Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[mallrat]

On 6/18/2025 at 9:19 AM, jcook10 said:

Maybe to piggyback off the last post regarding Primo growth regulator. Would this sort of product contribute to the overall "firmness" of a course? My course is a sand based prairie style course in Illinois that struggles with firmness. The course is only 25 years old so maybe that is another contributing factor. If the humidity gets to a point where you can feel it in the air our turf becomes a sponge. What can be done to improve the firmness of fairways, green approaches, etc.

Topdressing and no over watering. 
 

When you say the ground becomes a sponge, is it through the grass to the ground? Like does it feel like stepping on a sponge but firm a little down? That would be a thatch issue. 
 

They could also address drainage. We redo a fairway every winter. Normally from the 150 pole to collections. 

[mallrat]

On 6/17/2025 at 12:01 PM, smashdn said:

Cost to build a new tee?

 

Assume it will only be used by the farthest back set of tee markers, so fairly light traffic.  30x50 feet sound about right for width and length?  Height I would guess 2-2.5' off of base grade.  Clay base soils, bentgrass on the tee area proper and slopes in fescue/bluegrass roughs.

 

Reason I am asking is we have a small fund for course improvements (raised voluntarily by membership for this specific purpose) and I was curious if a new tee (to provide a very few yards more length but much tougher angle) would be within the budget.  Historically the money has been used for things that are more aesthetic than impacting play.

Are you going to sod or seed it? How good is the agronomy team on equipment?

 

Costs - 

rent a skid steer with front blade and laser level (we owned a transit so just needed the attachments on the skid steer)

bent sod

rough sod

topsoil

sand

assume they have a sod cutter and plate compactor 

 

No idea what these run in your area but also need to make sure the area you are adding is irrigated. Just things to think about 

[TexasTurf]

On 6/17/2025 at 2:01 PM, smashdn said:

Cost to build a new tee?

 

Assume it will only be used by the farthest back set of tee markers, so fairly light traffic.  30x50 feet sound about right for width and length?  Height I would guess 2-2.5' off of base grade.  Clay base soils, bentgrass on the tee area proper and slopes in fescue/bluegrass roughs.

 

Reason I am asking is we have a small fund for course improvements (raised voluntarily by membership for this specific purpose) and I was curious if a new tee (to provide a very few yards more length but much tougher angle) would be within the budget.  Historically the money has been used for things that are more aesthetic than impacting play.

As the other guys have said, if you do it in house it will be cheap, if you hire an outside contractor it will be about 5 times more. That's not an exaggeration. 

[596]

On 6/19/2025 at 7:11 PM, mallrat said:

Guy cutting cups is leaving the plugs too high and they are getting scalped. 

As far as old cups. 

Low=grow or high=die.  

You can always bring the good grass up to level. But it's much harder to lower and recover a scaped plug.

[Llortamaisey]

General curiosity question for the grass gurus out there… how will the Tahoma do at the patch in Augusta. I haven’t heard of wall to wall Tahoma on many courses in Georgia. I know that Tree Farm down the road has it wall to wall but I assume the soil is much sandier compared to more clay in Augusta. Didn’t know if that would come into play. 

[caniac6]

Our course closed last year for about 8 months to do a renovation. We built new greens, with a heat tolerant 007 bentgrass, a lot of new bunkers, and new irrigation system. Our new greens are absolutely horrible. The course was closed last week for maintenance, so I hadn’t played for about 10 days. The greens have a lot of bare spots. The guy that cuts holes is putting the plugs back too high, and they are getting scalped. It looks like a couple greens are on the edge of getting lost. The members are very upset. Our old greens were 70 years old, and they were healthier than our new greens. I’m not sure what they can do to recover. Raise mowing height? Mow less often? Roll less ? I know these things will affect playability, but we need some grass.

[Holy Moses]

20 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Our course closed last year for about 8 months to do a renovation. We built new greens, with a heat tolerant 007 bentgrass, a lot of new bunkers, and new irrigation system. Our new greens are absolutely horrible. The course was closed last week for maintenance, so I hadn’t played for about 10 days. The greens have a lot of bare spots. The guy that cuts holes is putting the plugs back too high, and they are getting scalped. It looks like a couple greens are on the edge of getting lost. The members are very upset. Our old greens were 70 years old, and they were healthier than our new greens. I’m not sure what they can do to recover. Raise mowing height? Mow less often? Roll less ? I know these things will affect playability, but we need some grass.

Has it been a hot summer? Dry? Humid? 

[caniac6]

27 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Has it been a hot summer? Dry? Humid? 

It been hot and humid, but this particular grass is supposed to be heat tolerant. 

[Holy Moses]

14 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

It been hot and humid, but this particular grass is supposed to be heat tolerant. 

Take a few pictures. I bet everyone could figure out what is going on.

[caniac6]

4 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Take a few pictures. I bet everyone could figure out what is going on.

They were originally talking about using bermuda, but the owner prefers bentgrass. In hindsight they should have gone with bermuda.

[caniac6]

Just got notification that our 17th hole is closed.

[mallrat]

On 7/15/2025 at 12:54 PM, caniac6 said:

Our course closed last year for about 8 months to do a renovation. We built new greens, with a heat tolerant 007 bentgrass, a lot of new bunkers, and new irrigation system. Our new greens are absolutely horrible. The course was closed last week for maintenance, so I hadn’t played for about 10 days. The greens have a lot of bare spots. The guy that cuts holes is putting the plugs back too high, and they are getting scalped. It looks like a couple greens are on the edge of getting lost. The members are very upset. Our old greens were 70 years old, and they were healthier than our new greens. I’m not sure what they can do to recover. Raise mowing height? Mow less often? Roll less ? I know these things will affect playability, but we need some grass.

First off, imo, what the hell is heat tolerant? You still have to manage it. It’s hard to give you an answer without knowing the Supers program. What’s he mowing at height wise? Spray program? Proper wetting agents? Could it be winter kill that never recovered? Could there be problems with the irrigation system? And yes, all the things you mentioned have an effect. At least 1 day a week we do not touch our greens besides watering them. 
 

We are a Poa course but we have moved from growing grass to managing grass. You might get a little growth but at this point in the summer I don’t see a ton growing back. 
 

If it’s that bad, for me, I would needle tine and then seed the heck out of it. Followed by slit seeding (never had to do it on a green before though). 

Edited July 17 by mallrat

[caniac6]

Obviously, it still has to be managed, but it’s supposed to be able to tolerate the heat better than some of the older types of bent. The trend here has been to convert from bent to bermuda, and these new bents are supposed to be an alternative to bermuda. Two much higher end courses than our course, Alamance Country Club, and Raleigh Country Club did this with great results. I googled” the grass used on greens at Alamance Country Club”, and found a good article. We were going to use bermuda, but the owner and gm went to Alamance, and fell in love with their greens. They used Pure Eclipse, as did Raleigh. We went with 007 despite the proven success of the other at two locations that are slightly hotter than our location.
  I can’t speak to everything the super is doing, but our course was closed last week for maintenance. They plugged fairways and tee, and I’m not sure if they needle tined the greens, or pulled very small plugs. All I know is that the week before maintenance, the greens were pretty good, and Tuesday, there were bare spots on every green, and a couple of the greens are in real trouble. Also, on every green there are a lot of cup sized bare spots where the plug was put back too high, and scalped by the mower. The number of these is really surprising, and makes me believe the guys are not being taught, or supervised properly.

  Just prior to the renovation, our experienced super was promoted to gm, and the assistant was promoted to super. Our existing gm, who had never worked at a course, was put into a position of being in charge of the project. So, we had three people in positions they were not qualified for. It would be a understatement to say we are not run well.

  One more thing, we were closed from April, and supposed to open in December, but we opened about 3 weeks earlier. At the time, the greens did not look ready to me. 

Edited July 17 by caniac6

[mallrat]

7 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Obviously, it still has to be managed, but it’s supposed to be able to tolerate the heat better than some of the older types of bent. The trend here has been to convert from bent to bermuda, and these new bents are supposed to be an alternative to bermuda. Two much higher end courses than our course, Alamance Country Club, and Raleigh Country Club did this with great results. I googled” the grass used on greens at Alamance Country Club”, and found a good article. We were going to use bermuda, but the owner and gm went to Alamance, and fell in love with their greens. They used Pure Eclipse, as did Raleigh. We went with 007 despite the proven success of the other at two locations that are slightly hotter than our location.
  I can’t speak to everything the super is doing, but our course was closed last week for maintenance. They plugged fairways and tee, and I’m not sure if they needle tined the greens, or pulled very small plugs. All I know is that the week before maintenance, the greens were pretty good, and Tuesday, there were bare spots on every green, and a couple of the greens are in real trouble. Also, on every green there are a lot of cup sized bare spots where the plug was put back too high, and scalped by the mower. The number of these is really surprising, and makes me believe the guys are not being taught, or supervised properly.

  Just prior to the renovation, our experienced super was promoted to gm, and the assistant was promoted to super. Our existing gm, who had never worked at a course, was put into a position of being in charge of the project. So, we had three people in positions they were not qualified for. It would be a understatement to say we are not run well.

  One more thing, we were closed from April, and supposed to open in December, but we opened about 3 weeks earlier. At the time, the greens did not look ready to me. 

I didn’t mean the “heat tolerance” directed at you, just funny to me. 
 

So the greens were ok the week before being closed? Are the spots bare or does it look like the turf is dying? Needling tining, when done right, you wouldn’t notice 2 days later. Maybe they used a small tube and didn’t pull a core. 
 

Do you normally close for a week or was something else going on? Is it standard practice down there to close for a week in summer and aerify? Curious if he tried something and didn’t pull it off. I got a new super a couple years ago and he claimed our course was really thatchy (it wasn’t). Came in and Gradened (very aggressive verticutter, power rake) a bunch of stuff 2 directions and some areas weren’t healed 2 years later

[caniac6]

38 minutes ago, mallrat said:

I didn’t mean the “heat tolerance” directed at you, just funny to me. 
 

So the greens were ok the week before being closed? Are the spots bare or does it look like the turf is dying? Needling tining, when done right, you wouldn’t notice 2 days later. Maybe they used a small tube and didn’t pull a core. 
 

Do you normally close for a week or was something else going on? Is it standard practice down there to close for a week in summer and aerify? Curious if he tried something and didn’t pull it off. I got a new super a couple years ago and he claimed our course was really thatchy (it wasn’t). Came in and Gradened (very aggressive verticutter, power rake) a bunch of stuff 2 directions and some areas weren’t healed 2 years later

This is the first time in the five years I have been a member that they closed for a week for maintenance. I had heard that they were going to do the areas of the course with bermuda, which would be everything except the greens. You just don’t punch bentgrass greens in the heat of the summer. It’s too stressful. I have worked at courses where we have solid tined specific areas of greens, but not entire greens. The bare areas look dead.  They were not there prior to the maintenance. Everybody was very happy and positive because the scars from the renovation were healing nicely. This has been a giant step back, and the guys I play with are pretty angry. I talked with the gm today, and he didn’t say what caused the issues, but he said they reseeded #17, and are going to cut back on daily maintenance, and spoon feed the greens until they recover. I’m keeping my fingers crossed. We are supposed to host a week long junior match play tournament put on by the Carolinas Golf Association in about 10 days. 

[Holy Moses]

We need pictures

[smashdn]

On 7/15/2025 at 3:44 PM, caniac6 said:

It been hot and humid, but this particular grass is supposed to be heat tolerant. 

 

Probably is after it is established.  Old bent varieties can take heat as well provided they aren't scalped and given a splash to cool the canopy when needed.

 

Our bent tees are not healing fast at the moment.  Bent growth slows down in the heat.  We are KY-TN border.

[Holy Moses]

23 hours ago, caniac6 said:

This is the first time in the five years I have been a member that they closed for a week for maintenance. I had heard that they were going to do the areas of the course with bermuda, which would be everything except the greens. You just don’t punch bentgrass greens in the heat of the summer. It’s too stressful. I have worked at courses where we have solid tined specific areas of greens, but not entire greens. The bare areas look dead.  They were not there prior to the maintenance. Everybody was very happy and positive because the scars from the renovation were healing nicely. This has been a giant step back, and the guys I play with are pretty angry. I talked with the gm today, and he didn’t say what caused the issues, but he said they reseeded #17, and are going to cut back on daily maintenance, and spoon feed the greens until they recover. I’m keeping my fingers crossed. We are supposed to host a week long junior match play tournament put on by the Carolinas Golf Association in about 10 days. 

If they punched bent greens in the south in the summer they are crazy

[caniac6]

Just now, Holy Moses said:

If they punched bent greens in the south in the summer they are crazy

100%! I worked in Fayetteville NC, and that is a really hot place. We had old Penncross greens. We worked our tails off just to keep them alive. The greens I’m complaining about were ok prior to the maintenance week.

[mallrat]

32 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

If they punched bent greens in the south in the summer they are crazy

Our greens, in Oregon, vary from 70 Poa to 30 bent to 90% Poa to 10 bent. Even here we wouldn’t think of pulling cores in the summer. We generally needle or deep tine once a summer but that’s it. We’d come in at midnight. Work until 4:30-5 start topdressing around 6 and be done by noon. 

[mshills]

1 hour ago, Holy Moses said:

If they punched bent greens in the south in the summer they are crazy

100%. That’s like TRYING to get fired. 

[Llortamaisey]

7 minutes ago, mshills said:

100%. That’s like TRYING to get fired. 

That’s like going to a Coldplay concert with your head of HR and getting on the kiss cam. 

[caniac6]

I went to the course today to practice putting, and walked out to 9 & 18, and the color looked bad. Slight yellow color. 

[mallrat]

4 hours ago, caniac6 said:

I went to the course today to practice putting, and walked out to 9 & 18, and the color looked bad. Slight yellow color. 

Wonder if he sprayed the wrong thing? Too much growth regulator? Maybe something with 2-4-D. I’m pretty sure it says compatible but our bent grass is not a fan of it. Especially when new. Another course I know of sprayed the wrong wetting agent, sprayed their winter one, ooops. 

[TexasTurf]

9 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

If they punched bent greens in the south in the summer they are crazy

They need oxygen this time of year, it's not that crazy. if you have guys there until 5 or 6 PM every day to give them the moisture they need but nothing more. More air movement above and below the ground the better. They get hydrophobic and closed off otherwise. We do it in Dallas in August and it improves them with the same grass that he has. 

 

Obviously I don't know what's going on there but with his comment of them turning yellow, that's a sign of too much water.

 

To little water, they will turn "purple" then white, then light brown or grey when the leaves start to die, but it will come back and start pushing new leaves.

 

If it turns yellow and orange, and looks slimy and kind of like cheese, then it's way too wet and is about to die, and won't come back. 

 

Bermuda and zoysia the exact opposite, yellow and orange mean stressed but in good shape. Bentgrass yellow and orange in summer = worst case scenario in our location.

 

Like others have said, without pictures, we're just guessing.

[Holy Moses]

47 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

They need oxygen this time of year, it's not that crazy. if you have guys there until 5 or 6 PM every day to give them the moisture they need but nothing more. More air movement above and below the ground the better. They get hydrophobic and closed off otherwise. We do it in Dallas in August and it improves them with the same grass that he has. 

 

Obviously I don't know what's going on there but with his comment of them turning yellow, that's a sign of too much water.

 

To little water, they will turn "purple" then white, then light brown or grey when the leaves start to die, but it will come back and start pushing new leaves.

 

If it turns yellow and orange, and looks slimy and kind of like cheese, then it's way too wet and is about to die, and won't come back. 

 

Bermuda and zoysia the exact opposite, yellow and orange mean stressed but in good shape. Bentgrass yellow and orange in summer = worst case scenario in our location.

 

Like others have said, without pictures, we're just guessing.

I just don’t think aerating cool season greens during a time of severe stress is a good idea

[caniac6]

5 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

They need oxygen this time of year, it's not that crazy. if you have guys there until 5 or 6 PM every day to give them the moisture they need but nothing more. More air movement above and below the ground the better. They get hydrophobic and closed off otherwise. We do it in Dallas in August and it improves them with the same grass that he has. 

 

Obviously I don't know what's going on there but with his comment of them turning yellow, that's a sign of too much water.

 

To little water, they will turn "purple" then white, then light brown or grey when the leaves start to die, but it will come back and start pushing new leaves.

 

If it turns yellow and orange, and looks slimy and kind of like cheese, then it's way too wet and is about to die, and won't come back. 

 

Bermuda and zoysia the exact opposite, yellow and orange mean stressed but in good shape. Bentgrass yellow and orange in summer = worst case scenario in our location.

 

Like others have said, without pictures, we're just guessing.

Also, black algae is appearing in thin/bare areas.

[caniac6]

5 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

I just don’t think aerating cool season greens during a time of severe stress is a good idea

We actually skipped the fall aeration following a particularly bad summer in Fayetteville. A course I used to play did their fall/ late summer aeration on a day in the mid 90s, and pretty much lost their greens. It’s really getting bad at the club. We lost members when the course closed for the renovation, and a lot of the guys that stayed are very upset over the current conditions. I am considering leaving, but I really like the guys I play with. To use a couple cliches, I don’t want to cut my nose off to spite my face, but I don’t want to throw good money after bad.

Edited July 19 by caniac6

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Also, black algae is appearing in thin/bare areas.

What I have seen, keeping in my mind I am not a super, not in the business and only had one GC Mngt class in college, is that you have to break that up and sand it or get down to greens mix to get the turf to spread into those bare areas.  But you likely are not getting aggressive growth this time of year.

 

We have one green they redid the bunkers, drainage and expanded the collars on.  Work was completed last fall but they still had to come back in 3-4 months ago and put some plugs in the periphery of the work areas where the bent, green turf was compromised. It doesn't look great still.  It just has not "knit" in just yet.  They reclaimed some green area though and can really tuck some pins when desired.

[mallrat]

17 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Also, black algae is appearing in thin/bare areas.

is it algae? Or could it have been moss? I know Quiksilver, what most courses here use to treat moss, can wreak havoc on greens, including killing them if you go a little too heavy.