Starting Over From Scratch: A Golf Instruction Experiment...

[PepsiDuck]

It's no surprise that I've been extremely frustrated with myself over the past few years with the direction my golf game has gone. I have inundated myself with way too much information and never allowed myself the chance to actually improve. So this evening, I talked with one of the PGA pros at my new club about how my mind was a cluster*ck of different swing thoughts, intents, and ideas, and how I was prone to constant tinkering with all those different ideas and combinations thereof. So I asked if he'd be willing to try something completely different with me that I had been wanting to do for a while now. He agreed, and we'll be starting tomorrow morning.

 

The experiment is for me to relearn the golf swing completely from scratch, in the eyes of the instructor...how to hold the club, how to stand, how to take it back, how to transition, etc. He has agreed that I won't hit any balls for him beforehand, so he won't have any idea how I currently swing the club. The intent is to do a data dump and literally start from scratch, as if I were a complete beginner who had never touched a golf club.

 

Having played golf for a little over 20 years now, this may be what I need, or it may be a complete waste of time and put me in a worse position. The pro admitted that he's never had anyone ask for this before, let alone someone who had once been a low single digit handicap. I'm excited to see how he approaches this. The worst that could happen is that it doesn't work and I can just go back to struggling with my bag of tricks.

 

For those who are even the slightest bit curious, I'll keep my updates here...thanks for reading!

[q-school]

Aren’t you going to see Monte in a few months?

[BKN1964]

I'm interested to see how this goes.

[Schnee]

No chance I'm playing Bethpage Black with a beginner :cheesy:

[DavePelz4]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

[PepsiDuck]

Aren’t you going to see Monte in a few months?

 

Yes that's the plan. But after hooking a ball into a traffic-jammed freeway on a par 3 today, I realized I can't play golf like this for the next 3 months...

[PepsiDuck]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

 

I'm honestly not sure. I have a stinking suspicion that he's going to show me all of these things and when I make my first swing, I'm just going to make the same sh*t swing I've been making all this time...

 

So the experiment may very well fail...but I'm going to try hard to clear my mind of everything and just go with what he says. I think he understands this really is an experiment that may or may not work. But he also can empathize when I say that I have so much clutter of information in my head.

[DavePelz4]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

 

I'm honestly not sure. I have a stinking suspicion that he's going to show me all of these things and when I make my first swing, I'm just going to make the same sh*t swing I've been making all this time...

 

So the experiment may very well fail...but I'm going to try hard to clear my mind of everything and just go with what he says. I think he understands this really is an experiment that may or may not work. But he also can empathize when I say that I have so much clutter of information in my head.

 

Incredible respect for you on this venture. I'm going with he says something very minor and potentially trivial that gets you on the path to where you want to be. Sending good thoughts your way...but don't keep them in your head, sounds like lots there already.

[ws6]

As I read the opening post, I was expecting to read you were going lefty.

[BottleCap]

Aren't you going to see Monte in a few months?

 

Yes that's the plan. But after hooking a ball into a traffic-jammed freeway on a par 3 today, I realized I can't play golf like this for the next 3 months...

 

How about taking a 3 month break from golf. Get on a good diet, start running, do yoga and be in great shape when you start again.

[PepsiDuck]

How about taking a 3 month break from golf. Get on a good diet, start running, do yoga and be in great shape when you start again.

 

Unfortunately, I am always in exceedingly great shape...

 

 

 

 

...not kidding, either...it's already part of my lifestyle...

 

 

 

But having been lucky to have year round golf for the past few years, I dread my first winter in six years...

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

It's no surprise that I've been extremely frustrated with myself over the past few years with the direction my golf game has gone. I have inundated myself with way too much information and never allowed myself the chance to actually improve. So this evening, I talked with one of the PGA pros at my new club about how my mind was a cluster*ck of different swing thoughts, intents, and ideas, and how I was prone to constant tinkering with all those different ideas and combinations thereof. So I asked if he'd be willing to try something completely different with me that I had been wanting to do for a while now. He agreed, and we'll be starting tomorrow morning.

 

The experiment is for me to relearn the golf swing completely from scratch, in the eyes of the instructor...how to hold the club, how to stand, how to take it back, how to transition, etc. He has agreed that I won't hit any balls for him beforehand, so he won't have any idea how I currently swing the club. The intent is to do a data dump and literally start from scratch, as if I were a complete beginner who had never touched a golf club.

 

Having played golf for a little over 20 years now, this may be what I need, or it may be a complete waste of time and put me in a worse position. The pro admitted that he's never had anyone ask for this before, let alone someone who had once been a low single digit handicap. I'm excited to see how he approaches this. The worst that could happen is that it doesn't work and I can just go back to struggling with my bag of tricks.

 

For those who are even the slightest bit curious, I'll keep my updates here...thanks for reading!

 

This is pretty cool. Just listen to the instructor and do what he thinks makes sense. The difference between you and a true beginner is that you have the skill to do the things he recommends pretty quickly.

[royourboat]

I for one, think it is far from stupid. I think there is a lot of love for this idea that a swing model is a bad idea because we're all unique snowflakes. Monte says regularly, you just need to get away from extremes. Sure, no-ones disagreeing, but sometimes by adding the model which demonstrates the middle ground of moves (which match up properly) you go from "this is bad, don't do it" to, "this is ideal, try and create it". When there is a model, you might visualise or determine what the new move feels like easier than knowing its between two arbitrary goalposts. Just an opinion, from one snowflake to another.

 

PD, if you were to write a letter to your 20yo self (or whenever you started paying for lessons and got serious), what would you say. I use this idea to reflect on big changes. When I read this OP, I think, maybe it's a good reminder that swing changes are hard, take time and trying to add more and more is like building the house without finishing the foundation.

 

I've personally come to terms with the reality of buying a 3 lesson package.. you don't get 3 new moves.

• Lesson 1, you get move #1.
  
• Lesson 2 you go in a) all happy coz it's working, b) unhappy coz it's temperamental and Pro keeps you on track to make sure you're still doing #1 without other wheels falling off.
  
• Lesson 3, when it falls apart you go back and get given move #1 again and hopefully it sticks this time.
  

The second and third lessons are very important, because they were a lesson in how to correct yourself. It doesn't feel productive, because you're not moving onto move #2.. but that's actually short sighted. Now if only I could complete my swing changes in 3 lessons like I just said.. that would be awesome..

[Krt22]

Having battled the same exact swing flaw 1.5yrs now, I understand where you are coming from. With that being said I im sure you know that changing your swing is very hard. My instructor had something stick with me my last lesson. He basically told me you can't really just tweak what you have if you want to make lasting changes, but you have to mentally approach it as a new swing. Even if it physically isnt dramatically different, your mental approach will help in making it a lasting change.

 

If you have been a low single digit and are still in great shape, there likely isnt anything physically holding you back, so if this approach helps fix the mental quirks it might be very fruitful.

[northgolf]

It's no surprise that I've been extremely frustrated with myself over the past few years with the direction my golf game has gone. I have inundated myself with way too much information and never allowed myself the chance to actually improve. So this evening, I talked with one of the PGA pros at my new club about how my mind was a cluster*ck of different swing thoughts, intents, and ideas, and how I was prone to constant tinkering with all those different ideas and combinations thereof. So I asked if he'd be willing to try something completely different with me that I had been wanting to do for a while now. He agreed, and we'll be starting tomorrow morning.

 

The experiment is for me to relearn the golf swing completely from scratch, in the eyes of the instructor...how to hold the club, how to stand, how to take it back, how to transition, etc. He has agreed that I won't hit any balls for him beforehand, so he won't have any idea how I currently swing the club. The intent is to do a data dump and literally start from scratch, as if I were a complete beginner who had never touched a golf club.

 

Having played golf for a little over 20 years now, this may be what I need, or it may be a complete waste of time and put me in a worse position. The pro admitted that he's never had anyone ask for this before, let alone someone who had once been a low single digit handicap. I'm excited to see how he approaches this. The worst that could happen is that it doesn't work and I can just go back to struggling with my bag of tricks.

 

For those who are even the slightest bit curious, I'll keep my updates here...thanks for reading!

 

Duck,

 

For you to start over from scratch, you would have to be scratch. Be honest.

 

The best thing you can do (inmsho) is develop awareness of how you are moving when you swing the club on the course. You have been to enough really excellent instructors who have told you what you need to do to improve, it is now up to you to be self aware enough to actually do what they have asked of you.

[Yff Theos]

You will not ever be able to start from the scratch. Memory is to heavy a ballast. What you can do is to change wrong habits. You need to start with the basic motion and achieve the stage of awareness of the acquired motion.

[MountainGoat]

This will not end well, but you'll never admit it.

[PepsiDuck]

I for one, think it is far from stupid. I think there is a lot of love for this idea that a swing model is a bad idea because we're all unique snowflakes. Monte says regularly, you just need to get away from extremes. Sure, no-ones disagreeing, but sometimes by adding the model which demonstrates the middle ground of moves (which match up properly) you go from "this is bad, don't do it" to, "this is ideal, try and create it". When there is a model, you might visualise or determine what the new move feels like easier than knowing its between two arbitrary goalposts. Just an opinion, from one snowflake to another.

 

PD, if you were to write a letter to your 20yo self (or whenever you started paying for lessons and got serious), what would you say. I use this idea to reflect on big changes. When I read this OP, I think, maybe it's a good reminder that swing changes are hard, take time and trying to add more and more is like building the house without finishing the foundation.

 

I've personally come to terms with the reality of buying a 3 lesson package.. you don't get 3 new moves.

• Lesson 1, you get move #1.
  
• Lesson 2 you go in a) all happy coz it's working, b) unhappy coz it's temperamental and Pro keeps you on track to make sure you're still doing #1 without other wheels falling off.
  
• Lesson 3, when it falls apart you go back and get given move #1 again and hopefully it sticks this time.
  

The second and third lessons are very important, because they were a lesson in how to correct yourself. It doesn't feel productive, because you're not moving onto move #2.. but that's actually short sighted. Now if only I could complete my swing changes in 3 lessons like I just said.. that would be awesome..

 

This is something I have struggled with philosophically for a while now...namely, can you make lasting swing improvement working on only one move? If there are three fundamentally flawed elements of your swing, mustn't you address all three from the very beginning? Or do you work only on move #1 while leaving flaws #2 and #3 intact? Also, is move #1 still the correct move if you didn't have flaws #2 and #3? Or if you only have flaw #2 but not #3? I would agree with the general idea that you can only really effectively work on one thing at a time, so how do you reconcile?

[Millbrook]

I'm nowhere near your level but have been seeing Dan Whittaker for a year now and have made great progress.

 

One of the things which I have brought to the process is to follow the following thought pattern after each lesson;

 

- what does Dan want me to do

- what am I currently doing

- what is the difference

 

I have found that when I have worked out the difference it gives me a different model or mental map. This is similar to Jim Waldrons swing map idea where he says that you won't change your swing until you change your swing map.

 

Also it is a great help in identifying when you revert to your old habit. You have a reference point to say 'AH I've gone back to what I've always done - need to go back to the new move'.

 

So in your shoes I would ask the coach to identify what you are currently doing and how it differs from the new instruction.

 

As I said I'm no where near your level of golf so don't mean to be presumptious. My comments are more about effective learning and come from a background I won't bore you with.

 

You may also want to check out your preferred learning style using the Kolb inventory and use this/share it with your coach.

 

I wish you every success and look forward to hearing how it goes.

[pearsonified]

I always read your threads with a mix of curiosity and frustration, probably because just like you, I am prone to overthinking and over-analyzing everything.

 

With that said, I am being absolutely sincere here:

 

Stop this nonsense and get an old tire.

 

Beat on that tire and learn to hit it with a square club face. Learning to do this will inform you how you need to swing and what you must do to deliver a square club face with every club in the bag.

[Millbrook]

I for one, think it is far from stupid. I think there is a lot of love for this idea that a swing model is a bad idea because we're all unique snowflakes. Monte says regularly, you just need to get away from extremes. Sure, no-ones disagreeing, but sometimes by adding the model which demonstrates the middle ground of moves (which match up properly) you go from "this is bad, don't do it" to, "this is ideal, try and create it". When there is a model, you might visualise or determine what the new move feels like easier than knowing its between two arbitrary goalposts. Just an opinion, from one snowflake to another.

 

PD, if you were to write a letter to your 20yo self (or whenever you started paying for lessons and got serious), what would you say. I use this idea to reflect on big changes. When I read this OP, I think, maybe it's a good reminder that swing changes are hard, take time and trying to add more and more is like building the house without finishing the foundation.

 

I've personally come to terms with the reality of buying a 3 lesson package.. you don't get 3 new moves.

• Lesson 1, you get move #1.
  
• Lesson 2 you go in a) all happy coz it's working, b) unhappy coz it's temperamental and Pro keeps you on track to make sure you're still doing #1 without other wheels falling off.
  
• Lesson 3, when it falls apart you go back and get given move #1 again and hopefully it sticks this time.
  

The second and third lessons are very important, because they were a lesson in how to correct yourself. It doesn't feel productive, because you're not moving onto move #2.. but that's actually short sighted. Now if only I could complete my swing changes in 3 lessons like I just said.. that would be awesome..

 

This is something I have struggled with philosophically for a while now...namely, can you make lasting swing improvement working on only one move? If there are three fundamentally flawed elements of your swing, mustn't you address all three from the very beginning? Or do you work only on move #1 while leaving flaws #2 and #3 intact? Also, is move #1 still the correct move if you didn't have flaws #2 and #3? Or if you only have flaw #2 but not #3? I would agree with the general idea that you can only really effectively work on one thing at a time, so how do you reconcile?

 

My experience of this is that I told Dan I was there for the long run and not for tweaks so I trusted him to progressively build my swing in the way he thought best. Along the way I raised certain things which he always answered and gave me the solution but found that often I could not do it because the foundations were not there.

 

I only realised this in hindsight. It was a question of flaw 3 could not be tackled even though I had the solution because the groundwork of tackling flaw 1 & 2 had not been done.

 

I had so many flaws that this may not apply to you so it may be person specific. Also flaw 1 may be contributing to flaw 3 so flaws can be interlinked.

[PepsiDuck]

As I said I'm no where near your level of golf so don't mean to be presumptious. My comments are more about effective learning and come from a background I won't bore you with.

 

You may also want to chack out your preferred learning style using the Kolb inventory and use this/share it with your coach.

 

I always read your threads with a mix of curiosity and frustration, probably because just like you, I am prone to overthinking and over-analyzing everything.

 

The funny thing is, when I first approached the pro yesterday, my first question was, "of everyone on staff, who is the most meticulous and detail-oriented instructor"? He kind of have me a quizzical look and said, probably no one...

 

I've learned over the years that for my learning style, which is similar to my preferred non-golf learning style, I need very very precise instruction where there is little room for variance. I tend to ask a LOT of questions when there's room for variance...

 

But for today's lesson, I'm just going to go with his approach, which he said was very simple...

[robbohank]

Pepsi - I think it’ll be an interesting experiment but as was mentioned why not do it left-handed (assuming you’re a righty)? Seems like it would speed up the process as you’re not dealing with all the swing “scar-tissue” that’s been built up over time.

 

Either way it’ll be a fun read.

[oikos1]

I for one, think it is far from stupid. I think there is a lot of love for this idea that a swing model is a bad idea because we're all unique snowflakes. Monte says regularly, you just need to get away from extremes. Sure, no-ones disagreeing, but sometimes by adding the model which demonstrates the middle ground of moves (which match up properly) you go from "this is bad, don't do it" to, "this is ideal, try and create it". When there is a model, you might visualise or determine what the new move feels like easier than knowing its between two arbitrary goalposts. Just an opinion, from one snowflake to another.

 

PD, if you were to write a letter to your 20yo self (or whenever you started paying for lessons and got serious), what would you say. I use this idea to reflect on big changes. When I read this OP, I think, maybe it's a good reminder that swing changes are hard, take time and trying to add more and more is like building the house without finishing the foundation.

 

I've personally come to terms with the reality of buying a 3 lesson package.. you don't get 3 new moves.

• Lesson 1, you get move #1.
  
• Lesson 2 you go in a) all happy coz it's working, b) unhappy coz it's temperamental and Pro keeps you on track to make sure you're still doing #1 without other wheels falling off.
  
• Lesson 3, when it falls apart you go back and get given move #1 again and hopefully it sticks this time.
  

The second and third lessons are very important, because they were a lesson in how to correct yourself. It doesn't feel productive, because you're not moving onto move #2.. but that's actually short sighted. Now if only I could complete my swing changes in 3 lessons like I just said.. that would be awesome..

 

This is something I have struggled with philosophically for a while now...namely, can you make lasting swing improvement working on only one move? If there are three fundamentally flawed elements of your swing, mustn't you address all three from the very beginning? Or do you work only on move #1 while leaving flaws #2 and #3 intact? Also, is move #1 still the correct move if you didn't have flaws #2 and #3? Or if you only have flaw #2 but not #3? I would agree with the general idea that you can only really effectively work on one thing at a time, so how do you reconcile?

 

It appears you haven't done the "data dump" yet. Really curious how this turns out but if you talk about it here during the process it'll never work.

[David C]

As I said I'm no where near your level of golf so don't mean to be presumptious. My comments are more about effective learning and come from a background I won't bore you with.

 

You may also want to chack out your preferred learning style using the Kolb inventory and use this/share it with your coach.

 

I always read your threads with a mix of curiosity and frustration, probably because just like you, I am prone to overthinking and over-analyzing everything.

 

The funny thing is, when I first approached the pro yesterday, my first question was, "of everyone on staff, who is the most meticulous and detail-oriented instructor"? He kind of have me a quizzical look and said, probably no one...

 

I've learned over the years that for my learning style, which is similar to my preferred non-golf learning style, I need very very precise instruction where there is little room for variance. I tend to ask a LOT of questions when there's room for variance...

 

But for today's lesson, I'm just going to go with his approach, which he said was very simple...

 

Well your last bit is exactly bang on and the first bit is way off IMHO. Part of understanding Kolb and also of understanding how to learn golf specifically, is *absolutely NOT* to say ‘this is my learning style, this is how information shall be received’ but to understand what is the best style to learn a motor skill, in this case the *golf-swing*, and is my learning style (or styles) compatible with how golf-swing is best learned? If not, what shall I *change* my style to?

 

And as follows, the discussion to have with the pro is therefore how can she reinforce you adopting a style that doesn’t come naturally. Not to attempt some bastardised hybrid approach that won’t work.

 

If your learning style or styles is/are not in the first instance compatible, it’s *you* that needs to bend to the optimum style, not the other way around. That’s the purpose behind what Kolb was suggesting. If you get that backwards it is going to be an enormous barrier to learning. As much as your age will be.

 

Mill brook, you seem to me - knowingly or otherwise - to get this by talking about a disconnection between occasions when you have and haven’t got something and reflecting on it. The reflection is what then enables you to try to adapt to active learning in future and makes when you err (eg between lessons, on occasion) more palatable. ie. satisfies your preferred style which for arguments sake is reflective, but acknowledges golf is only learned actively. There is no disquiet from when you take a new lesson ‘D’ and haven’t absorbed ‘A’, ‘B’ and ‘C’ yet, you can rationalise it as part of the longer process. And i’ll bet any disillusionment is very brief and you are progressing with optimism, because you can contextualise it.

 

The danger is polluting an activist, golf and brain-friendly learning approach with theory and reflection. You think you are just ‘doing’ (a good thing) when you are actually ‘thinking’ (a bad thing). And end up bouncing from one idea to the next. Recognition of what is letting off your reflector or theorist ‘escape-valve’ is a good thing (perhaps that is participation on a golf forum?); failing to recognise when you have crossed the line into trying to learn golf in a reflector or theorist manner is a big negative.

 

Or more simply put: stop thinking and *just do it*.

[Millbrook]

Don't want to derail the thread but I'll add to Daves point above because a key thing in Pepsi's quest is the issue of learning and you can't tell an abstract thinker to stop thinking and just do it. You have to add something to compliment the thinking and/or substitute the thinking when appropriate.

 

I've been told that my results on the Kolb questionnaire is unique because I came out with no preferred style - it was balanced. However my friends would say I'm an abstract thinker because that is where I start.

I prefer to use the learning cycle (Honey & Mumford) which for me if I start with the abstract thinking is;

 

Abstract Conceptualisation (Wants to understand theories/concepts) then

Active Experimentation (has a go at things and see if they work) then

Concrete Experience ( the doing and experiencing ie. working on the range) then

Reflective observation ( observes and reflects on the experience)

 

Ideally a coach could fit into all these stages of the process.

 

My point here is that regardless of your preferred learning style using the whole process is valuable. You can substitute the abstract conceptualisation if theory isn't your bag by simply ensuring you understand what the coach wants you to do. However you can't think your way into good golf if you don't try new things and practice.

 

Dave - your comment about the disconnection maybe true because I do a lot of reflection at the appropriate time and yes I'm progressing with optimism. However I think the point I made about identifying the difference between what I do and what the coach wants me to do was reflecting and asking the NLP question 'what's the difference that makes the difference'.

 

In practical terms it came about when it took me 850 reps to begin to feel comfortable with an earlier wrist c0ck and double that to engrain that. I realised I was not working hard enough between lessons to translate the lesson into feel. It was easy to understand but I had to do the experimentation and practice to move from conscious incompetence to unconscious competence. Understanding the concept was not enough.

 

Another example (at the risk of boring dear readers) was an overswing in the backswing. The concept is the arms stop when the shoulders stop turning. Easy to grasp yet we all know that when someone shortens their backswing it's usually still longer than they think.

 

So I experimented with 9 to 3 swings because I could see my lead arm at parallel (I'm more visual then kinesthetic/feeling). Once I practiced that and got the feel I could gradually increase the length of the back swing and begin to identify when I reverted back to type.

 

The overall point is a coach may be responsible for the teaching (both content and methodology) but the student is responsible for the learning and very few people are taught effective learning.

[Golfonthemind]

Why not just buy some cheap lefty clubs and really give it a full reboot?

[Santiago Golf]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

Well muscles dont have memory

[wmblake2000]

Pepsi: one suggestion.

 

Bring lots of patience. A radical swing-replacement procedure has a long recuperative period!

[gvogel]

It's no surprise that I've been extremely frustrated with myself over the past few years with the direction my golf game has gone. I have inundated myself with way too much information and never allowed myself the chance to actually improve. So this evening, I talked with one of the PGA pros at my new club about how my mind was a cluster*ck of different swing thoughts, intents, and ideas, and how I was prone to constant tinkering with all those different ideas and combinations thereof. So I asked if he'd be willing to try something completely different with me that I had been wanting to do for a while now. He agreed, and we'll be starting tomorrow morning.

 

The experiment is for me to relearn the golf swing completely from scratch, in the eyes of the instructor...how to hold the club, how to stand, how to take it back, how to transition, etc. He has agreed that I won't hit any balls for him beforehand, so he won't have any idea how I currently swing the club. The intent is to do a data dump and literally start from scratch, as if I were a complete beginner who had never touched a golf club.

 

Having played golf for a little over 20 years now, this may be what I need, or it may be a complete waste of time and put me in a worse position. The pro admitted that he's never had anyone ask for this before, let alone someone who had once been a low single digit handicap. I'm excited to see how he approaches this. The worst that could happen is that it doesn't work and I can just go back to struggling with my bag of tricks.

 

For those who are even the slightest bit curious, I'll keep my updates here...thanks for reading!

 

If you are going to give it three months, use the pro to make sure that your grip, stance and alignment are very good.

 

Then give it the 9 to 3 drill for 3 months until you have full confidence in that motion.

 

Are you disciplined enough to make that commitment?