Late to no release, softer shafts?

[pinestreetgolf]

Pine, I'm going to have to play with this stuff at the range. Hitting ping-pong balls off the bonus room carpet can only tell me so much (especially with Mrs. Sprinkle trying to sleep in the room below).

 

Good luck! The main thing is covering it like Boo. When your sternum (axis) is left like that you cant release - if you did you'd either fat it by a foot or hit a ground ball off the toe. To release into a golf ball you have to be "on top of it" - chin-sternum-belly button line facing target line and forming a line that points just in front. Then you can hammer the thing.

 

Make sure you do it slow the first 10 or so swing until you hear that crisp contact. Then speed it up!

[Petunia Sprinkle]

Pine, I found this late last night - http://www.dstgolf.c...f-golf-dst-golf

It seems to generally agree with what you've been saying. There are a few differences. The article suggests that it is the lead shoulder that is the axis of the swing. If the left arm, club, left hip and leg are to form a straight line at impact, as you suggest, that would suggest the article is correct about where the axis is. If I've been reading you correctly, you argue for considering the sternum the axis, do I have that right? I have seen Shawn Clement discussing the axes of right arm alone swings vs. left arm alone swings. In each, the axis is the shoulder of the single arm swinging (which makes perfect sense). Put both arms together and the axis ends up somewhere in the middle, which makes sense, and which supports your assertion the axis of the swing is the sternum (if I have that right).

 

I looked a little bit more closely at Weekley's impact position. It appears he's in the position argued by the article above as optimal...

 

 

That's different from the 'everything in a straight line' model Adam Scott seems to follow in the pic you posted earlier. Oddly some of the pics of Stenson's swing seem to follow the Adam Scott model rather than the DST model, odd considering Stenson uses a DST training club.

 

I think, essentially, you're making the same points, despite any differences.

[jslane57]

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pine is right on with his assessments. I would toss this out there: that none of the shoulder/axis/hands stuff even matters if the lower body is not leading the way. The stronger one's grip is, the more one's swing is dependent on lower body power and momentum. Since the first part of the puzzle is not quite there, the rest simply can't be there. The answer? Start more open, or find a way to get the weight forward while turning. Or go the other way and weaken the grip as to let the arms swing around a body that is not supportive of a strong grip. One way is not necessarily better than the other, but having one's grip match their swing is a key to consistency...

[pinestreetgolf]

Pine, I found this late last night - http://www.dstgolf.c...f-golf-dst-golf

It seems to generally agree with what you've been saying. There are a few differences. The article suggests that it is the lead shoulder that is the axis of the swing. If the left arm, club, left hip and leg are to form a straight line at impact, as you suggest, that would suggest the article is correct about where the axis is. If I've been reading you correctly, you argue for considering the sternum the axis, do I have that right? I have seen Shawn Clement discussing the axes of right arm alone swings vs. left arm alone swings. In each, the axis is the shoulder of the single arm swinging (which makes perfect sense). Put both arms together and the axis ends up somewhere in the middle, which makes sense, and which supports your assertion the axis of the swing is the sternum (if I have that right).

 

I looked a little bit more closely at Weekley's impact position. It appears he's in the position argued by the article above as optimal...

 

 

That's different from the 'everything in a straight line' model Adam Scott seems to follow in the pic you posted earlier. Oddly some of the pics of Stenson's swing seem to follow the Adam Scott model rather than the DST model, odd considering Stenson uses a DST training club.

 

I think, essentially, you're making the same points, despite any differences.

 

Its using "axis" to refer to two different things, but in the end its the same.

 

They are using "axis" to mean the clubhead - where do you want the clubhead at impact? If you think of the clubhead at impact as the bottom of the axis, the left shoulder is correct - it is further behind the line made by your chin, sternum and belly button.

 

If you think of "axis" as the bottom of the swing then the left shoulder is not correct. The bottom of the swing should be in front of the ball, not at it. So if you think of the swing without a clubhead and just think of where you want the bottom to be, it will *always* bottom out at the point your chin-sternum-belly button point to, which is just in front of the ball.

 

So its just two ways to think about the same thing. Its left shoulder if you think about where you want the clubhead at impact. Its the chin-chest-BB line if you think about where you want the low point of your swing to be. If you draw a line through the chin, sternum and belly buttom of the non-weekley impact picture, it is a few inches in front of the ball - where you want the lowest point.

 

I don't like thinking about where i want my clubhead when it hits the ball, because i swing faster if I ignore the ball and concentrate on drilling a spot in front of it with my chin-chest-belly button axis. But both work, and they both put you in the same position. Its just a different way to think about "axis".

 

The key is that the right hip has started to turn out BUT the chest is pointed right at the ball. However you get there that works best for you works best for you, but that is how you compress a golf ball. If your lower body gets forward but your upper body does not (see your pictures with the knee outracing the hip and L shoulder) you can't help BUT throw your chest up and out. If you didn't, you'd whiff. This leads to you swiping across the ball, not drilling it down the target line. When that sternum comes up and out before impact some of your energy is directed left and not down the target line.

 

everything goes forward so the left side is a soft line (shoulder-hip-knee) together (Petunia's lower body is six inches in front of his upper body)

the lower body turns harder and sooner than the upper body

 

Another good swing thought for this is to feel like you hit the ball with your right hip pocket while your chest stays facing the target line.

 

EDIT

The way you *really* can hit an iron hard is to get your right pocket to meet your clubhead at the ball. but the upper body goes forward and sits. it never rotates left until after the ball is gone. Its hard to do that thought (beat your shaft to the ball with your right side, so at impact your right hip is actually ahead of the ball) until you've got the upper and lower body moving forward as a unit. if your upper body and lower body get disconnected such that your knee sticks way out and your hip is way back, you need incredible timing to hit a ball well.

 

it sucks because it *feels* like that upper body rotation generates speed. it doesn't. its a trick. the lower body rotating generates speed. the upper body controls low point. Get that upper body forward to put the impact point in front of the ball and then fire that right hip like a MF'er through it while keeping the chest steady and pointed "on top" of the ball.

 

SECOND EDIT

Re-read your post. The sternum is part of the axis, but not the only part. Its the line formed by the chin, sternum and belly button. Consider a swing where your upper body gets forward and your lower body doesn't. You hit it fat. You hit it fat because the line flips - with belly button behind sternum, the line points behind the ball. You want a diagonal line from chin-sternum-belly button that points about two inches in front of the ball at impact. That insures ball first contact in the center of the clubface. The lower body rotating open provides the punch. Hence, you want slightly open hips with a stable upper body at impact where both upper and lower have moved forward together.

 

THIRD EDIT

Note in the "ideal" impact position picture, his left side is a line (shoulder-hip-knee). Nothing has outraced anyhting else. Now look at yours. That is why you can't release. Your upper body is being left behind. If you've ever heard "the dreaded reverse C" that's what it means - when your lower body outruns your upper AND your sternum bails out, you create a reverse C in your body and your dead. That shoulder has to get forward! Its an awkward move, but the shoulders turn AND slide forward, they don't just turn.

[pinestreetgolf]

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pine is right on with his assessments. I would toss this out there: that none of the shoulder/axis/hands stuff even matters if the lower body is not leading the way. The stronger one's grip is, the more one's swing is dependent on lower body power and momentum. Since the first part of the puzzle is not quite there, the rest simply can't be there. The answer? Start more open, or find a way to get the weight forward while turning. Or go the other way and weaken the grip as to let the arms swing around a body that is not supportive of a strong grip. One way is not necessarily better than the other, but having one's grip match their swing is a key to consistency...

 

Yeah, the weight shift is solid. That's why I said he isn't far away. He is also squaring the clubface pretty well (the back of the right hand isn't pointed to the sky). His sternum pulling out and his shoulders not going forward is putting his swing arc behind the ball, which means if he "released" he'd dig a nice garden. His brain knows this and won't let it happen so he lunges at it and sideswipes it. When his timing is perfect, he can hit a straight ball about 20 yards shorter than his potential. When his timing is not perfect, he will either hit it thin or miss it left. Once in a while IF the right shoulder also drops he will hit a massive slice with the driver, but that will not be his regular miss.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pine is right on with his assessments. I would toss this out there: that none of the shoulder/axis/hands stuff even matters if the lower body is not leading the way. The stronger one's grip is, the more one's swing is dependent on lower body power and momentum. Since the first part of the puzzle is not quite there, the rest simply can't be there. The answer? Start more open, or find a way to get the weight forward while turning. Or go the other way and weaken the grip as to let the arms swing around a body that is not supportive of a strong grip. One way is not necessarily better than the other, but having one's grip match their swing is a key to consistency...

 

Yeah, the weight shift is solid. That's why I said he isn't far away. He is also squaring the clubface pretty well (the back of the right hand isn't pointed to the sky). His sternum pulling out and his shoulders not going forward is putting his swing arc behind the ball, which means if he "released" he'd dig a nice garden. His brain knows this and won't let it happen so he lunges at it and sideswipes it. When his timing is perfect, he can hit a straight ball about 20 yards shorter than his potential. When his timing is not perfect, he will either hit it thin or miss it left. Once in a while IF the right shoulder also drops he will hit a massive slice with the driver, but that will not be his regular miss.

 

My usual miss with driver is a pull, or pull hook. My miss with irons is totally different as I have a completely different concept for hitting them (a very bad concept). The only clubs I can hit well, consistently, are fairway woods (I carry 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11). I put the ball inside my left foot and hit them with a slightly descending blow, hands just ahead. I can’t seem to get the same idea into my irons, or when I do, it’s starts off too badly and I lose patience. With driver, I suspect I’ve taken the notion of ‘hitting up on the ball’ too far and too far off track.

 

I’ve had glimmers of what you’ve been talking about. It’ll work great and feel effortless, but then, I’ll lose my mind and get caught up in some weird theory. It probably just bothered me that I didn’t understand, at all, why it worked, so when things went wrongly, I was at a loss as to how to fix it.

 

Well, now I’ve got ideas to play with and that’s always interesting to me. I appreciate all your input, Pine. Cool stuff.

[jslane57]

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pine is right on with his assessments. I would toss this out there: that none of the shoulder/axis/hands stuff even matters if the lower body is not leading the way. The stronger one's grip is, the more one's swing is dependent on lower body power and momentum. Since the first part of the puzzle is not quite there, the rest simply can't be there. The answer? Start more open, or find a way to get the weight forward while turning. Or go the other way and weaken the grip as to let the arms swing around a body that is not supportive of a strong grip. One way is not necessarily better than the other, but having one's grip match their swing is a key to consistency...

 

Yeah, the weight shift is solid. That's why I said he isn't far away. He is also squaring the clubface pretty well (the back of the right hand isn't pointed to the sky). His sternum pulling out and his shoulders not going forward is putting his swing arc behind the ball, which means if he "released" he'd dig a nice garden. His brain knows this and won't let it happen so he lunges at it and sideswipes it. When his timing is perfect, he can hit a straight ball about 20 yards shorter than his potential. When his timing is not perfect, he will either hit it thin or miss it left. Once in a while IF the right shoulder also drops he will hit a massive slice with the driver, but that will not be his regular miss.

 

My usual miss with driver is a pull, or pull hook. My miss with irons is totally different as I have a completely different concept for hitting them (a very bad concept). The only clubs I can hit well, consistently, are fairway woods (I carry 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11). I put the ball inside my left foot and hit them with a slightly descending blow, hands just ahead. I can't seem to get the same idea into my irons, or when I do, it's starts off too badly and I lose patience. With driver, I suspect I've taken the notion of 'hitting up on the ball' too far and too far off track.

 

I've had glimmers of what you've been talking about. It'll work great and feel effortless, but then, I'll lose my mind and get caught up in some weird theory. It probably just bothered me that I didn't understand, at all, why it worked, so when things went wrongly, I was at a loss as to how to fix it.

 

Well, now I've got ideas to play with and that's always interesting to me. I appreciate all your input, Pine. Cool stuff.

The misses as well as the photo (that is drawn all over) show an incomplete weight shift. As in a shift, without a turn. So in essence, a stall. The lower body needs to lead all the way to the finish if a strong grip is to be successful. I'd guess that if we saw the rest of the swing in such detail the upper body leads the way shortly after the photo. It's all good. Golf is a great game, and these discussions are all part of it.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pine is right on with his assessments. I would toss this out there: that none of the shoulder/axis/hands stuff even matters if the lower body is not leading the way. The stronger one's grip is, the more one's swing is dependent on lower body power and momentum. Since the first part of the puzzle is not quite there, the rest simply can't be there. The answer? Start more open, or find a way to get the weight forward while turning. Or go the other way and weaken the grip as to let the arms swing around a body that is not supportive of a strong grip. One way is not necessarily better than the other, but having one's grip match their swing is a key to consistency...

 

Yeah, the weight shift is solid. That's why I said he isn't far away. He is also squaring the clubface pretty well (the back of the right hand isn't pointed to the sky). His sternum pulling out and his shoulders not going forward is putting his swing arc behind the ball, which means if he "released" he'd dig a nice garden. His brain knows this and won't let it happen so he lunges at it and sideswipes it. When his timing is perfect, he can hit a straight ball about 20 yards shorter than his potential. When his timing is not perfect, he will either hit it thin or miss it left. Once in a while IF the right shoulder also drops he will hit a massive slice with the driver, but that will not be his regular miss.

 

My usual miss with driver is a pull, or pull hook. My miss with irons is totally different as I have a completely different concept for hitting them (a very bad concept). The only clubs I can hit well, consistently, are fairway woods (I carry 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11). I put the ball inside my left foot and hit them with a slightly descending blow, hands just ahead. I can't seem to get the same idea into my irons, or when I do, it's starts off too badly and I lose patience. With driver, I suspect I've taken the notion of 'hitting up on the ball' too far and too far off track.

 

I've had glimmers of what you've been talking about. It'll work great and feel effortless, but then, I'll lose my mind and get caught up in some weird theory. It probably just bothered me that I didn't understand, at all, why it worked, so when things went wrongly, I was at a loss as to how to fix it.

 

Well, now I've got ideas to play with and that's always interesting to me. I appreciate all your input, Pine. Cool stuff.

The misses as well as the photo (that is drawn all over) show an incomplete weight shift. As in a shift, without a turn. So in essence, a stall. The lower body needs to lead all the way to the finish if a strong grip is to be successful. I'd guess that if we saw the rest of the swing in such detail the upper body leads the way shortly after the photo. It's all good. Golf is a great game, and these discussions are all part of it.

 

Most of my swing thoughts amount to “right hand, kill!!!” with no thought about my body at all. On the few recent occasions when I did mess with a lower body generated swing, I did notice my upper body not waiting to be thrown into action. It used to, but I think that’s been lost in too much right arm fascism.

 

Yeah, this was a fun thread. I much prefer discussing ideas to the specifics of method, unless the specifics of method serve to illustrate a concept.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

So, I went to the range today...what a mess. My hopes were dashed early with the oh so familiar sensations of powerless effort. The only clubs I could hit were my set's pitching wedge (X2notsoHot) and my v-steel 7wood (there's probably a lot of golf I could play with those two clubs and my putter). I gave up on what I went to do and started playing with things that I've been working on more that are a little clearer to me. These things are usually Malaska stuff, or Monte stuff. The Malaska stuff was not going so well, either, so I started trying Monte's 'lead with the right' elbow cue. This worked a lot better, but I still feel as if I'm rushing my swing. It reminds me of the best way to defend against someone swinging a club at you (you step into them so they can't hit you with the end of the club). It feels as if I'm hitting the ball with the handle rather than the clubhead.

 

I came across this video a little earlier tonight.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo_XJL4UqKk

 

I've become a fan of these 'this weird thing + that weird thing = glory' videos, where someone says "if you stick your finger up your *** while titling your head back and opening your mouth, your finger should rocket right through the ceiling." It's very similar to an AH]Lee Comeaux[/CHOO!!! video in which he talks about chopping the right arm straight down while turning. (Oddly, the idea comes across more clearly in Japanese, which I don't speak. Maybe it's better when there are fewer interruptions from all those internal voices.)

 

Anyway, I've heard both Faldo and Como talk about starting the swing by pulling the butt of the club away from the target. I can't even make myself do it. I'm in too much of a hurry to pull the club right down at the ball. (For those of you who are suddenly concerned, I'm not an adherent to the 'pull the chain' school of golf. I just didn't know how else to describe it.) The feeling the Ozawa dude is promoting shows some promise for maybe getting me to add a few more layers of icy terror to my snowball of doom before I crush the unsuspecting alpine village, metaphorically speaking. Well, time for more wine.

[pinestreetgolf]

Its pretty much impossible to improve at golf making full swings. Its like trying to learn the piano by playing the nutcracker suite at full speed over and over and over. You break it up into sections, and you work a little bit at a time. Its like the old, very true joke... how do you get to Carnegie Hall? One day at a time.

 

Get a sand wedge. Hit half swings at a 70-ish yard target. Make dead solid contact ten times in a row. If you can't do that you have no chance of doing it at balls-out full speed.

 

Again, feel free to ignore, but the golf swing is simple. The backswing is a turn and a hinge. The downswing is a slide (with everything, including the shoulders) and a turn. All that stuff is nonsense. Get a sand wedge, get a picture of ideal impact, and swing slow until you can *compress* the ball with a sand wedge at half speed. You'll know it as soon as you feel it.

 

Golf is wonderful because nobody can explain ideal impact. You have to feel it - the different sound, the vibrations, how the ball just takes off. You need to get very familiar with how YOU feel the ideal impact position in that picture. THat requires you to take a month or five, slow down, and make half and quarter swings with a lot of loft. Once you can do it every time with a wedge at half speed (please note i don't mean "hit an acceptable shot" i mean make *perfect* contact consistently).

 

It cannot be explained to you. Its as if those instruction videos are in German, because they are talking about how it feels to *their body* not how it feels to *your body*.

 

Then at night, tape a can of beans to a 3 iron and make slow motion swings making sure the weight never gets outside your forearms. 50 slow motion swings a night.

 

I was a 15 cap for a long time. Then i took a year and a half to learn what impact felt like (my chest covers the ball, my hips are opening violently while chest stays over the ball, my head is seperated from my left shoulder) and built strength with the can. Now I'm better.

 

If your goal is to have fun on the range please do not let me stop you! If your goal is to get better, slow down and take one club - your sand wedge.

 

Here's my can:

[Petunia Sprinkle]

I’ll probably skip the beans, but you’re right about contact. I spend a lot of time chipping golf balls and pitching ping-pong balls in my bonus room with a lob wedge. My contact is as good as it’s ever been in there, so when I get to the range, 90% of the time, I hit 8-lw perfectly fine, doesn’t matter what swing I put on them. When I get to the 7 (30°), though, that’s when the problem starts (I’m talking about my X2 Hots, not my old blades). I think that’s where I start worrying about ‘delofting’, to the point of distraction, with irons. It doesn’t happen with hybrids, or woods. On good days, I’ll even practice hitting cuts out of a divot with my driver. The 28° 11wood I just got looks like it might replace my 7iron, so maybe it doesn’t matter.

 

Pine, your discussion of the physics of the matter were very interesting to me. They’re concepts I hadn’t considered before. Concepts are not just important to me, they’re interesting to me.

In talking about why he called his book Golf My Way, Jack Nicklaus said it was just his way, not necessarily THE way, and if it worked for him, it might work for us. I think you’ve presented your concepts and ideas about methodology in the same spirit and I think discussions about a lot of things would go better if everyone followed suit.

 

When it comes to methods, I’ve never stuck to one, not even ones that worked. I’m just too easily swayed by new toys (on a music teacher’s salary, I can’t club ho, so I swing ho instead). At 61, that’s likely to get even worse.

[pinestreetgolf]

On good days, I'll even practice hitting cuts out of a divot with my driver.

 

My pro (FWIW) says that the acid test for contact is elevating a driver off the ground. If you can do that, you can hit anything.

 

Pine, your discussion of the physics of the matter were very interesting to me. They're concepts I hadn't considered before. Concepts are not just important to me, they're interesting to me.

In talking about why he called his book Golf My Way, Jack Nicklaus said it was just his way, not necessarily THE way, and if it worked for him, it might work for us. I think you've presented your concepts and ideas about methodology in the same spirit and I think discussions about a lot of things would go better if everyone followed suit.

 

When it comes to methods, I've never stuck to one, not even ones that worked. I'm just too easily swayed by new toys (on a music teacher's salary, I can't club ho, so I swing ho instead). At 61, that's likely to get even worse.

 

Yeah, its a trickey game, and i love the term "swing ho'ing". I tried a whole lot of different things before i found something that worked for me - turning my shoulders 90 while hinging my wrists, covering the ball with my chest while my lower body rotated hard. Those two concepts alone, with the can, all the time.

 

I have no idea if they will work for you or not! I do know the chest-covering at impact is pretty universal. You can see it really well in Koepka's driver swing from behind (which i've patterned my swing after):

 

 

top of his backswing, seven seconds, his lower body is super still but his shoulders have fully turned and wrists fully hinged. That said *his chest has turned backwards it has not gone a centimeter laterally its just turned*.

 

impact is eight seconds. look how hard his hip drive BUT where his chest is pointing. Chest is right in front of / on top of the ball, hips are pushing HARD open. They are disconnected.

 

The way I think about the golf swing is playing piano with two hands - your lower body and your upper body. Both get forward, but one rips open through impact (lower) and one holds in (upper). The can work at night is simply drilling being able to seperate the two, like two hands playing guitar. upper controls impact, lower controls power.

 

You can kinda get away with swiping in the short irons because you can still square the face wtih the sternum bailing out. But as the shafts get longer, that gets harder.

 

But YMMV!!

 

Good luck! As always, the key is to find something that works for you. This is just what worked for me.