Posting shamble score

[Augster]

The second round, tomorrow, is a 2-man shamble. Rules: we both tee off, take the best drive, LCP anywhere it is, then play my own ball the rest of the way in.

 

There will be LCP in your own fairway for all shots.

 

It is possible we will take my drive in 13 of 18 holes.

 

Can I post this round if I get 13 holes with my drive? Or does the LCP everywhere on the drive mess that up or is an agreement to waive? Or what?

[LeoLeo99]

You been drinking?

[bladehunter]

I played in a tournament this morning and my round was a shambles. Does that count ?

[Augster]

Yes it counts.

 

And no, I haven't been drinking. In theory, if my partner hits it bad enough, we'll use my drive on all 18 tomorrow. Then I play my own ball in. It's not a scramble.

[mark m]

Hi Augster:

 

I would not post it. If you take par plus strokes on the holes where you use your partners drive (shamble format) - it may accurately reflect what you would have shot playing your own ball - but it may not as well. I don't know if you are an erratic driver of the ball, but consider a player who is erratic. He may hit tee shots OB, in water, in the trees, etc - in bad places - and then use his partners tee balls on those holes. And take par plus handicap strokes when in fact he may have made a much bigger number on those holes playing his own ball. So basically, he would likely be using only tee balls in play (for scoring purposes) and playing LCP from there and those holes should or may produce slightly above average scores than if he was playing a typical stroke play round under the rules. On the other holes where he uses his partners tee ball, he may have had higher scores than par plus handicap strokes if he was playing his own ball. I personally don't like scores posted using LCP, and this adds an additional concern.

 

I hope this explanation makes sense. I think it's too different from playing your own ball and could produce a score not reflective of ability. You could email the USGA and see what they say. Good luck in your tournament!

 

Best,

Mark

[Augster]

Thanks Mark.

 

That was the idea. If we take my partner's ball for a hole, I'd take par plus for that hole. But if we use 7 of 9 in a 9 or 13 of 18 of my tee balls, I'd post.

 

As a 6, par plus would likely be a lower score on a hole than what I'd make if I were OB etc. It'd also be lower than ESC. Not many folks would care if I vanity cap myself.

 

I'm mostly concerned with the LCP everywhere on the drive. I know the rounds, for agreeing to waive the actual rules of golf, would be DQ, but even in a DQ round if you have enough holes played by the ROG you should post.

 

I'll just see how it turns out. My partner drives it better than me so we'll likely be taking his most of the time anyway.

[LeoLeo99]

Having your partner middle of the fairway 250 out so you can free wheel your drive isn't the same as knowing your drive counts for better or worse.

 

A tight rope walker with a safety net vs no net are two different things.

[WBGolf]

I'm in agreement with the others, don't submit the score for handicap purposes. Even if you used your tee shot on every hole, I'd say don't submit it. Good luck in the tourney! Sounds like a fun format

[Shilgy]

No you cannot and should not post.

[b.helts]

No man.

 

A shamble!?!

 

No!!

[Matt J]

I can't imagine posting a LCP round even on my own ball.

[tatertot]

Why in the world would you want to?

[QEight]

I can't imagine posting a LCP round even on my own ball.

 

Even if in stroke play tournament?

[Augster]

I don't really get to "free wheel". I hit first. Of course, I hit first knowing my partner will likely "pick me up" if I fail, but that's the same for any 2-man event and they are postable.

 

Why would I want to?

 

Nobody's handicap is more legit than mine is. Many are as legitimate as mine is, but nobody is more. I post every postable round.

 

I'm a 6 at that course. For arguments sake, let's say I'm striping it and playing well. I hit first, hit all the fairways, and we take my tee shots on the par 3's. I shoot 67 on my own ball. A score I've shot on this course in the past.

 

I shouldn't post that???

 

When I get back to my home club and tell my friends I shot 72-67 this weekend but only posted one of them, the higher one, I'd likely be suspended for an event or have them post it for me.

 

As I say, I want to have as legitimate a cap as I possibly can.

 

More than likely we won't use 7 of 9 or 13 of 18 of my drives. BUT if we did, I think I have to post it. Just based on the hypothetical above.

[Matt J]

You didn't shoot 67 if it was a Shamble.

 

No, I wouldn't post my round if LCP is in effect unless maybe a state sanctioned tourney. Certainly not a men's club event. First rule of golf and all...

[nsxguy]

I can't imagine posting a LCP round even on my own ball.

 

So then your handicap's might not be valid.

 

It's not up to you, it's up to the Committee.

7-1. Acceptability of Scores When Playing Preferred Lies

 

Scores made when a Local Rule for preferred lies (winter rules,) is in effect must be posted for handicap purposes unless the Committee (preferably the Handicap Committee in consultation with the Committee in charge of the course) determines that course conditions are so poor that such scores are not acceptable and should not be posted.

 

 

Now if you're playing a casual round with friends,,,,,,,,,,, Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,, I wonder. :dntknw:

[QEight]

You didn't shoot 67 if it was a Shamble.

 

No, I wouldn't post my round if LCP is in effect unless maybe a state sanctioned tourney. Certainly not a men's club event. First rule of golf and all...

 

And then there are other rules.

[bdcava]

I don't really get to "free wheel". I hit first. Of course, I hit first knowing my partner will likely "pick me up" if I fail, but that's the same for any 2-man event and they are postable.

 

Why would I want to?

 

Nobody's handicap is more legit than mine is. Many are as legitimate as mine is, but nobody is more. I post every postable round.

 

I'm a 6 at that course. For arguments sake, let's say I'm striping it and playing well. I hit first, hit all the fairways, and we take my tee shots on the par 3's. I shoot 67 on my own ball. A score I've shot on this course in the past.

 

I shouldn't post that???

 

When I get back to my home club and tell my friends I shot 72-67 this weekend but only posted one of them, the higher one, I'd likely be suspended for an event or have them post it for me.

 

As I say, I want to have as legitimate a cap as I possibly can.

 

More than likely we won't use 7 of 9 or 13 of 18 of my drives. BUT if we did, I think I have to post it. Just based on the hypothetical above.

 

They sound like great friends.

[Under2hours]

Boy are you guys over the top... Wow I say yet again. You play so many rounds and worry about this as if it really affects your standing and HC? And you have friends doing the same and looking over your shoulder ready to report to some committee?

[Shilgy]

Augster, when you play a scramble do you post what you think you would have shot based on your ball striking and putting that day? Assuming normal shamble rules where you have to use your partners tee shot at least six times how in the heck can you post?

[Augster]

As played, we used my drive 8 out of 9 times on the front, and 4 out of 9 on the back.

 

A shamble is not a scramble.

 

There are no rules in so far as how many times we had to use a partners ball. Moreover, the player who's tee ball was chosen was able to LCP in the fairway, but had to play it as it lies if hit into the rough.

 

In my hypothetical, if we had used all 18 of my drives, I'd have to think that was a postable round. There'd be no difference between that and a regular round of golf score-wise. The only difference is that shamble isn't a sanctioned form of play.

 

I'll contact the USGA.

[tatertot]

As played, we used my drive 8 out of 9 times on the front, and 4 out of 9 on the back.

 

A shamble is not a scramble.

 

There are no rules in so far as how many times we had to use a partners ball. Moreover, the player who's tee ball was chosen was able to LCP in the fairway, but had to play it as it lies if hit into the rough.

 

In my hypothetical, if we had used all 18 of my drives, I'd have to think that was a postable round. There'd be no difference between that and a regular round of golf score-wise. The only difference is that shamble isn't a sanctioned form of play.

 

I'll contact the USGA.

 

Let us know what the USGA says ... only paraphrase, we all know they don't like it when we post their emails.

[Matt J]

No offense but I think you're over thinking this.

 

As soon as you break a rule of golf you're not playing a round in regulation.

 

As soon as you played your partners ball position, or bumped a ball in the fairway you're not playing a round in reg.

 

Don't get me wrong I understand your point, we have a lot of local players that play two rounds a week they don't post due to format. But, you're not one of those guys. I think there's too little information to truly extrapolate a score, but to each their own.

[sekrah]

Why on earth would anyone even want to post a score where you benefit by a different set of rules? Looking for that vanity handicap to hang on your wall?

[Augster]

No offense but I think you're over thinking this.

 

As soon as you break a rule of golf you're not playing a round in regulation.

 

As soon as you played your partners ball position, or bumped a ball in the fairway you're not playing a round in reg.

 

Don't get me wrong I understand your point, we have a lot of local players that play two rounds a week they don't post due to format. But, you're not one of those guys. I think there's too little information to truly extrapolate a score, but to each their own.

 

You can definitely move a ball in a fairway when the committee has allowed LCP as a local rule, which they had.

 

One of the conditions for not posting is when you knowingly break a rule and don't apply the penalty for your score.

 

Section C in the handicap manual under "acceptability of scores" is fairly all-encompassing:

 

" c. Scores in All Forms of Competition

 

Scores in both match play and stroke play must be posted for handicap purposes. This includes scores made in match play, in multi-ball, or in team competitions in which players have not completed one or more holes or in which players are requested to pick up when out of contention on a hole. (See Section 4 and Decision 5-1c/1, 5-2a/5, 5-2a/7.)"

 

Scores in ALL forms of competition. In this case, it's a stroke play team format.

 

 

[Matt J]

Using the best drive. Which is not stroke play. You obviously want to post it, so have at it. Let's face it, it's a system with her little accountability.

[nix]

If and only if you use your drive on all 18. If you use his drive once, then no. But if you use your own drive every time, then yes.

[LeoLeo99]

If and only if you use your drive on all 18. If you use his drive once, then no. But if you use your own drive every time, then yes.

 

So, you're teeing off on the first hole knowing you're only going to post the round if certain things go a certain way during the course of play?

[b.helts]

If and only if you use your drive on all 18. If you use his drive once, then no. But if you use your own drive every time, then yes.

 

No dude. What if he's a better player than his partner and his partner goes first on every hole? On a couple his partner is in the fairway so he takes a rip with driver over a corner or a creek or something. Now, he happens to pull it off so they use his very aggressive, very good drive. He likely wouldn't have tried that had he been playing medal play.

 

There is no way a shamble score should be posted, IMO.

 

I'm definitely interested in what the USGA comes back with.

[smeech8000]

Having your partner middle of the fairway 250 out so you can free wheel your drive isn't the same as knowing your drive counts for better or worse.

 

A tight rope walker with a safety net vs no net are two different things.

What if he's a better player than his partner and his partner goes first on every hole? On a couple his partner is in the fairway so he takes a rip with driver over a corner or a creek or something. Now, he happens to pull it off so they use his very aggressive, very good drive. He likely wouldn't have tried that had he been playing medal play.

 

I understand the premise you guys are getting at, but the game is not played in a vacuum. During any round of golf each player will experience ebbs and flows of advantage gained or lost with respect to the performance of partners, opponents, or fellow-competitors.

 

Continuing on this train of logic, how can you also allow casual rounds to count towards index calculation? We know there's no way to moderate - or prove - intent during a casual round so that a player maintains the same level of risk management as he would during a competitive round. Theoretically you could have a player "legally" gaming the system by adopting a riskier attitude for casual rounds and gearing down for tournaments so that they effectively gain a handful of shots simply by choosing to play safer and keep it in between the lines that day.

 

What about a fourball match where your partner goes first, kills a drive and also gets a stroke? While their score is not guaranteed to be the team score at that point, it undoubtedly reduces the pressure on your performance for the hole.