Just Curious PGA No Lift, Clean, and Place?

[jkumpire]

Hi folks,

 

I was very interested in something about the PGA Championship playing conditions last weekend.

 

Jordan Speith said in an interview after the 4th round that a major problem he had was mud on his ball. On several other shots you could see players balls on the ground with dirt and mud all over them.

 

Did the PGA ever consider lift, clan, and place?

 

I understand that if you hit it in the rough you play what you have, and even invoking the rule would be controversial. But it sure seemed to me like there were a lot of holes where players were getting mud on their ball when hit onto the fairway. With all the rain the course got during the tournament IMO they should have considered it.

 

Please enlighten me about this opinion if I am off-base.

[sui generis]

Hi folks,

 

I was very interested in something about the PGA Championship playing conditions last weekend.

 

Jordan Speith said in an interview after the 4th round that a major problem he had was mud on his ball. On several other shots you could see players balls on the ground with dirt and mud all over them.

 

Did the PGA ever consider lift, clan, and place?

 

I understand that if you hit it in the rough you play what you have, and even invoking the rule would be controversial. But it sure seemed to me like there were a lot of holes where players were getting mud on their ball when hit onto the fairway. With all the rain the course got during the tournament IMO they should have considered it.

 

Please enlighten me about this opinion if I am off-base.

 

Either way, it's a level playing field. (Though, the TV reality show called the PGA Tour does like to LCP; they'll usually do it at the drop of the hat.)

[rogolf]

The players and the announcers whine a lot about a bit of mud on the ball but, imo, unless the mud is between the club and the ball, it has little to no effect - it doesn't stay on the ball at the speed the ball leaves the club. It's just another excuse, just like the imaginary spike marks they tap down after missing a shortish putt (because they pushed or pulled it).

And, you won't see LCP in a major - it's "play hard."

[Shilgy]

You must have different mud where you are than here in Phoenix. Had a decent sized chunk on a ball today and after a solid 6 iron landed on the green the chunk was still there. I will add the mud does affect flight. Will drift to the opposite side of mud. Mud on the left ball goes right etc.

[rogolf]

You must have different mud where you are than here in Phoenix. Had a decent sized chunk on a ball today and after a solid 6 iron landed on the green the chunk was still there. I will add the mud does affect flight. Will drift to the opposite side of mud. Mud on the left ball goes right etc.

 

Things that good players know and will compensate for as they can; not much different than wind (except for the whine!) "These guys are good."

 

Want perfect conditions? Play billiards.

[raynorfan1]

Given that the PGA Tour plays LCP through the green whenever it's a little wet, it doesn't surprise me that the players would complain about it not being in place...

[moonshine]

It was not,just in rough...several holes fw was soggy enough...either way I concur level playing field.

[SNIPERBBB]

Billiards isnt perfect either unless you play new or freshly surfaced tables with perfect rails...played pool for the first time in years on a table that you could actually put the cue ball in reverse.

 

Table wasnt level though :butcher:

[rogolf]

Given that the PGA Tour plays LCP through the green whenever it's a little wet, it doesn't surprise me that the players would complain about it not being in place...

 

Can you tell me how many times (and the last time) that the PGA Tour played LCP through the green? It's not a local Rule authorized by the ruling bodies.

[rogolf]

It's also interesting to note that none of the majors are run by the PGA Tour.

[ntanygd760]

Given that the PGA Tour plays LCP through the green whenever it's a little wet, it doesn't surprise me that the players would complain about it not being in place...

 

Can you tell me how many times (and the last time) that the PGA Tour played LCP through the green? It's not a local Rule authorized by the ruling bodies.

One of the tournaments in Dallas a few years back was last time I remember. The one where they turned a par 5 into par 3.

[Newby]

If relief is required for muddy balls they would be better using Lift, Clean & Replace (which is available Through the Green). There is no need for Preferred Lies.

[Stuart_G]

It's not a local Rule authorized by the ruling bodies.

 

Let's not get carried away. If it wasn't a rule authorized by the ruling bodies, it wouldn't be listed in appendix I of the rules.

 

It's just not recommended to be used unless the conditions are more severe or abnormal. Occasional rain in the amounts that occurred before and during the PGA was hardly enough to really be considered either abnormal or severe. If you get mud on the ball a few times a round, that's just part of the game.

 

And no, it doesn't matter how good they are, the behavior is too unpredictable for anyone to be able to compensate for mud on the ball. But some amount of randomness is just an inherent part of the game.

[Newby]

LCP TTG is not in the appendix

 

rogolf

Can you tell me how many times (and the last time) that the PGA Tour played LCP through the green? It's not a local Rule authorized by the ruling bodies.

 

However, the major tours have used PLs TTG recently. I raised the matter with the R&A and received a non committal answer (the gist of which I think I posted here a while ago).

[Stuart_G]

LCP TTG is not in the appendix

 

Sorry - yes, it's early and I missed the tangent reference to the rough. It's only TTG in closely-mown areas in the appendix.

 

I only remember one case it was unrestricted TTG on the PGA tour (last year or the year before).

[Sawgrass]

The LCP local rule should not be applied after a round starts. LRs should apply to all players. So if it rains during a round, there's trouble.

[Shilgy]

The LCP local rule should not be applied after a round starts. LRs should apply to all players. So if it rains during a round, there's trouble.

which is why the tours occasionally have LCP being used before the weather even hits.

[Shilgy]

You must have different mud where you are than here in Phoenix. Had a decent sized chunk on a ball today and after a solid 6 iron landed on the green the chunk was still there. I will add the mud does affect flight. Will drift to the opposite side of mud. Mud on the left ball goes right etc.

 

Things that good players know and will compensate for as they can; not much different than wind (except for the whine!) "These guys are good."

 

Want perfect conditions? Play billiards.

I do believe you misunderstood me. I was not complaining about the mud just stating it can and does stay on the ball in flight. I have always liked the USGA attitude in majors. Play it down-get relief from casual water if you must-do not use LCP-if it gets that bad suspend play.