reference should be made to Decisions 1(a) and 1(b) that have been formulated to promote and encourage Qualifying Competitions in the preferred lie period."

 

"Lift, clean and drop in the rough" is not a permitted Local Rule.

The permitted LR is "Lift, clean and replace through the green" and CONGU has no restriction on its use.

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned.

 

Not so.

 

Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee

7.5 Display in a prominent position at the club all alterations to Members’ Playing Handicaps immediately they are made.

7.6 Ensure that a record of Members’ current Exact Handicaps and Playing Handicaps is available in a prominent position at the club.

 

If the club has the facilities (and most do) this may be done on line also.

 

Is it possible Winter rounds are out of season as in many areas of the USA ?

 

Over here, "out of season" rounds don't count towards handicaps.

Isn't Florida still part of the United States?

 

And yes, parts of the US (north of Florida) forbid posting out of season rounds.

[nsxguy]

In addition, over the winter months when preferred lies on the fairway and clean and drop in the rough are in play, all competitions become "non counting" for handicap purposes.

 

Not so

 

15 Preferred Lies

"The adoption of preferred lies, can allow Qualifying Competitions to be conducted under acceptable playing conditions.

Clubs should, whenever practicable, play competitions as Qualifying Competitions during the preferred lie period.

Reference should be made to Decisions 1(a) and 1(b) that have been formulated to promote and encourage Qualifying Competitions in the preferred lie period."

 

"Lift, clean and drop in the rough" is not a permitted Local Rule.

The permitted LR is "Lift, clean and replace through the green" and CONGU has no restriction on its use.

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned.

 

Not so.

 

Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee

7.5 Display in a prominent position at the club all alterations to Members’ Playing Handicaps immediately they are made.

7.6 Ensure that a record of Members’ current Exact Handicaps and Playing Handicaps is available in a prominent position at the club.

 

If the club has the facilities (and most do) this may be done on line also.

 

Is it possible Winter rounds are out of season as in many areas of the USA ?

 

Over here, "out of season" rounds don't count towards handicaps.

Isn't Florida still part of the United States?

 

And yes, parts of the US (north of Florida) forbid posting out of season rounds.

 

Yes, Florida is part of the United States.

 

I'm not sure I understand your question,,,,,,,,,,,

 

And I thought it was the USGA that forbade posting out of season rounds,,,,,,, :dntknw:

[Sawgrass]

 

 

Not so

 

15 Preferred Lies

"The adoption of preferred lies, can allow Qualifying Competitions to be conducted under acceptable playing conditions.

Clubs should, whenever practicable, play competitions as Qualifying Competitions during the preferred lie period.

Reference should be made to Decisions 1(a) and 1(b) that have been formulated to promote and encourage Qualifying Competitions in the preferred lie period."

 

"Lift, clean and drop in the rough" is not a permitted Local Rule.

The permitted LR is "Lift, clean and replace through the green" and CONGU has no restriction on its use.

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned.

 

Not so.

 

Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee

7.5 Display in a prominent position at the club all alterations to Members’ Playing Handicaps immediately they are made.

7.6 Ensure that a record of Members’ current Exact Handicaps and Playing Handicaps is available in a prominent position at the club.

 

If the club has the facilities (and most do) this may be done on line also.

 

Is it possible Winter rounds are out of season as in many areas of the USA ?

 

Over here, "out of season" rounds don't count towards handicaps.

Isn't Florida still part of the United States?

 

And yes, parts of the US (north of Florida) forbid posting out of season rounds.

 

Yes, Florida is part of the United States.

 

I'm not sure I understand your question,,,,,,,,,,,

 

And I thought it was the USGA that forbade posting out of season rounds,,,,,,, :dntknw:

 

I got confused, under your avatar it says your location is "Florida", and when you said, "over here" I thought you meant something else. Sorry, nothing to see here!

 

But yes, to be very specific, the USGA prohibits posting rounds which were played in regions whose SRGA's have defined that time of year as being "out of season." Connecticut is out of season in December. Florida is in season all year around. If I play in Florida in December, I must post. If you live in Florida but play in Connecticut in December, you may not post.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, the USGA here ( http://www.usga.org/handicapping-articles/handicap-active-and-inactive-season-schedule-25489.html ) documents the posting seasons for the US. Note that, as you might expect, some states are different depending on the area.

 

dave

[nsxguy]

Is it possible Winter rounds are out of season as in many areas of the USA ?

 

Over here, "out of season" rounds don't count towards handicaps.

Isn't Florida still part of the United States?

 

And yes, parts of the US (north of Florida) forbid posting out of season rounds.

 

Yes, Florida is part of the United States.

 

I'm not sure I understand your question,,,,,,,,,,,

 

And I thought it was the USGA that forbade posting out of season rounds,,,,,,, :dntknw:

 

I got confused, under your avatar it says your location is "Florida", and when you said, "over here" I thought you meant something else. Sorry, nothing to see here!

 

But yes, to be very specific, the USGA prohibits posting rounds which were played in regions whose SRGA's have defined that time of year as being "out of season." Connecticut is out of season in December. Florida is in season all year around. If I play in Florida in December, I must post. If you live in Florida but play in Connecticut in December, you may not post.

 

No biggie. Yes, the 2 guys I was answering are both on the other side of the pond, hence the "over here".

 

I know I certainly get confused around here sometimes,,,,,,, :wacko:

[Newby]

 

Is it possible Winter rounds are out of season as in many areas of the USA ?

 

Over here, "out of season" rounds don't count towards handicaps.

 

There is no 'out of season' over here but many clubs will not run handicap qualifying competitions in the winter because of course conditions (very wet and muddy say). But many do, typically links.

[josephs_79]

Aus is all year round for handicap rounds. Run every weekend (private ones during the week as well) so cap is counted all the time.

 

Some blow out a little over winter with no run and having to play longer clubs in than in summer with heaps of run and short irons into greens. Depending on the course, our comps will have prizes such as balls or shop credit etc so you can always win every week.

 

Most keep within their range and do have the odd round where they go nuts and clean up. We then have a comp run nationally that you tend to see the sandbaggers really come out of the woodwork for.

 

But most of the time on day to day comps it is fairly normal with a person having the round of their life to win and then go back to normal the next week or playing on cored greens where straight putts rule and those that cant putt can because there is no skill in it.

 

Could this be the issue with sandbagging over in the US? The fact that their aren't enough Comp Rounds week to week at different clubs and thus most protect it for when there is? Most public courses here have a comp run by a "social" group on weekends whereby they organize with the public course to have the first X amount of time slots in morning and play. Semi and Private clubs run comps daily. Doesn't matter where you play though, they are always marked\attested etc by another member and can only be submitted once signed by both.

 

The cap is all Computer based and is calculated automatically by a server hosted by Golf Australia.

[tigerheenan]

In addition, over the winter months when preferred lies on the fairway and clean and drop in the rough are in play, all competitions become "non counting" for handicap purposes.

 

Not so

 

15 Preferred Lies

"The adoption of preferred lies, can allow Qualifying Competitions to be conducted under acceptable playing conditions.

Clubs should, whenever practicable, play competitions as Qualifying Competitions during the preferred lie period.

Reference should be made to Decisions 1(a) and 1(b) that have been formulated to promote and encourage Qualifying Competitions in the preferred lie period."

 

"Lift, clean and drop in the rough" is not a permitted Local Rule.

The permitted LR is "Lift, clean and replace through the green" and CONGU has no restriction on its use.

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned.

 

Not so.

 

Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee

7.5 Display in a prominent position at the club all alterations to Members’ Playing Handicaps immediately they are made.

7.6 Ensure that a record of Members’ current Exact Handicaps and Playing Handicaps is available in a prominent position at the club.

 

If the club has the facilities (and most do) this may be done on line also.

 

 

I wished you were right on both counts, but I have been trying for a couple of years to have these looked at.

 

Firstly, the CONGU local rule on preferred lies refers only to ’A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green....". Any relief obtained in the rough, either dropping or placing, renders a competition "non qualifying". In addition, where winter tees shorten (or lengthen) a course by a total of over 100 yards, a separate SSS has to be obtained from your Golfing Union and records show that you can count the number of clubs who have done this on one hand.

 

Secondly, with regard to the displaying of handicaps, clubs are only obliged to display a current list of handicaps for all members and details of adjustments to a players playing handicap. Neither of these allows you to see the scores posted or the changes to a player's exact handicap (point one increases etc.). In addition, one can only see the handicaps of members of his or her own club. The USGA system allows access to all cards returned for all USGA handicap holders.

[tigerheenan]

Not replying to any particular post, but i get the feeling that the US guys seem to think that the CONGU or European system will reduce the number of sandbaggers. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a both a USGA handicap and a CONGU handicap. Both are genuine in their respective zones, but the CONGU system, particularly in Ireland, is the subject of mass abuse. Yes, scorecards are attested and competition cards only count towards handicap. Unfortunately only singles scorecards count towards handicap, whereas the big money prizes are in fourballs, foursomes, corporate/charity team events and societies. Society competitions are usually singles competitions played on away courses by groups of individuals from pubs, offices etc. Guys deliberately play poorly in counting competitions and build up their handicaps for these "non counting" competitions. In addition, over the winter months when preferred lies on the fairway and clean and drop in the rough are in play, all competitions become "non counting" for handicap purposes. The Governing Body of golf in Ireland, the GUI, have finally started to call sandbaggers "handicap cheats". Heretofore they were called "handicap builders" - progress !!

 

Just to give you an example - I played in a singles competition last year with a well known sandbagger. We were also playing a match for dinner. I only agreed to play the match as I owed him a dinner anyway !! On 2 holes I conceded putts of less than 6". After the round I said to him that he must have a good score, but he said "no" - when I checked the card, on the 2 holes i conceded putts he had entered no score as he didn't tap the ball into the hole. This had the effect of adding 5 or 6 strokes to his score as the system assumed triple bogeys. I refused to sign his card (yes, he was a friend of mine !) and he just ripped it up. I discovered a few days later that the card was counted as a no return and his handicap increased by .1 !!

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned. At least in the US we have peer review and access to all posted scores.

 

I agree there should be a worldwide system to try and even things out, but a lot of work will have to go in to make any hybrid system fair to all. At the moment my handicap in Ireland is 5 and I am barely competitive at that. I rarely win nett prizes but am sometimes lucky enough to win a gross prize. In the US my index is .9 and I can compete for gross and nett. Therefore I believe the US system is more accurate. I play about 60 to 70 rounds of golf in the US each year and 40 to 50 rounds in Ireland. In the US all my scores count towards handicap, whereas in Ireland that number would be as low as 15/20.

 

All I can say is that I consider sandbaggers as cheats and they deserve to be weeded out, whichever system is used. Good luck to all involved !!

 

You just depressed the hell out of me.

 

There are numerous errors in the above post - no need to get depressed

 

I can look up anybody's hcp at my club, all their scores in the past 6 months, and what they scored in each and every hole!

 

If you do well in our foursomes/ fourball comps, the committee should take it into account in the annual review ( and they do, where I play)

 

Anyone who plays a singles comp knows they should be finishing the hole, and not doing so should be reported to the committee - unclear why poster above didn't

 

Societies, of course have their own rules; perhaps if they adopted CONGU rules for society hcps they wouldn't have a problem;

 

If you play corporate / society golf you have to accept what comes with it; but you can play club comps all you like without a problem.

 

Not sure what the numerous errors you are referring to are.

 

Maybe in your club you can look up you own club's members' score posting, but this is not a requirement of your Golfing Union.There are other ways of accessing a guys scores eg. Howdidido.com, provided the club keeps the systems updated. Each club is only obliged to display an up to date handicap list and details of any adjustments to a member's playing handicap (not every exact handicap alteration). A lot of clubs only do this. This thread relates to the possibility of a unification of all handicaps. In the US one can access the scores of all USGA handicaps, no matter what club you are affiliated to. In Ireland (and I'm sure UK too) one can only access one's own club handicaps and even that is when the system allowed permits.

 

 

Where one plays all of his golf at his home club, his performances in fourballs, foursomes (and even society & team events) should of course be taken into account by the club handicap committee. I was referring to non qualifying competitions at away clubs, which include fourballs, societies and any form of golf where a singles card is not returned through the handicap system. In Ireland individuals are now "obliged" to volunteer this information to their home club, by returning scores from non counting competitions. We are only one month into the "point one" season and to date I have witnessed a breach of this "obligation" on no fewer than 4 occasions.

 

I was once handicap secretary of a club with 900 male handicaps to manage. Over time, one gets to know who the cheats are, but inevitably a number of them will slip through the net. There are not that many, but the ones that are cheating are the ones whose names appear in highlights.The job has become even more difficult in recent years. Since the economic downturn there has been considerable churn in golf club memberships, with a lot of guys quitting and others availing of various offers available at different clubs. More and more clubs are running open competitions and team events, making it even more difficult to track members' playing ability.

 

As for your comment "Anyone who plays a singles comp knows they should be finishing the hole, and not doing so should be reported to the committee - unclear why poster above didn't" - everybody who plays golf should know they shouldn't cheat, but unfortunately that doesn't stop some of them from cheating in one way or another. If it did, we wouldn't be posting on this thread. By the way, although he's a friend, I am not a member of this guys club. I refused to sign his card, which is all I could really do. Not putting the ball into the hole is not breaking any rule of golf, but it is not in the spirit of the CONGU handicap system. When I realised at a later date that he did get a point one, I reported it. Had it been in the US I would've had access to his club's handicap database I would've seen it immediately and, had it been in the US, those putts would've been considered holed ! His club cancelled the point one and at annual review cut him 2 full shots (he had other notable performances). In my view, his handicap should've been immediately suspended, which is what should've happened according to CONGU.

 

If you think there are any other perceived errors in my original post, I will gladly clarify !

[Newby]

Firstly, the CONGU local rule on preferred lies refers only to ’A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green....". Any relief obtained in the rough, either dropping or placing, renders a competition "non qualifying".

 

That is because preferred lies other than on closely mown areas is not an authorised Rule of Golf. The Lift, clean and replace is permitted anywhere through the green without restriction.

Neither local rule permits dropping.

 

In addition, where winter tees shorten (or lengthen) a course by a total of over 100 yards, a separate SSS has to be obtained from your Golfing Union and records show that you can count the number of clubs who have done this on one hand.

 

It is only necessary to inform the county union if the length is varied by 100 to 300 yards. In this case the SSS is altered by 1 stroke. Prior referral is required for over 300 yards as the variation may vary, depending on the %age change and the actual rating assessment information on file.

[tigerheenan]

Firstly, the CONGU local rule on preferred lies refers only to ’A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green....". Any relief obtained in the rough, either dropping or placing, renders a competition "non qualifying".

 

That is because preferred lies other than on closely mown areas is not an authorised Rule of Golf. The Lift, clean and replace is permitted anywhere through the green without restriction.

Neither local rule permits dropping.

 

In addition, where winter tees shorten (or lengthen) a course by a total of over 100 yards, a separate SSS has to be obtained from your Golfing Union and records show that you can count the number of clubs who have done this on one hand.

 

It is only necessary to inform the county union if the length is varied by 100 to 300 yards. In this case the SSS is altered by 1 stroke. Prior referral is required for over 300 yards as the variation may vary, depending on the %age change and the actual rating assessment information on file.

 

Thanks for that. I guess if the clubs don't play by the rules, it's hard for the players to know what's going on ! I played on 2 courses recently where you lift, clean and drop on fairway only. After playing the first one, It appears there's nothing wrong with dropping PROVIDED the ball is played from within 6 inches of where it lay. As it is almost impossible to drop that accurately, I queried it at the second course and claimed that the comp could not be qualifying as it wasn't being placed (or played from) within 6 inches. Needless to say, it fell on deaf ears and I received an unwanted .1 . I subsequently found out that they have ceased the practice and are placing, which I suppose is progress.

 

As for the preferred lies in the rough, I am in agreement with you in that dropping is no longer a local rule (unless you are asked to drop a ball in the rough when fairways are being protected), but again some clubs are doing it. Most clubs here in Ireland allow placing everywhere (through the green) during the winter months, but are they getting the appropriate approval to extend the preferred lie area ? I doubt it. On the other hand, it is obvious that most average courses, which do not have links soil or an advanced drainage system, would be unplayable if one had to play as it lies in the rough in winter. Surely the club management should be able to make the placing call, rather than the area authority.

 

I'll plead guilty on the change in length of the course ! I play a 9 hole course which uses a forward tee, 80 yards ahead of the normal tee during the winter. That's 160 yards on that hole alone, so we would certainly be over 300 yards different over 18 holes. I don't see the point in requesting a SSS for those tees as they are only used in the bad weather when they place everywhere anyway (Dec/Jan).

 

Thankfully I don't play much winter golf here, but I can understand the frustrations of all involved.

[Newby]

After playing the first one, It appears there's nothing wrong with dropping PROVIDED the ball is played from within 6 inches of where it lay.

The ball must be placed within 6", not dropped. CONGU's wording is very clear on that.

 

As for the preferred lies in the rough, I am in agreement with you in that dropping is no longer a local rule (unless you are asked to drop a ball in the rough when fairways are being protected), but again some clubs are doing it.

That has never been an authorised Local Rule in any form to the best of my knowledge and is specifically forbidden by CONGU.

[mjtoal]

In clubs in the UK, almost everyone who actually plays has an active handicap. The scores are registered by the pro shop staff and the handicap committee don't have much to do except at the end of the year when an annual review of handicaps takes place and a few people are increased or decreased because the rate of change of their handicap isn't keeping up with their scores. Almost all my rounds are qualifying (i.e. count for handicap) either as club comps (which are held every weekend and some weekdays) or if I nominate in advance for the round to count as a supplementary score.

 

One other difference that strikes me is the course rating. I have played many courses in the US over the past 15 years and the course rating often seems to be higher than I would expect compared to a UK course. I think this contributes to lower handicaps in the US. I am not sure the differences in the mechanism of handicap change (last 20 scores in the US vs incremental change in the UK) makes all that much difference.

[Newby]

One other difference that strikes me is the course rating. I have played many courses in the US over the past 15 years and the course rating often seems to be higher than I would expect compared to a UK course. I think this contributes to lower handicaps in the US. I am not sure the differences in the mechanism of handicap change (last 20 scores in the US vs incremental change in the UK) makes all that much difference.

 

Experience over the last year or so (ie since England Golf started rerating to the USGA spec), suggests there is very little difference in the SSS vs Scratch Rating. Maybe 1 stroke either way, very rarely more. This may be down to rounding, the rater's view of the significance of trees (say) or changes (other than length) made to the course since last rated (upto 10 years ago).

 

However, the major effect will be the introduction of slope, where higher handicappers gain handicap strokes vs the old CONGU system. This will have the effect of bringing playing handicaps down. But we probably won't see slope used until 2020.

[mjtoal]

One other difference that strikes me is the course rating. I have played many courses in the US over the past 15 years and the course rating often seems to be higher than I would expect compared to a UK course. I think this contributes to lower handicaps in the US. I am not sure the differences in the mechanism of handicap change (last 20 scores in the US vs incremental change in the UK) makes all that much difference.

 

Experience over the last year or so (ie since England Golf started rerating to the USGA spec), suggests there is very little difference in the SSS vs Scratch Rating. Maybe 1 stroke either way, very rarely more. This may be down to rounding, the rater's view of the significance of trees (say) or changes (other than length) made to the course since last rated (upto 10 years ago).

 

However, the major effect will be the introduction of slope, where higher handicappers gain handicap strokes vs the old CONGU system. This will have the effect of bringing playing handicaps down. But we probably won't see slope used until 2020.

 

In the UK, not many courses have a SSS more than par/72, but plenty of comparable US courses seem to be in the 74 area. Of course, it is a circular argument, because if the higher course ratings drive lower handicaps, then those lower handicaps will underperform on the higher rated courses. I am not sure that isolating the effect in a re-rating exercise fully captures the effect. Whatever, it has been my impression that US golfers have a handicap a point or two below where they would be in the UK.

 

We used to have a crude form of slope here, with adjustments for handicaps for players playing at courses with a different SSS than their home course.

[Newby]

1) By far the major element in rating is course length. US courses tend to be longer that in the UK. a) because they are newer and b) because there is more space available.

Of course the numbers you quote above depend on which tees you play from.

 

2) The US system allows for a handicap adjustment for higher rated courses for all grades of player. The slope makes a further adjustment based on the relative difficulty of that course between the low and high handicapper.

 

3) In larger CONGU competitions the CSS (not SSS) is calculated separately for home and away players.

[mjtoal]

1) By far the major element in rating is course length. US courses tend to be longer that in the UK. a) because they are newer and b) because there is more space available.

Of course the numbers you quote above depend on which tees you play from.

 

2) The US system allows for a handicap adjustment for higher rated courses for all grades of player. The slope makes a further adjustment based on the relative difficulty of that course between the low and high handicapper.

 

3) In larger CONGU competitions the CSS (not SSS) is calculated separately for home and away players.

 

I usually play similar tees to my home course white tees, 6500 yards.

 

So, taking all that into account, do you think US and UK handicaps are comparable or is there a transatlantic difference?

[North Butte]

1) By far the major element in rating is course length. US courses tend to be longer that in the UK. a) because they are newer and b) because there is more space available.

Of course the numbers you quote above depend on which tees you play from.

 

2) The US system allows for a handicap adjustment for higher rated courses for all grades of player. The slope makes a further adjustment based on the relative difficulty of that course between the low and high handicapper.

 

3) In larger CONGU competitions the CSS (not SSS) is calculated separately for home and away players.

 

I usually play similar tees to my home course white tees, 6500 yards.

 

So, taking all that into account, do you think US and UK handicaps are comparable or is there a transatlantic difference?

 

In my experience visiting UK and in the experience of some of my friends who go over a couple times a year, they do not directly equate. Even single-digit players who are used to playing the longer tees at their USA club tend to find they are giving up a couple strokes against their UK counterparts with otherwise similar games.

 

If a USA 6-handicap plays a UK 6-handicap straight up on a UK course neither of them in familiar with, the UK player will win far more than half the time. My friends typically adjust it by two strokes in friendly matches. Sometimes grudgingly but in the end it seems fair.

 

P.S. Keep in mind I am talking about a USA 6.something INDEX playing against a UK 6-handicap. The two strokes difference is basically equivalent to assigning a pseudo-stroke-rating to the UK courses and figuring that USA 6 index gets a course handicap of 8. That is where the main difference arises.

[mjtoal]

I agree. So assuming that these players have reached 'steady state' with regard to their handicaps, then it must follow that there is a systematic element in the systems which causes this, either the base assumptions for calculation, mostly course rating and slope, or the adjustment method. The US system has a pivot point around the 75th centimetres of the player' scores (mid point of best 10 of 20) compared to CONGU's assymetrical incremental adjustment. CONGU tends to give inconsistent streaky players a lower handicap because the downward adjustment for good scores is unlimited whereas upward adjustment for bad scores capped.

[tigerheenan]

As previous posters have said, there is a sizable difference between CONGU and USGA handicaps, even though the USGA don't allocate handicaps as such (handicap index which is used to calculate a player's handicap on any given course, based on slope rating). The USGA handicap index is supposed to be a reflection of a player's potential, measured against what a scratch golfer is expected to score on any given course, whereas a CONGU handicap is based on current ability measured against other CONGU handicap holders. For a combined system to be developed, it will have to be based on one or the other.

 

In my view, one of the main "differences" between CONGU & USGA handicaps has a lot to do with the 10 discarded cards from your previous 20. Under CONGU rules a player, particularly Cat 1, has to be more consistent. For example, if I were to shoot 10 rounds of 74 gross off a 5.4 CONGU handicap when the CSS is 71 and 10 crap scores, my handicap would reduce to 4.4 (cut 10 x .2 + 10 x .1 back). Under the USGA system, assuming a course with a similar rating of 71, my handicap would be 3. I know it's only a one stroke difference, but over time it could be more. If I were to be a 3 CONGU handicap, I would have to convert half of the 10 crap cards to 75's or 76's.

 

In addition, where I play in the USA, if I am to play off the white markers, where the course rating is 69.3 (PAR 72), I need to shoot 2 under par for 10 rounds out of 20 to retain my handicap index of 1. However, if I play off the blue markers where the course rating is 73.4, I can shoot 10 rounds of 2 over par and still retain my handicap index. I don't know of any course in Ireland where the SSS differs by 4 shots from white to blue tees (and white are not the furthest forward). Do I think there is a 4 stroke difference in difficulty ? Without doubt ! Could I say the same about CONGU handicapped/SSS rated courses ? Without doubt, but there is rarely a 4 stroke difference in SSS.

 

Maybe I would be able to bring my CONGU handicap closer to my USGA handicap if I were to prepare for the round of golf in the same way. I don't recall ever playing a round of golf in the USA without hitting at least 25 or 30 range balls beforehand. I can count on one hand the amount of times I hit 25/30 range balls in Ireland before a round (and that's over 50 years). I can partly blame the standard of practice facilities, but if I am truthful, it's just plain laziness. I usually arrive at the course 5 to 10 minutes before my tee time. The difference between having an idea where the first drive is going to go and not having any idea has to be worth a stroke or two.

[mjtoal]

As previous posters have said, there is a sizable difference between CONGU and USGA handicaps, even though the USGA don't allocate handicaps as such (handicap index which is used to calculate a player's handicap on any given course, based on slope rating). The USGA handicap index is supposed to be a reflection of a player's potential, measured against what a scratch golfer is expected to score on any given course, whereas a CONGU handicap is based on current ability measured against other CONGU handicap holders. For a combined system to be developed, it will have to be based on one or the other.

 

In my view, one of the main "differences" between CONGU & USGA handicaps has a lot to do with the 10 discarded cards from your previous 20. Under CONGU rules a player, particularly Cat 1, has to be more consistent. For example, if I were to shoot 10 rounds of 74 gross off a 5.4 CONGU handicap when the CSS is 71 and 10 crap scores, my handicap would reduce to 4.4 (cut 10 x .2 + 10 x .1 back). Under the USGA system, assuming a course with a similar rating of 71, my handicap would be 3. I know it's only a one stroke difference, but over time it could be more. If I were to be a 3 CONGU handicap, I would have to convert half of the 10 crap cards to 75's or 76's.

 

In addition, where I play in the USA, if I am to play off the white markers, where the course rating is 69.3 (PAR 72), I need to shoot 2 under par for 10 rounds out of 20 to retain my handicap index of 1. However, if I play off the blue markers where the course rating is 73.4, I can shoot 10 rounds of 2 over par and still retain my handicap index. I don't know of any course in Ireland where the SSS differs by 4 shots from white to blue tees (and white are not the furthest forward). Do I think there is a 4 stroke difference in difficulty ? Without doubt ! Could I say the same about CONGU handicapped/SSS rated courses ? Without doubt, but there is rarely a 4 stroke difference in SSS.

 

Maybe I would be able to bring my CONGU handicap closer to my USGA handicap if I were to prepare for the round of golf in the same way. I don't recall ever playing a round of golf in the USA without hitting at least 25 or 30 range balls beforehand. I can count on one hand the amount of times I hit 25/30 range balls in Ireland before a round (and that's over 50 years). I can partly blame the standard of practice facilities, but if I am truthful, it's just plain laziness. I usually arrive at the course 5 to 10 minutes before my tee time. The difference between having an idea where the first drive is going to go and not having any idea has to be worth a stroke or two.

 

Well the stats differences are tricky. Both schemes (and indeed most of stats) are designed to deal with variability, albeit in different ways. They also set a balance point where good scores drive the handicap more than bad ones - i.e. they are based more around potential rather than typical scores.

 

One problem with CONGU is that streaky or inconsistent players will have lower handicaps than players with the same average score composed of more consistent rounds. This is because the downward pressure on handicaps for good score is greater than the upward pressure (which is also capped) for bad scores. But handicaps can only rise relatively slowly.

 

Within the USGA system, the handicap can rise quite quickly with a run of bad scores.

 

I think there is probably a compromise method somewhere in between.

[DaveLeeNC]

 

snip

 

Within the USGA system, the handicap can rise quite quickly with a run of bad scores.

 

I think there is probably a compromise method somewhere in between.

 

Maybe in comparison with Congu "USGA Indexes can go up quite quickly", but i wouldn't characterize the USGA has a system 'where you index can go up in a hurry'. The worst that can happen if you shoot a really bad score in the USGA system is that whatever score was (in date order) #20 rolls off and is replaced by what was your 11th worst score. And roughly half the time that really bad score has zero effect at that point.

 

OTOH, a really good score shows up immediately in the calculation (effective date may be delayed waiting for the bi-monthly update). I have always viewed the upward movement of USGA indexes being pretty slow. Doesn't mean that Congu isn't even slower.

 

dave

[Newby]

Doesn't mean that Congu isn't even slower.

 

dave

 

The problem has been recognised and as a result, a new feature in CONGU is an automatic prompt to the handicap committee if a player has 7 consecutive poor scores. This will normally give the player an appropriate upwards adjustment.

[PJ72]

Not replying to any particular post, but i get the feeling that the US guys seem to think that the CONGU or European system will reduce the number of sandbaggers. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a both a USGA handicap and a CONGU handicap. Both are genuine in their respective zones, but the CONGU system, particularly in Ireland, is the subject of mass abuse. Yes, scorecards are attested and competition cards only count towards handicap. Unfortunately only singles scorecards count towards handicap, whereas the big money prizes are in fourballs, foursomes, corporate/charity team events and societies. Society competitions are usually singles competitions played on away courses by groups of individuals from pubs, offices etc. Guys deliberately play poorly in counting competitions and build up their handicaps for these "non counting" competitions. In addition, over the winter months when preferred lies on the fairway and clean and drop in the rough are in play, all competitions become "non counting" for handicap purposes. The Governing Body of golf in Ireland, the GUI, have finally started to call sandbaggers "handicap cheats". Heretofore they were called "handicap builders" - progress !!

 

Just to give you an example - I played in a singles competition last year with a well known sandbagger. We were also playing a match for dinner. I only agreed to play the match as I owed him a dinner anyway !! On 2 holes I conceded putts of less than 6". After the round I said to him that he must have a good score, but he said "no" - when I checked the card, on the 2 holes i conceded putts he had entered no score as he didn't tap the ball into the hole. This had the effect of adding 5 or 6 strokes to his score as the system assumed triple bogeys. I refused to sign his card (yes, he was a friend of mine !) and he just ripped it up. I discovered a few days later that the card was counted as a no return and his handicap increased by .1 !!

 

Another problem with the CONGU system is that handicaps are personal and only the player himself can access his handicap online. Nobody knows what scores are being returned. At least in the US we have peer review and access to all posted scores.

 

I agree there should be a worldwide system to try and even things out, but a lot of work will have to go in to make any hybrid system fair to all. At the moment my handicap in Ireland is 5 and I am barely competitive at that. I rarely win nett prizes but am sometimes lucky enough to win a gross prize. In the US my index is .9 and I can compete for gross and nett. Therefore I believe the US system is more accurate. I play about 60 to 70 rounds of golf in the US each year and 40 to 50 rounds in Ireland. In the US all my scores count towards handicap, whereas in Ireland that number would be as low as 15/20.

 

All I can say is that I consider sandbaggers as cheats and they deserve to be weeded out, whichever system is used. Good luck to all involved !!

Great post!

 

It seems crazy that you become competitive with a handicap 4 shots lower in the US than UK. Is that because all the rest of the field have much reduced handicaps too?

 

If the US system was introduced to the UK, my handicap would be around 18, based on 10 out of 20. My handicap here was 6.5, until a recent revision which moved it up to 8.5 due to poor play ( had an injury from an accident and stopped playing for 5 months or so).

 

Now, when i get my game back, I'll be able to play to 7. Imagine if my US handicap was being used?