Will Jack still blame the ball?

[Dave230]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

[Frankensteins Monster]

The ball is fine. The clubs are fine. The game is fine. This argument about the ball being too long is tired and stupid.

[Santiago Golf]

Jack has earned the right to say what he wants but doesn't mean he is right

[Frankensteins Monster]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

Quote where Tiger ever said the ball going to far is a problem and it should be dialed back?

[MtlJeff]

Amateurs arguing over the ball making golf too easy is like guys making 60K a year passionately taking sides in a "which 2500$ wine is better?" argument between billionaires.

[PGArox]

It seems that most WRXers don't agree with Jack and limiting distance which I think is absurd... Screw it, lets get rid of COR limits, let them play whatever they want, we will build 10,000 yard courses and let them hit 500 yard drives with no curve because of ball design.... The game has changed due to equipment for the worse, it's no longer a skill game, the sweet spots so large it makes it so players swing as hard as they want and no curve to worry about with such low spin...

who won the Well's Fargo Championship?

 

He hit a 275 3 wood on last hole....

 

Brian's a beast. :)

[widow-maker]

Jack first started talking about the ball about 10 years ago because he felt he was having to make too many expensive changes to the golf courses he'd already designed and built. I heard him say about 5 years ago that the genie was out of the bottle with equipment companies having spent millions and that there was probably no going back. He really hasn't said anything that isn't true.

 

The USGA has a COR limit in place. So the golf ball has reached a bit of a limit. They've made strides with the dimples and the ball keeps going straighter with less spin. It's great for us amateurs. I hit the ball further at age 66 than I did at age 26. I personally choose to play tees that are set between 6000-6400 yds. Any changes they make to the ball aren't going to bother me because I'll just keep playing with what I've got. But... for the guys on tour... the USGA has to make some decisions as to where they want this all to go.

[DavePelz4]

It seems that most WRXers don't agree with Jack and limiting distance which I think is absurd... Screw it, lets get rid of COR limits, let them play whatever they want, we will build 10,000 yard courses and let them hit 500 yard drives with no curve because of ball design.... The game has changed due to equipment for the worse, it's no longer a skill game, the sweet spots so large it makes it so players swing as hard as they want and no curve to worry about with such low spin...

 

Sir if you play 1 round with me you'll retract the statement regarding skill.

[Dave230]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

Quote where Tiger ever said the ball going to far is a problem and it should be dialed back?

 

His latest book has a chapter about it more or less..

 

Lamenting the decision to lengthen and refortify Augusta National as a result of modern club and ball technology, Woods offers this candid assessment: “The Augusta National I played in 1997 doesn’t play at all like the course now,” and later, “I don’t see how anybody could say it’s a good thing that the ball is going so far. ...If you put today’s players on the Augusta National course I played in ’97, with the equipment we use today, somebody would break 60.”

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-new-book-is-a-vivid-but-cautious-reflection-on-his-landmark-win

[Mark_888]

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

 

I specifically said I agree that the ball goes too far for today's courses and improved clubs.

 

Jack wacked Tiger really hard in the media on the sex scandal thing, and heaped all kinds of praise on Mickelson right after that about what a great family man Phil is (as a thinly disguised slap at the lack of ethics of Tiger). That was before we found out that Phil has a very serious gambling problem and narrowly escaped insider stock trading charges (he had to give back about $1 million of his stock gains). If it had been a normal person, instead of Phil, he would have been indicted on insider trading charges. I haven't seen any comments from Jack on Phil's recent troubles (have you?)..

[lenman73]

Is it a gambling problem if you can afford it ?

[Muirfield Willie]

I personally feel the PGA tour and Web.com or whatever its sponosored by now should play by a separate set of equipment rules than us amateurs, similar to Major League baseball and its affiliates. Just heard what Faldo said on the replay and that's akin to my beliefs as well.

[Dave230]

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

 

I specifically said I agree that the ball goes too far for today's courses and improved clubs.

 

Jack wacked Tiger really hard in the media on the sex scandal thing, and heaped all kinds of praise on Mickelson right after that about what a great family man Phil is (as a thinly disguised slap at the lack of ethics of Tiger). That was before we found out that Phil has a very serious gambling problem and narrowly escaped insider stock trading charges (he had to give back about $1 million of his stock gains). If it had been a normal person, instead of Phil, he would have been indicted on insider trading charges. I haven't seen any comments from Jack on Phil's recent troubles (have you?)..

 

Again despite agreeing with Jack on this point, you're using this thread to bash him for some reason.

 

Anyway, you can't compare Mickelson's insider trading to Tiger Woods scandal. Woods' scandal was one of the biggest news stories of the 21st century, sport or non-sport. Kinda sad that's society today, but it was, I believe it broke some record for most consecutive days on the front cover of a newspaper or something. Impossible not to be asked that, and more than once if you're a prominent golfer at that time. Haven't heard anyone ask about Phil's situation and would it not be strange to bring it up if you weren't.

[Mark_888]

Is it a gambling problem if you can afford it ?

 

Gambling is a problem if someone has to engage in illegal insider stock trading to pay off one's debts.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/understanding-the-mickelson-case-why-lefty-got-lucky

Whether multi-million dollar gambling debts are a problem in general is debatable, even if it is not illegal.

 

By the same token, marital infidelity is not illegal at all, and is up to each couple to decide how to handle that internally.

[Dave230]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

Quote where Tiger ever said the ball going to far is a problem and it should be dialed back?

 

I've got a copy of the book open now, so here are some more distance related quotes/changing golf courses for length.

 

"The day the 12th hole is lengthened to two hundred yards is the day I quit the Masters."

"It's based on our golf ball, which goes too far and doesn't spin nearly as much as the ball we used twenty years ago."

"It's obvious that the ball is going much farther than it did twenty years ago, or even a few years ago."

"The ball has changed that much. It's also carrying so far that guys were reaching the 18th at Baltusrol with mid-irons. It probably makes me sound like an old-timer but I don't how anybody could say it's a good thing that the ball is going so far."

"Driving the ball accurately used to be more important than now...there's not nearly as much emphasis on precise driving now."

"My ears still ring when I hear that a guy has 204 yards to the hole, and he's hitting an eight-iron. It doesn't compute, not where I'm coming from."

"I think adding yardage is a losing battle until the USGA and the R&A get the ball under control"

"There's been some casual discussion about using a ball exclusive to the Masters, but the club has chosen to use more traditional methods at its disposal. I wish it hadn't come to this."

"It's difficult to know the right thing to do to counteract how far the ball is going."

"It's evident that the failure of the ruling bodies to regulate the ball has led to changes that should never have happened."

 

He then talks about Seminole being a drive and a wedge now talks a bit about bringing back persimmon clubs and balata balls. Goes on a bit more but getting tired.

 

From Tiger Woods: My Story 1997 Masters

[Mark_888]

Again despite agreeing with Jack on this point, you're using this thread to bash him for some reason.

 

Anyway, you can't compare Mickelson's insider trading to Tiger Woods scandal. Woods' scandal was one of the biggest news stories of the 21st century, sport or non-sport. Kinda sad that's society today, but it was, I believe it broke some record for most consecutive days on the front cover of a newspaper or something. Impossible not to be asked that, and more than once if you're a prominent golfer at that time. Haven't heard anyone ask about Phil's situation and would it not be strange to bring it up if you weren't.

 

I don't quite understand your point. So you think that Tiger's infidelity is a more serious moral problem than Phil's insider stock trading to pay off his gambling debts? OK, each person can decide that for themselves. Why the Mickelson insider stock trading is not mentioned much in the media, is I guess because sex sells, and illegal insider stock trading is boring (or too complicated) to most people.

 

The point I was trying to make was how Jack really bashed Tiger publically for his marital problems, and specifically used Mickelson as an example of a highly moral person in contrast to Tiger at the time that Tiger's problems were being revealed. But I have not heard anything from Jack about Phil's highly questionable, and borderline illegal, insider stock trading scheme to pay off his multi-million dollar gambling debts. I just wonder why that is?

[Petunia Sprinkle]

More right angle doglegs at 270, or yuge willow leaf oaks in the middle of the fairway ought to do the trick. Better yet, no fairways at all (more environmentally friendly, too).

[widow-maker]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

You've made this into a Jack vs Tiger thing, despite the fact that Tiger agrees with Jack on the distance the ball goes and the problems with the ball.

Quote where Tiger ever said the ball going to far is a problem and it should be dialed back?

 

I've got a copy of the book open now, so here are some more distance related quotes/changing golf courses for length.

 

"The day the 12th hole is lengthened to two hundred yards is the day I quit the Masters."

"It's based on our golf ball, which goes too far and doesn't spin nearly as much as the ball we used twenty years ago."

"It's obvious that the ball is going much farther than it did twenty years ago, or even a few years ago."

"The ball has changed that much. It's also carrying so far that guys were reaching the 18th at Baltusrol with mid-irons. It probably makes me sound like an old-timer but I don't how anybody could say it's a good thing that the ball is going so far."

"Driving the ball accurately used to be more important than now...there's not nearly as much emphasis on precise driving now."

"My ears still ring when I hear that a guy has 204 yards to the hole, and he's hitting an eight-iron. It doesn't compute, not where I'm coming from."

"I think adding yardage is a losing battle until the USGA and the R&A get the ball under control"

"There's been some casual discussion about using a ball exclusive to the Masters, but the club has chosen to use more traditional methods at its disposal. I wish it hadn't come to this."

"It's difficult to know the right thing to do to counteract how far the ball is going."

"It's evident that the failure of the ruling bodies to regulate the ball has led to changes that should never have happened."

 

He then talks about Seminole being a drive and a wedge now talks a bit about bringing back persimmon clubs and balata balls. Goes on a bit more but getting tired.

 

From Tiger Woods: My Story 1997 Masters

Everything Tiger says is right. The USGA blew this 15 years ago. You can't go back now but you can probably figure out a way to cut it off at this point so it doesn't get any further out of hand. Augusta can afford 20 million in land acquisition, but not everybody else can.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

What doesn't compute to me is why it matters that someone can hit an 8-iron from 204 or a mid-iron into 18 at Baltusrol. Why should that need to change? Is it because the people bitching about it can't do it? Because that's exactly what it sounds like when they start popping off about it. Tiger didn't have much of an issue when he hit driver-wedge into 15 in 1997. Jack probably did the same with a toaster and a hatchet (or whatever they were forced to play with back then). Tiger or Jack attempting to say that their games weren't power-based is a joke. The fact that they only made comments about it after they were no longer the longest tells me all I need to know.

[hogans71]

It seems that most WRXers don't agree with Jack and limiting distance which I think is absurd... Screw it, lets get rid of COR limits, let them play whatever they want, we will build 10,000 yard courses and let them hit 500 yard drives with no curve because of ball design.... The game has changed due to equipment for the worse, it's no longer a skill game, the sweet spots so large it makes it so players swing as hard as they want and no curve to worry about with such low spin...

 

Actually, I do agree that the ball specs should be changed to cut down on distance a little. I just don't agree with all the other BS that Jack comes up with (including his worship of Mickelson after the Tiger sex scandals, but before we found out that Phil has a serious mega-million gambling problem and narrowly escaped prosecution for insider stock trading).

 

Worship of Mickelson?

 

Serious mega million gambling problem?

 

Narrowly escaped prosecution?

 

Care to follow up on any/all of that?

[hogans71]

Is it a gambling problem if you can afford it ?

 

Gambling is a problem if someone has to engage in illegal insider stock trading to pay off one's debts.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/understanding-the-mickelson-case-why-lefty-got-lucky

Whether multi-million dollar gambling debts are a problem in general is debatable, even if it is not illegal.

 

By the same token, marital infidelity is not illegal at all, and is up to each couple to decide how to handle that internally.

 

Ahhh.. so you're just a big ol tiger woods fan... Good for you!

 

Is it a gambling problem if you can afford it ?

 

Gambling is a problem if someone has to engage in illegal insider stock trading to pay off one's debts.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/understanding-the-mickelson-case-why-lefty-got-lucky

Whether multi-million dollar gambling debts are a problem in general is debatable, even if it is not illegal.

 

By the same token, marital infidelity is not illegal at all, and is up to each couple to decide how to handle that internally.

 

Ahhh.. so you're just a big ol tiger woods fan... Good for you!

[soap1984]

It's no longer a skill game? What is it exactly?

 

Please teach me how to shoot low scores without skill and a short game. You are just wrong, the game is different now. They have rules to limit performance, driving distance hasn't increased that much in the last ten years; it is still a skill game.

 

No offence to Jack but the fields were a joke when he won his tournaments compared to what they are today, if I were him I'd just keep quiet and say 'the game is different but great' when asked.

[Night train]

Jack first started talking about the ball about 10 years ago because he felt he was having to make too many expensive changes to the golf courses he'd already designed and built. I heard him say about 5 years ago that the genie was out of the bottle with equipment companies having spent millions and that there was probably no going back. He really hasn't said anything that isn't true.

 

The USGA has a COR limit in place. So the golf ball has reached a bit of a limit. They've made strides with the dimples and the ball keeps going straighter with less spin. It's great for us amateurs. I hit the ball further at age 66 than I did at age 26. I personally choose to play tees that are set between 6000-6400 yds. Any changes they make to the ball aren't going to bother me because I'll just keep playing with what I've got. But... for the guys on tour... the USGA has to make some decisions as to where they want this all to go.

 

Jack actually started about the ball going too far back in the mid to late 80's when the Titleist 384 balata came out, it was a LOT better than anything previously made and longer. It was a GREAT ball compared to what it replaced. Jack couldn't believe how much longer it was and started talking about the ball making classic courses obsolete, if something wasn't done.

[bscinstnct]

Again despite agreeing with Jack on this point, you're using this thread to bash him for some reason.

 

Anyway, you can't compare Mickelson's insider trading to Tiger Woods scandal. Woods' scandal was one of the biggest news stories of the 21st century, sport or non-sport. Kinda sad that's society today, but it was, I believe it broke some record for most consecutive days on the front cover of a newspaper or something. Impossible not to be asked that, and more than once if you're a prominent golfer at that time. Haven't heard anyone ask about Phil's situation and would it not be strange to bring it up if you weren't.

 

I don't quite understand your point. So you think that Tiger's infidelity is a more serious moral problem than Phil's insider stock trading to pay off his gambling debts? OK, each person can decide that for themselves. Why the Mickelson insider stock trading is not mentioned much in the media, is I guess because sex sells, and illegal insider stock trading is boring (or too complicated) to most people.

 

The point I was trying to make was how Jack really bashed Tiger publically for his marital problems, and specifically used Mickelson as an example of a highly moral person in contrast to Tiger at the time that Tiger's problems were being revealed. But I have not heard anything from Jack about Phil's highly questionable, and borderline illegal, insider stock trading scheme to pay off his multi-million dollar gambling debts. I just wonder why that is?

 

Jack never bashed TW for anything. Where did you see that?

 

He has always supported TW and seems to have great affection for him. Sits next to TW at the Masters dinner every year.

 

Far as the ball goes, they will never dial it back.

[lumberman2462]

Jack first started talking about the ball about 10 years ago because he felt he was having to make too many expensive changes to the golf courses he'd already designed and built. I heard him say about 5 years ago that the genie was out of the bottle with equipment companies having spent millions and that there was probably no going back. He really hasn't said anything that isn't true.

 

The USGA has a COR limit in place. So the golf ball has reached a bit of a limit. They've made strides with the dimples and the ball keeps going straighter with less spin. It's great for us amateurs. I hit the ball further at age 66 than I did at age 26. I personally choose to play tees that are set between 6000-6400 yds. Any changes they make to the ball aren't going to bother me because I'll just keep playing with what I've got. But... for the guys on tour... the USGA has to make some decisions as to where they want this all to go.

 

Jack actually started about the ball going too far back in the mid to late 80's when the Titleist 384 balata came out, it was a LOT better than anything previously made and longer. It was a GREAT ball compared to what it replaced. Jack couldn't believe how much longer it was and started talking about the ball making classic courses obsolete, if something wasn't done.

 

That was a great ball. Cover wasn't very durable in the early editions but it was such an improvement over everything else that it did change the way you played.

[Mark_888]

Jack never bashed TW for anything. Where did you see that?.

 

Never? That is a very big word. Nicklaus, like many others, bashed him about his marital infidelity. Nicklaus had a right to say those things, and maybe Tiger deserved a lot the bashing he got (although I don't know enough details of what went on inside his marriage to pass total judgement). To be fair, Tiger admitted he made a lot of mistakes and deserved to be bashed for it.

 

What amazes me was that when Nicklaus was bashing Tiger, he simultaneously heaped tons of praise on Mickelson as great family man, and a person of high moral character. So I was wondering why we have not heard any comments from Nicklaus about Phil's multi-million dollar gambling debts and insider stock trading that forced him to return about $1 million in stock profits, while narrowly escaping criminal prosecution.

 

When I talk about Phil's insider stock trading "problems" some on this forum have expressed ignorance, even though I posted a link above that explains what happened.

[widow-maker]

Jack never bashed TW for anything. Where did you see that?.

 

Never? That is a very big word. Nicklaus, like many others, bashed him about his marital infidelity. Nicklaus had a right to say those things, and maybe Tiger deserved a lot the bashing he got (although I don't know enough details of what went on inside his marriage to pass total judgement). To be fair, Tiger admitted he made a lot of mistakes and deserved to be bashed for it.

 

What amazes me was that when Nicklaus was bashing Tiger, he simultaneously heaped tons of praise on Mickelson as great family man, and a person of high moral character. So I was wondering why we have not heard any comments from Nicklaus about Phil's multi-million dollar gambling debts and insider stock trading that forced him to return about $1 million in stock profits, while narrowly escaping criminal prosecution.

 

When I talk about Phil's insider stock trading "problems" some on this forum have expressed ignorance, even though I posted a link above that explains what happened.

Well, it would be up to some reporter to ask him the question, wouldn't it. It's not like he's going to come out with a random statement about Phil's gambling. I'm sure that whatever he said about Tiger came about because somebody asked him a question about him. What was anybody supposed to say back then about Tiger's well publicized infidelity? Not a lot of people speak out favorably about infidelity. Tiger himself in his press conference didn't try to defend himself. As far as Phil and his family... what exactly did Jack say about them that wasn't true, and isn't still true to this day?

[Mark_888]

Ahhh.. so you're just a big ol tiger woods fan... Good for you!

I think Tiger is (or was) a very good golfer. But that is not the subject of this discussion.

 

The discussion is a comparison of marital infidelity (not illegal) with insider stock trading (which is illegal). If both Tiger and Phil deserve to be bashed for their actions, then fine. But I don't hear many people talking about Phil's "problems" and specifically haven't heard Nicklaus mention them, even though Nicklaus promoted Phil as a person of great family values and high moral character precisely at the time that Tiger was having his problems.

[bscinstnct]

Jack never bashed TW for anything. Where did you see that?.

Never? That is a very big word. Nicklaus, like many others, bashed him about his marital infidelity. Nicklaus had a right to say those things, and maybe Tiger deserved a lot the bashing he got (although I don't know what on inside his marriage to pass total judgement). To be fair, Tiger admitted he made a lot of mistakes and deserved to be bashed for it.

 

What amazes me was that when Nicklaus was bashing Tiger, he simultaneously heaped tons of praise on Mickelson as great family man, and a person of high moral character. So I was wondering why we have not heard any comments from Nicklaus about Phil's multi-million dollar gambling debts and insider stock trading that forced him to return about $1 million in stock profits, while narrowly escaping criminal prosecution.

 

When I talk about Phil's insider stock trading "problems" some on this forum have expressed ignorance, even though I posted a link above that explains what happened.

 

Jack *never* bashed TW about that or anything. You are mistaken.

[Mark_888]

As far as Phil and his family... what exactly did Jack say about them that wasn't true?

 

I never said that Jack said things about Phil's family that were not true. What Jack did was put forth Phil as a person of exceptionally high moral character. IMO, a person who has multi-million dollar gambling debts that need to be paid off with illegal profits from insider stock trading is not a person of high moral character.