Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[golfortennis]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:35 PM, mallrat said:

I know very little about some of the those grasses. 
 

- Zoysia I have only seen pictures of. That said I know that some of the biggest advancements in grass and hybrid turfs has been in Zoysia. Take Trinity Zoysia, it’s a newer hybrid that was developed specifically for Trinity Forest in Dallas. 
 

- Bermuda I’ve played a handful of times but never managed or taken care of it in any way. When I think of Bermuda I think of “sticky” but may be way off and have no problem admitting it. 
 

- Bentgrass is viewed by many as the standard in the highest quality greens. A lot of strides have been made in hybrid Bents also. Bent is more drought tolerant than Poa but is harder to bring back. Bent is a cool season grass so while the greens may be pristine in summer conditions the greens are simply being managed well and not thriving. Another huge positive of bent is that there are many disease tolerant strains. 
 

- Poa, Poa gets a bad rap. There are some outstanding Poa greens and there are plenty of good ones. The biggest problem is when Poa invades a green that is predominantly another grass. Poa has to be maintained very differently than many turfs. Poa is susceptible to (if I remember correctly) 14 of 16 major turf diseases. You need to have an expansive spray and cultural practices program (verticutting, topdressing, solid tining) to manage it well. One bright side is you can almost always water your way out of it with Poa. If you get the chance Tacoma golf & country club, Bend country club and Royal Oaks country club all have Poa greens that are as good as any greens you will see. One huge issue is that there are no disease tolerant strains of Poa. Also, there is very little research done on Poa, partly because 75% of the industry views it as a weed. 
 

There’s an old joke that dog p!ss patch is the most common turf disease. Honestly not sure what you can do about it. 

 

 

 

We get a lot of poa in our greens at our course in Southwestern Ontario.  I've mentioned the bumpy late in the day with poa thing and he says it's not true.  So which is it? 🙂

 

Regardless he did spend a lot of time getting a lot of it out of our greens.  We used to shut down in August for major punching, but the fruits of that have borne and now it's just a light punch.  My complaint is inconsistent speeds, but that's more about the budget he is given to work with as opposed to his skill.

  

 

[ArtMBgolf]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:31 PM, caniac6 said:

Our course is thinking about converting from bentgrass greens to Bermuda. We are located on north central NC, and get some cold spells during the winter. I have read that Tiff Eagle and Mini Verde are more cold tolerant than Champions, but the courses that have converted in the area have installed Champions. Are there negatives to the TE and MV vs the Champions? Also, I have heard there are some new, very heat tolerant Bent out there.What do you know about them? Thanks

BNGL explained the technical reasons for the various hybrid bermuda greens, temp, soil, light, etc. 
 
I am a golfer, not a super, but I have played on all those hybrids in Myrtle Beach.  For golfers, they all 
appear to play the same, assuming the same grooming and stimp.   Recent new greens around 
Myrtle Beach are Sunday Hybrid, after the bad cold spell about 5 years ago.  The blades on Sunday 
look bigger to me, so they are not as smooth if they get hairy.   
 
The Dunes in MB has Champions greens and they are the best in MB, but they also no doubt have
the highest budget and the least play.  

 
Crow Creek in MB has the new heat tolerant Bent called V8.   It seems more tolerant, but not as 
tolerant as the hybrids.     

[mallrat]

7 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

We get a lot of poa in our greens at our course in Southwestern Ontario.  I've mentioned the bumpy late in the day with poa thing and he says it's not true.  So which is it? 🙂

 

Regardless he did spend a lot of time getting a lot of it out of our greens.  We used to shut down in August for major punching, but the fruits of that have borne and now it's just a light punch.  My complaint is inconsistent speeds, but that's more about the budget he is given to work with as opposed to his skill.

  

 

Poa by itself is fine, it’s when you have the mixture that the bumpiness occurs. So in a way we are both right 🤷‍♂️ Poa does not play well with others. 

[Nels55]

At my course they spray 'weed killer' in the morning while people are on the course.  Is this a common thing?  Is it okay?

[vallygolf]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:36 PM, mallrat said:

Poa by itself is fine, it’s when you have the mixture that the bumpiness occurs. So in a way we are both right 🤷‍♂️ Poa does not play well with others. 

The mixture of grasses has different growth rates, the bumpiness or (ping pong) effect comes later in the day or when the greens have not been mowed.  Early mornings right after mowing they are not bumpy.  So the bumpy nature of the greens is not grass structure related, it is difference in rate of growth related. 

[mallrat]

13 hours ago, Nels55 said:

At my course they spray 'weed killer' in the morning while people are on the course.  Is this a common thing?  Is it okay?

I don’t see any issue with it but depending on what they spray it might be a little weird. Now is it a broad leaf like Crossroads or Game On or is it an everything killer like Round Up? One is a Caution (Crossroads) and one a Warning (Game On). There are 3 levels of pesticide/herbicides etc., caution, warning and Danger. Also these are for undiluted (mixed with water) chemicals. I don’t know the LD50 off the top of my head. 
 

Honestly, it should not be an issue and should be perfectly fine. That said, if your ball rolls through it and you pick it up I would wash my hands before eating, smoking, going to the bathroom, etc. 

[Nels55]

39 minutes ago, mallrat said:

I don’t see any issue with it but depending on what they spray it might be a little weird. Now is it a broad leaf like Crossroads or Game On or is it an everything killer like Round Up? One is a Caution (Crossroads) and one a Warning (Game On). There are 3 levels of pesticide/herbicides etc., caution, warning and Danger. Also these are for undiluted (mixed with water) chemicals. I don’t know the LD50 off the top of my head. 
 

Honestly, it should not be an issue and should be perfectly fine. That said, if your ball rolls through it and you pick it up I would wash my hands before eating, smoking, going to the bathroom, etc. 

Thanks for the reply!  They were spraying it on the fairways to control dandelions I think so probably a caution level.

[apluscgolf]

random question. what would be the best grass in the northeast to plant next to the foundation of your house. if you want something dense and lush to block water from entering the soil and instead roll down the grade away from foundation. 

[charli]

Have you had any experience with Bermuda in northeast type weather. Seems like some courses are starting to use it for their driving range. I’m assuming it’s a hybrid Bermuda to handle the cold winters

[caniac6]

20 hours ago, charli said:

Have you had any experience with Bermuda in northeast type weather. Seems like some courses are starting to use it for their driving range. I’m assuming it’s a hybrid Bermuda to handle the cold winters

Are you sure it’s not zoysia? It’s a lot mote cold tolerant than Bermuda.

[charli]

11 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Are you sure it’s not zoysia? It’s a lot mote cold tolerant than Bermuda.

It’s definitely a type of Bermuda. We’re in south jersey and it’s going on our range. I believe merion and liberty nation also use a Bermuda too

[smashdn]

Kinda high up for bermuda.  I am in southern KY and we will occasionally get winter kill on bermuda fairways if conditions are just so.  I have seen it occur down into northern middle TN as well.

 

If the soil gets saturated and freezes it will kill the roots and you end up with large patches of dead.  We saw a few years back when we had a heavy snow cover that melted somewhat during the day and then froze back at night a few nights in a row.  The low spots and places where the water drained were the spots that were impacted.

 

Bermuda fairways are still not fully greened up and filled in here going into the second week of May.  I can only guess that PA, NJ and NY are going to be 3-4 weeks behind us.

[ChipNRun]

Sand traps, or bunkers, are a top discussion item regarding sustainability of golf courses.

 

From a maintenance standpoint, which would be easier to handle for this hole?

• Left green with one large bunker
• Right green with three smaller bunkers

 

Or am I asking the wrong question?

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by ChipNRun
Reset diagrams.

[hammergolf]

Ok, so I was practicing the other day. I was taught long ago by an old pro that when you’re hitting balls, try to make a 1ft or 2ft square with your divots so it was easier to repair. So that’s what I’ve always done when practicing. However, the guy next to me was making a long line of his divots, (about 2 - 3ft long) then he would start a new line of divots about 6 inches away. As a greenskeeper, is there one way that better?

[mallrat]

3 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Sand traps, or bunkers, are a top discussion item regarding sustainability of golf courses.

 

From a maintenance standpoint, which would be easier to handle for this hole?

• Left green with one large bunker
• Right green with three smaller bunkers

 

Or am I asking the wrong question?

 

They are roughly the same. On the left you are looking at a sand pro/machine rake. On the right you are looking at 1 sand pro and 2 bunkers hand raked. Time wise and all things factored in you are looking at about the same. Assuming all bunkers are roughly the same in depth. 

[mallrat]

12 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Ok, so I was practicing the other day. I was taught long ago by an old pro that when you’re hitting balls, try to make a 1ft or 2ft square with your divots so it was easier to repair. So that’s what I’ve always done when practicing. However, the guy next to me was making a long line of his divots, (about 2 - 3ft long) then he would start a new line of divots about 6 inches away. As a greenskeeper, is there one way that better?

Honestly depends on the Super you talk to. Random scattered is what my boss prefer and I prefer lines. NEVER do big square grids. So lines will eventually heel in nicely and are easier to keep level/ looking clean. Part of divots healing (at least here) is the speed and lateral growth of surrounding plants. When you take out a big square (any size) you won’t get any lateral growth to help it heal and you are waiting 100% on your seed

 

Out grass range closed in Oct last year, we still have areas that were just gouged, not healed yet. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by mallrat

[hammergolf]

Just now, mallrat said:

Honestly depends on the Super you talk to. Random scattered is what my boss prefer and I prefer lines. NEVER do big square grids. So lines will eventually heel in nicely and are easier to keep level/ looking clean. Part of divots healing (at least here) is the speed and lateral growth of surrounding plants. When you take out a big square (any size) you won’t get any lateral growth to help it heal and you are waiting 100% on your seed

Thanks! So I’ve been doing it wrong for 30+ years…. Lines it will be from now on.

[crime]

I've been having a discussion with our management and superintendent for years now and I'd like to pose the question to others on here with better knowledge than me about cutting and rolling greens.

 

We are located just north of the US border in Canada and have bent grass greens and fairways. Playing time usually lasts from April until October depending on weather so we are likely similar to northern New York state.

 

My beef with the powers that be is that they refuse to cut the greens every day. Their normal schedule is to cut every other day and roll on the off days. I have been told that when we put the course in 25 years ago the grass strain that was used does not hold up well to cutting every day. I think this is a ridiculous argument. A course next door that was built 4 years later has some of the nicest greens I've ever putt on and they manage to cut and roll each morning. We also have a POA issue on the first 4 or 5 greens and on the days they don't cut, if it's warm out, it really comes out and makes the greens very bumpy. I'm not sure if they are using this strategy to save on budget or not. My proposition was to cut the greens each day and only roll a couple times a week. We used to cut the greens every day before the roller was purchased 8 years ago. 

 

Can anyone share whether their strategy makes sense or not? I appreciate any replies.

[Dancin]

I know many courses that roll some days instead of cutting. Soil conditions could be completely different between the two courses you refer to, even assuming they had the same varieties of grass and there may be other issues in the soil that have developed over 8 years, so I don't view their statement as outrageous but I'm not a greens keeper.

[smashdn]

On 5/5/2022 at 6:06 PM, ChipNRun said:

Sand traps, or bunkers, are a top discussion item regarding sustainability of golf courses.

 

From a maintenance standpoint, which would be easier to handle for this hole?

• Left green with one large bunker
• Right green with three smaller bunkers

 

Or am I asking the wrong question?

 

 

Would think larger bunker would be better from a cost/time/ease to maintain standpoint.  Can sand pro it and less edging and less edge to mow around.  Not sure what the arrows all indicate though.  Generally not desirable to have run off going into a bunker if it can be avoided.

[ChipNRun]

Direction of arrowhead shows downward slope of terrain.

 

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

Generally not desirable to have run off going into a bunker if it can be avoided.

 

Interesting. It seems some bunkers are designed with extra drainage below to help clear out water from green area. I've never helped build a green-and-bunker system, so I learned something. Avoiding runoff into bunker is good to know.

 

To avoid runoff into bunker: can bunker and green complex be built so that green area drainage pipes go under the bunkers?

 

Or, is it better to construct green drain pipes and bunker drainage channels as separate systems?

 

My home course has a very exotic bunkering scheme when it first opened. Failure to power-flush drainage pipes, however, led to bunker flooding and serious damage to many.

 

[mallrat]

17 hours ago, crime said:

I've been having a discussion with our management and superintendent for years now and I'd like to pose the question to others on here with better knowledge than me about cutting and rolling greens.

 

We are located just north of the US border in Canada and have bent grass greens and fairways. Playing time usually lasts from April until October depending on weather so we are likely similar to northern New York state.

 

My beef with the powers that be is that they refuse to cut the greens every day. Their normal schedule is to cut every other day and roll on the off days. I have been told that when we put the course in 25 years ago the grass strain that was used does not hold up well to cutting every day. I think this is a ridiculous argument. A course next door that was built 4 years later has some of the nicest greens I've ever putt on and they manage to cut and roll each morning. We also have a POA issue on the first 4 or 5 greens and on the days they don't cut, if it's warm out, it really comes out and makes the greens very bumpy. I'm not sure if they are using this strategy to save on budget or not. My proposition was to cut the greens each day and only roll a couple times a week. We used to cut the greens every day before the roller was purchased 8 years ago. 

 

Can anyone share whether their strategy makes sense or not? I appreciate any replies.

A course I worked at previously had Penn A-1 bent greens. It was a 36 hole facility and built roughly 20 years ago. We very rarely mowed on consecutive days often alternating a mow with a double roll. For special tournaments we would now and roll but that was maybe 20 times in a calendar year. One of the courses was fighting Poa much more than the other. 
 

Greens were generally very good to great, even fighting Poa. Private side greens averaged 11.5 - 12 on the stimp (actually never saw them below an 11 in growing season) and getting around 13.5 - 14 for a US Open qualifier. Private side was always a touch faster than the public side because the members demanded it. Now this course also had a very aggressive top dressing program. 
 

I guess part of what I’m asking or saying is what are the Super’s qualifications, budget, staff and equipment like? Also what are the member demands for the rest of the course? Because from the outside it sounds like you are saying you know more than him. As for the reasoning you listed, I’ll just say I haven’t heard of that but not saying it doesn’t exist. Now addressing the Poa, be very careful going down this route. There are many Supers who have killed the Poa on their greens and lost their job because of it. There is quite often much more there than you think. Hope this helps. 

[smashdn]

11 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Direction of arrowhead shows downward slope of terrain.

 

 

Interesting. It seems some bunkers are designed with extra drainage below to help clear out water from green area. I've never helped build a green-and-bunker system, so I learned something. Avoiding runoff into bunker is good to know.

 

To avoid runoff into bunker: can bunker and green complex be built so that green area drainage pipes go under the bunkers?

 

Or, is it better to construct green drain pipes and bunker drainage channels as separate systems?

 

My home course has a very exotic bunkering scheme when it first opened. Failure to power-flush drainage pipes, however, led to bunker flooding and serious damage to many.

 

 

If you take a look at greenside bunkers you will typically have a small trough between the putting surface and the lip of the bunker.  This helps to funnel surface runoff around the bunker and not down into it.  If the runoff overtops the lip it is going to wash your sand down the face of the bunker or wash other crud into the bunker and contaminate your sand.

 

Most bunkers have subsurface drainage under the liner.  You lay in drain pipe in trenches in a herringbone type pattern and tie into another larger drain line to get the water out and off.  You get problems when the liner gets messed up and the aggregate in the drain trenches fill with sand or soil.  Also, depending upon the underlying soil type, if you get contamination in the sand it can also form a cap that water doesn't want to drain through.  We have red clay here.  You get sand and clay mixing together you get poor drainage and when it does dry you get crust.  Also we have what are called chert rocks.  Small rocks get into the bunker if the liner gets messed up and the subsoil is raked into the bunker.

 

Courses and bunkers built in native sand don't tend to have the issue but you can still get water in them following a deluge or if the water table is high in an area.

[TexasTurf]

As far as rolling and not mowing: The fastest our bentgrass greens in Texas ever get is if we roll and not mow, dafter mowing the previous day. Mowing actually disturbs and lifts the leaf blades on the greens surface which slows everything down if they have already mowed recently. Even mowing and rolling in the same day is slower than mowing, then rolling the next day.

[TexasTurf]

Mow days, around 11' stimp, roll days after 12' +. Don't want faster than that with the slopes we have.

[TexasTurf]

On 5/24/2022 at 5:45 AM, crime said:

I've been having a discussion with our management and superintendent for years now and I'd like to pose the question to others on here with better knowledge than me about cutting and rolling greens.

 

We are located just north of the US border in Canada and have bent grass greens and fairways. Playing time usually lasts from April until October depending on weather so we are likely similar to northern New York state.

 

My beef with the powers that be is that they refuse to cut the greens every day. Their normal schedule is to cut every other day and roll on the off days. I have been told that when we put the course in 25 years ago the grass strain that was used does not hold up well to cutting every day. I think this is a ridiculous argument. A course next door that was built 4 years later has some of the nicest greens I've ever putt on and they manage to cut and roll each morning. We also have a POA issue on the first 4 or 5 greens and on the days they don't cut, if it's warm out, it really comes out and makes the greens very bumpy. I'm not sure if they are using this strategy to save on budget or not. My proposition was to cut the greens each day and only roll a couple times a week. We used to cut the greens every day before the roller was purchased 8 years ago. 

 

Can anyone share whether their strategy makes sense or not? I appreciate any replies.

Maybe join the course next door?

[mallrat]

4 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

As far as rolling and not mowing: The fastest our bentgrass greens in Texas ever get is if we roll and not mow, dafter mowing the previous day. Mowing actually disturbs and lifts the leaf blades on the greens surface which slows everything down if they have already mowed recently. Even mowing and rolling in the same day is slower than mowing, then rolling the next day.

 

Interesting you say that and something I forgot about. At that course one of the practice areas had 3 rather large putting greens, with the smallest being about 8,000 sq ft. One week we decided to see the effects on multiple days. Found 3 places on the green that all stimped within 2-3” of each other. For multiple days we tested out different methods in the same spots. Mow and roll would gain about 1, mowing solo got about .5, rolling solo got about the same interestingly a double mow and double roll got us close to 1.5 and a double roll got us between 1 & 1.5. 
 

Just thought it was interesting. 

[TexasTurf]

8 minutes ago, mallrat said:

 

Interesting you say that and something I forgot about. At that course one of the practice areas had 3 rather large putting greens, with the smallest being about 8,000 sq ft. One week we decided to see the effects on multiple days. Found 3 places on the green that all stimped within 2-3” of each other. For multiple days we tested out different methods in the same spots. Mow and roll would gain about 1, mowing solo got about .5, rolling solo got about the same interestingly a double mow and double roll got us close to 1.5 and a double roll got us between 1 & 1.5. 
 

Just thought it was interesting. 

That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I'm never against mowing, if you have the resources. Especially if you have poa, it is probably a must now that I have re-read the poster's comment. Sorry about that.

 

Funny thing is that we get bigger speed if we roll with heavy and light rollers with different diameter "wheels," than doubling up on just the heavy one.

 

Even this far south it is a multiple person full time job to pull/ plug out eradicate poa from the greens. Never ending battle. 

[golfortennis]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:49 AM, smashdn said:

 

If you take a look at greenside bunkers you will typically have a small trough between the putting surface and the lip of the bunker.  This helps to funnel surface runoff around the bunker and not down into it.  If the runoff overtops the lip it is going to wash your sand down the face of the bunker or wash other crud into the bunker and contaminate your sand.

 

Most bunkers have subsurface drainage under the liner.  You lay in drain pipe in trenches in a herringbone type pattern and tie into another larger drain line to get the water out and off.  You get problems when the liner gets messed up and the aggregate in the drain trenches fill with sand or soil.  Also, depending upon the underlying soil type, if you get contamination in the sand it can also form a cap that water doesn't want to drain through.  We have red clay here.  You get sand and clay mixing together you get poor drainage and when it does dry you get crust.  Also we have what are called chert rocks.  Small rocks get into the bunker if the liner gets messed up and the subsoil is raked into the bunker.

 

Courses and bunkers built in native sand don't tend to have the issue but you can still get water in them following a deluge or if the water table is high in an area.

 

Our course is on clay, so our drainage sucks.  We have a hole that has a pond circling about two thirds of the green(say from 11 o'clock to 7 o'clock).  There is a bunker between them all the way around.  The front corner of the bunker gets the most activity given it's the safe line.  Last season they tore up and relaid the section of the green and collar there because the build up from the sand caused the water to pool there.  Pretty sure the intent was to have to water run off to the 8 o'clock point of the green, but now you have me wondering how much water finds its way into the bunkers... 

[Justmuckit]

Anyone have any experience with the DryJect method of aerating greens?

 

Wanting to head to Florida in late August, but nearly every course we want to play will be aerating the week we're there. Southern Dunes south of Orlando is doing a DryJect procedure on the 16th - 10 days before we get there.

 

Enough time to heal?