Starting Over From Scratch: A Golf Instruction Experiment...

[pappaf2]

Good luck Pepsi. Have you ever read Fred Shoemakers book "Extraordinary Golf" or listened to any of his interviews? If not I think his approach of improving your awareness could really help your quest. It might even help your current swing but I think it would be helpful when trying to "start from scratch".

[BigBad]

Some people aren't cut out to play golf — mentally, physically or both. You've seen the people I'm talking about. It comes to a point where they should just find a different hobby.

 

- Sam Snead

[jbw749]

It's no surprise that I've been extremely frustrated with myself over the past few years with the direction my golf game has gone. I have inundated myself with way too much information and never allowed myself the chance to actually improve. So this evening, I talked with one of the PGA pros at my new club about how my mind was a cluster*ck of different swing thoughts, intents, and ideas, and how I was prone to constant tinkering with all those different ideas and combinations thereof. So I asked if he'd be willing to try something completely different with me that I had been wanting to do for a while now. He agreed, and we'll be starting tomorrow morning.

 

The experiment is for me to relearn the golf swing completely from scratch, in the eyes of the instructor...how to hold the club, how to stand, how to take it back, how to transition, etc. He has agreed that I won't hit any balls for him beforehand, so he won't have any idea how I currently swing the club. The intent is to do a data dump and literally start from scratch, as if I were a complete beginner who had never touched a golf club.

 

Having played golf for a little over 20 years now, this may be what I need, or it may be a complete waste of time and put me in a worse position. The pro admitted that he's never had anyone ask for this before, let alone someone who had once been a low single digit handicap. I'm excited to see how he approaches this. The worst that could happen is that it doesn't work and I can just go back to struggling with my bag of tricks.

 

For those who are even the slightest bit curious, I'll keep my updates here...thanks for reading!

 

Duck,

 

For you to start over from scratch, you would have to be scratch. Be honest.

 

The best thing you can do (inmsho) is develop awareness of how you are moving when you swing the club on the course. You have been to enough really excellent instructors who have told you what you need to do to improve, it is now up to you to be self aware enough to actually do what they have asked of you.

 

north, you nailed it about the self awareness. But it's not just up to him to wander around on his own personal journey figuring it out.

 

Pepsi, where givin any instructions on how to use self awareness to learn? Like specific instructions on how to deeply ingrain a new move into the subconscious so the eventual end result will be a swing you don't have to think about? If so can you share a little what they were?

 

 

 

 

[PepsiDuck]

Well, the lesson today did not go as I originally envisioned, but I honestly think that was to be expected. For everyone who suggested starting over lefty, that probably would be the only way to legitimately start over. There's just no way to teach from square one without wasting a lot of time. He joked that the best golfers are either really smart or really dumb. I tried my best to be really dumb for this lesson, and it took a lot of effort not to ask questions or clarify when I needed more detail. I just went with what he gave me.

 

Right off the bat, we were in the "wrong" direction as he asked me to show him my current grip and address position. He liked both and we moved on. Then he asked me to show him my takeaway, which he immediately sought to correct. He placed me in the position he wanted to see (i.e., "toe up" at club parallel to ground), and then guided me to the top of the swing. From there, he just told me to hit it. From this point, it became no different than a lesson I've had with any other instructor where he watched me hit the ball and then offered feedback on each individual shot. By the end of the lesson, he gave me two main takeaways: (1) swing "toe up" to "toe up" and (2) feel the club "set" at the top.

 

For a 30 minute lesson, I knew there wasn't a whole lot we could cover. I'm a bit disappointed that the experiment kind of went to sh*t and turned into an ordinary lesson, but I can't be surprised. I went out on the course for nine holes afterwards, and my consistency actually got worse. I managed to hook a tee shot on the last par 3 into the clubhouse parking lot with a 6 iron. Luckily I hit pavement on the fly and not a car. Not sure if I got any cars on the bounce. The cart attendant was kind enough to drive out and bring my ball back to me.

 

All in all, I'm having a VERY difficult time with the "just hit it" mentality. The pro seems like a good dude and we got along pretty well, but I don't know if his style is right for me. And found myself thinking "ok, now what?" a lot, or "ok, so why did my ball do that?" during the lesson and even during my nine holes afterward.

 

So for everyone who said this was stupid, you win! :rofl:

[DavePelz4]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

Well muscles dont have memory

 

Are you saying every time you take a drink of water you cognitively think about your hand grasping the glass, your arm lifting the glass to your mouth, etc. etc.?

[PepsiDuck]

Pepsi, where givin any instructions on how to use self awareness to learn? Like specific instructions on how to deeply ingrain a new move into the subconscious so the eventual end result will be a swing you don't have to think about? If so can you share a little what they were?

 

My last instructor was a big advocate of using video to develop feel and awareness. Capture a swing on video; remember how it felt; watch the video; and match the feeling to what you see. Do this many times over many swings to develop awareness. To be honest, I was too lazy to do this. I also didn't have a very convenient setup to take video on the range, which contributed to the laziness.

 

Instead, I've always relied on ball flight for awareness...the move was either done correctly, if the ball flight was good, or done incorrectly, if the ball flight was bad. Just keep hitting balls, remembering the feeling for the good shots and trying to replicate that feeling. I think this is a really poor way to do it.

[MonteScheinblum]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

Well muscles dont have memory

 

Are you saying every time you take a drink of water you cognitively think about your hand grasping the glass, your arm lifting the glass to your mouth, etc. etc.?

 

It’s a neural/motor pathway in the brain. An important distinction as to why shotgunning balls doesn’t work. Muscles don’t store repetitive motion and shot gunning balls doesn’t give the brain time to collect all the necessary data to build new pathway properly.

 

That’s also why hitting half shots builds better too. Helps build awareness as you can feel yourself moving at a slower pace better.

[Brock Landers]

Well, I like this idea. I've never had instruction but I thought to myself a long time ago if I did the first thing I would say is act like you're giving instructions to someone who never held a golf club.

[drewtaylor21]

Unfortunately, I am always in exceedingly great shape...

 

I thought you were just dehydrated??

 

(jk, just in for the entertainment!)

[pappaf2]

Pepsi, where givin any instructions on how to use self awareness to learn? Like specific instructions on how to deeply ingrain a new move into the subconscious so the eventual end result will be a swing you don't have to think about? If so can you share a little what they were?

 

My last instructor was a big advocate of using video to develop feel and awareness. Capture a swing on video; remember how it felt; watch the video; and match the feeling to what you see. Do this many times over many swings to develop awareness. To be honest, I was too lazy to do this. I also didn't have a very convenient setup to take video on the range, which contributed to the laziness.

 

Instead, I've always relied on ball flight for awareness...the move was either done correctly, if the ball flight was good, or done incorrectly, if the ball flight was bad. Just keep hitting balls, remembering the feeling for the good shots and trying to replicate that feeling. I think this is a really poor way to do it.

 

What about just focusing on your awareness without the video portion? Work on being aware of what the club is doing on some slow partial swings without worrying too much about the outcome or ball flight.

[PepsiDuck]

Unfortunately, I am always in exceedingly great shape...

 

I thought you were just dehydrated??

 

(jk, just in for the entertainment!)

 

Well that goes without saying: staying in great shape = dehydration + tiny shirts.

[PepsiDuck]

Good luck Pepsi. Have you ever read Fred Shoemakers book "Extraordinary Golf" or listened to any of his interviews? If not I think his approach of improving your awareness could really help your quest. It might even help your current swing but I think it would be helpful when trying to "start from scratch".

 

Yes, I have that book. I have so many mental golf books though that I've forgotten the specifics of that particular one.

 

What about just focusing on your awareness without the video portion? Work on being aware of what the club is doing on some slow partial swings without worrying too much about the outcome or ball flight.

 

I probably could use a little bit of that...I rely a lot on external feedback because I know my awareness is so bad that it really cannot be a reliable indicator of whether I'm doing something correctly.

[Jim Waldron]

P, you need to figure out whether those "off the planet" shots that happen on the golf course are happening because of ingrained poor mechanics or because of improper or no mental focus, ie a flinch of some sort. In my coaching experience, for students who are decent enough mechanics-wise to break 85 on a regular basis, and who hit it pretty good on the range, the cause for those wild shots on the course are mental, not mechanical.

 

You need coaching on how to actually develop strong "Meta-Awareness" in Feel Channel so that you can feel your body and form a clear distinction between a flinch-free swing and one with a flinch.

 

Ball flight is poor feedback on long game shots especially since there are many variables that can affect the ball flight and unless you really know your swing inside and out, pretty tough to self-diagnose accurately.

 

Awareness is THE most important fundamental in golf, in my opinion, because without it, you are wasting your time trying to get your body to learn a new move or to un-learn a bad move.

[PepsiDuck]

Are you still in Monterey? I'm trying to picture the course. 17 on Blackhorse would be a shocking swing to reach the car park ;-)

 

No, I just recently moved back to the east coast...in Virginia now...I have to update that.

 

But I have successfully reached the parking lot from the tee of #1 Black Horse.

[PepsiDuck]

P, you need to figure out whether those "off the planet" shots that happen on the golf course are happening because of ingrained poor mechanics or because of improper or no mental focus, ie a flinch of some sort. In my coaching experience, for students who are decent enough mechanics-wise to break 85 on a regular basis, and who hit it pretty good on the range, the cause for those wild shots on the course are mental, not mechanical.

 

You need coaching on how to actually develop strong "Meta-Awareness" in Feel Channel so that you can feel your body and form a clear distinction between a flinch-free swing and one with a flinch.

 

Ball flight is poor feedback on long game shots especially since there are many variables that can affect the ball flight and unless you really know your swing inside and out, pretty tough to self-diagnose accurately.

 

Awareness is THE most important fundamental in golf, in my opinion, because without it, you are wasting your time trying to get your body to learn a new move or to un-learn a bad move.

 

I think the bad on course shots are a result of both the mental and the mechanical. There is no doubt that I have a mental "flinch" off the tee, especially when risk of property damage is in play. But I'm also sure there is a mechanical issue(s) that makes it more likely that a bad shot will occur if even the slightest thing is off.

 

And I agree that ball flight is not the best feedback mechanism, as there are some many factors and mechanical components that go into a particular swing. I think that may be why my "Squirrel syndrome" is so bad...when my ball flight gets erratic, I go chasing variations of three or four swing components to try to fix ball flight.

[Golfbeat]

Your mechanics can not be that bad if you were a low single digit and went to see Monte a few times. It really must be mental, some fear to hit a bad shot and not enough focus on actually getting a square club face on the ball.

[dasams]

Your mechanics can not be that bad if you were a low single digit

 

^ This. I'd love to be any single digit. If I were and wanted to improve, I'd work on my weak areas, relative as that is. If you're hooking par 3 tee shots into the parking lot, that should be an easy fix. GL on your efforts, Dave

[PepsiDuck]

Your mechanics can not be that bad if you were a low single digit and went to see Monte a few times. It really must be mental, some fear to hit a bad shot and not enough focus on actually getting a square club face on the ball.

 

My mechanics are such that I can hit very good shots, but they are also such that I can hit very bad shots. I can hook or block a drive 100 yards sideways into an adjacent hole and then put a towering 5 iron to 10 feet from 200 yards out on the very next shot. I think it's this disparity that is most frustrating.

[royourboat]

Have you read The Practise Manual? Have you practised hitting balls with various types of thought? If you haven't, you really need to. I can give you the short version, but I recommend wrapping your head around the fact that internal thoughts affect shot outcomes and consistency. Type-A's don't like to be told to "not think" etc, but what I'm suggesting is a compromise. Understand what different thoughts do, experiment and prove it for yourself, then you can apply it. Hint, not thinking isn't really not thinking!

[q-school]

Your mechanics can not be that bad if you were a low single digit and went to see Monte a few times. It really must be mental, some fear to hit a bad shot and not enough focus on actually getting a square club face on the ball.

 

My mechanics are such that I can hit very good shots, but they are also such that I can hit very bad shots. I can hook or block a drive 100 yards sideways into an adjacent hole and then put a towering 5 iron to 10 feet from 200 yards out on the very next shot. I think it's this disparity that is most frustrating.

It’s like we are twins except those shots keep me from being a single handicap

[PepsiDuck]

It’s like we are twins except those shots keep me from being a single handicap

 

And courses that don't have holes running back and forth stacked up on one another allow me to shoot in the 100s...

[PepsiDuck]

Have you read The Practise Manual? Have you practised hitting balls with various types of thought? If you haven't, you really need to. I can give you the short version, but I recommend wrapping your head around the fact that internal thoughts affect shot outcomes and consistency. Type-A's don't like to be told to "not think" etc, but what I'm suggesting is a compromise. Understand what different thoughts do, experiment and prove it for yourself, then you can apply it. Hint, not thinking isn't really not thinking!

 

Yes, I have a print copy of that book and have read it several times. Unfortunately, for the past few years, I have practiced almost exclusively with internal focus using the ball flight as the feedback mechanism to adjust my internal focus on the next swing. If the ball does not fly the way I expect it to, then I presume that I have done something mechanically wrong. That's when I go into my bag of tricks and internally focus on a particular body part, movement, or intent and hope the next ball flies better.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Schnee]

Have you read The Practise Manual? Have you practised hitting balls with various types of thought? If you haven't, you really need to. I can give you the short version, but I recommend wrapping your head around the fact that internal thoughts affect shot outcomes and consistency. Type-A's don't like to be told to "not think" etc, but what I'm suggesting is a compromise. Understand what different thoughts do, experiment and prove it for yourself, then you can apply it. Hint, not thinking isn't really not thinking!

 

Yes, I have a print copy of that book and have read it several times. Unfortunately, for the past few years, I have practiced almost exclusively with internal focus using the ball flight as the feedback mechanism to adjust my internal focus on the next swing. If the ball does not fly the way I expect it to, then I presume that I have done something mechanically wrong. That's when I go into my bag of tricks and internally focus on a particular body part, movement, or intent and hope the next ball flies better.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Wow. That's a recipe for a massive disaster. Your expectations are way too high swing to swing. You're allowed to mishit shots you know... If the ball flew the way we expected it to every time, we'd all be on tour.

 

You can make a good swing and just time it poorly... a mishit shot. That doesn't mean you should adjust after every swing.

 

You need to use the same intent or a slight variation on it for long periods of time and allow your body to adjust to it. You can't abandon a feel that you've worked with your instructor on and you've seen work on the practice tee, all because you have a bad round, or a bad week, etc.

 

How can you expect to improve if you don't dedicate yourself to making a swing change?

 

[PepsiDuck]

There is no one way to grip it or one way to address it. You have too much ability to start over. Besides, if you were to start over, you’d be a hack for awhile. Why not just get some good instruction?

 

First, I will admit that I'm probably a terrible student in the eyes of most instructors. I'm inpatient and I ask too many questions about things that have nothing to do with what we're working on. If I'm working on transition, I'll ask where my club should be at point X on my backswing.

 

Second, I probably have an unrealistic expectation from what I'd like from golf instruction. Here's a good example to illustrate. When I was still in Monterey, I took the plunge and got an hour lesson with the Robotrainer at Pebble Beach. I thought, "this is perfect...nothing could provide more precision and detail feedback than a robot that would literally guide my club throughout the whole swing!"

 

I was still not satisfied. The whole time while swinging along with robot, the only thing I could think of was, "this thing is useless...wtf is my body supposed to do during all of this?" Perhaps if there was a robot with a body suit that I'd climb into and move my body the way I was supposed to move, I might be happy...

 

That might give you a better idea of the mental clusterf*ck to which I subject myself.

[PepsiDuck]

Wow. That's a recipe for a massive disaster. Your expectations are way too high swing to swing. You're allowed to mishit shots you know... If the ball flew the way we expected it to every time, we'd all be on tour.

 

You can make a good swing and just time it poorly... a mishit shot. That doesn't mean you should adjust after every swing.

 

You need to use the same intent or a slight variation on it for long periods of time and allow your body to adjust to it. You can't abandon a feel that you've worked with your instructor on and you've seen work on the practice tee, all because you have a bad round, or a bad week, etc.

 

How can you expect to improve if you don't dedicate yourself to making a swing change?

 

I absolutely agree that it is a terrible way to do business. I am not necessarily trying to defend or justify my thought process, but when we are talking mishit, I'm not talking a 10 yard wipe or overdraw that lands in a greenside bunker. I'll take that all day with a smile on my face. I'm talking a 30-40 yard pull hook with a 9 iron or an 80-100 yard block with a 3 wood off the tee.

 

But yes, it sucks.

[copperjeff]

There is no one way to grip it or one way to address it. You have too much ability to start over. Besides, if you were to start over, you’d be a hack for awhile. Why not just get some good instruction?

 

First, I will admit that I'm probably a terrible student in the eyes of most instructors. I'm inpatient and I ask too many questions about things that have nothing to do with what we're working on. If I'm working on transition, I'll ask where my club should be at point X on my backswing.

 

Second, I probably have an unrealistic expectation from what I'd like from golf instruction. Here's a good example to illustrate. When I was still in Monterey, I took the plunge and got an hour lesson with the Robotrainer at Pebble Beach. I thought, "this is perfect...nothing could provide more precision and detail feedback than a robot that would literally guide my club throughout the whole swing!"

 

I was still not satisfied. The whole time while swinging along with robot, the only thing I could think of was, "this thing is useless...wtf is my body supposed to do during all of this?" Perhaps if there was a robot with a body suit that I'd climb into and move my body the way I was supposed to move, I might be happy...

 

That might give you a better idea of the mental clusterf*ck to which I subject myself.

 

Pepsiduck,

 

I've read and followed just about everything you have posted in this subforum. Your frustration shows through, and I am impressed with your ability to stick with playing golf through all of this.

 

Having said that, I'd like to share some thoughts.

 

First, being impatient doesn't make you a bad student, nor does having questions on what you are being taught.

 

A bad student is one that has questions that don't get asked. A bad student is also one that feigns understanding for one reason or another.

 

You say you have an unrealistic expectation of a golf lesson, but have you ever discussed with your instructor/coach what your expectations are?

 

A teacher is limited to the feedback from his/her students. If you tell me you understand a concept I have to believe you, I have no other choice. However, if you don't understand the concept, it is my responsibility as the teacher to explain, and/or take a different tact in order to clarify the point.

 

My biggest failings as a teacher and student come from not asking enough questions, and not clarifying.

 

Another point, in any of your golf lessons has either you or the coach discussed how to make the changes that you worked on stick? If you have or haven't in the past, its a must for the future.

 

Everyone learns and processes differently, but the teacher and student MUST work together intimately in order to work properly.

[Sean2]

I went through something a tad bit similar. First, I have played the same equipment since last December, and have no plans to change anything. Very unusual for me, as I used to buy and sell with the best of them.

 

Second, I was constantly changing my swing, and as a result never developed a swing. I now have something that works for me, and while very awkward at the beginning, I am starting to feel more comfortable with it. However, it has required a lot of patience. Now it’s not a matter of changing anything as it is simply refining what I have. Being consistently inconsistent was wearing me down, hence the change.

 

As a result I have seen a remarkable improvement in my game.

 

I wish you the best of luck!

[BKN1964]

Well, the lesson today did not go as I originally envisioned, but I honestly think that was to be expected. For everyone who suggested starting over lefty, that probably would be the only way to legitimately start over. There's just no way to teach from square one without wasting a lot of time. He joked that the best golfers are either really smart or really dumb. I tried my best to be really dumb for this lesson, and it took a lot of effort not to ask questions or clarify when I needed more detail. I just went with what he gave me.

 

Right off the bat, we were in the "wrong" direction as he asked me to show him my current grip and address position. He liked both and we moved on. Then he asked me to show him my takeaway, which he immediately sought to correct. He placed me in the position he wanted to see (i.e., "toe up" at club parallel to ground), and then guided me to the top of the swing. From there, he just told me to hit it. From this point, it became no different than a lesson I've had with any other instructor where he watched me hit the ball and then offered feedback on each individual shot. By the end of the lesson, he gave me two main takeaways: (1) swing "toe up" to "toe up" and (2) feel the club "set" at the top.

 

For a 30 minute lesson, I knew there wasn't a whole lot we could cover. I'm a bit disappointed that the experiment kind of went to sh*t and turned into an ordinary lesson, but I can't be surprised. I went out on the course for nine holes afterwards, and my consistency actually got worse. I managed to hook a tee shot on the last par 3 into the clubhouse parking lot with a 6 iron. Luckily I hit pavement on the fly and not a car. Not sure if I got any cars on the bounce. The cart attendant was kind enough to drive out and bring my ball back to me.

 

All in all, I'm having a VERY difficult time with the "just hit it" mentality. The pro seems like a good dude and we got along pretty well, but I don't know if his style is right for me. And found myself thinking "ok, now what?" a lot, or "ok, so why did my ball do that?" during the lesson and even during my nine holes afterward.

 

So for everyone who said this was stupid, you win! :rofl:

 

Based on my personal experience, I'm not surprised by this. I've tried a similar experiment with a few different instructors. I tell them "I feel like I don't really know how to hit a golf ball. I want you to show me the swing like you would a beginner". They immediately go into standard lesson mode (Hit some shots while I observe, then I'll give you some corrections). Maybe that's the way they teach a beginner, but I don't see how that can be effective.

 

I've searched for good videos, articles, etc. that really explain how to swing a golf club. The best I've found are from Mike Malaska and Dan Whittaker, but they're both very different and still seem to be lacking what I'm looking for.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

PD how do you think 20 years of muscle memory will impact this?

Well muscles dont have memory

 

Are you saying every time you take a drink of water you cognitively think about your hand grasping the glass, your arm lifting the glass to your mouth, etc. etc.?

 

It’s a neural/motor pathway in the brain. An important distinction as to why shotgunning balls doesn’t work. Muscles don’t store repetitive motion and shot gunning balls doesn’t give the brain time to collect all the necessary data to build new pathway properly.

 

That’s also why hitting half shots builds better too. Helps build awareness as you can feel yourself moving at a slower pace better.

Can your brain learn new pathways to replace or override old ones?

[oikos1]

So wait. One thirty minute lesson and that's it?