JB Holmes Pace of play (merged)

[elwhippy]

JB has announced he would do the same again. And we wonder why Golf is seen as taking too long for people balancing a family and career these days.

[BNGL]

FWIW I do think play could be sped up obviously it can get slow at times. And the tour is aware of the problem, as someone said it is discussed every year, but I'm not an official, I offer my opinion as a player who understands the intricacies of what goes into playing at an elite level. I know it's discussed amongst guys like Mark Russel, Peter Dachisen, Hal Geyer, Rob Keller to name a few. That's one thing that's a topic at every orientation for new players.

 

For the people that say make a decision you're so talented or imagine telling the marshal waiting for the ideal conditions...you're never going to convince me that those two are the same. Again I don't talk to JB or Brandon at all, he used to loop for Josh Teater (Teter?) awhile back so I'm kinda familiar with BP. In my opinion he has three clubs that can get there, 3 wood, 5 wood, and I think he can cover with a nutted iron. He made a business decision, and I would have loved to see him go for it, 3 wood comes in too hot and ends up where Alex did, 5 wood is the club but stopping on the correct section of the green is tough, really tough to get a decent look at legitimately making an eagle putt. (Which is why I have always thought to put the flag more in the back, I think you could see more exciting looks at eagle to tie or win etc I think Nick even alluded to it in the coverage) An iron in that situation brings too many bad things into play. And with it being the third event of the season for JB, I understand the economics of his play. 3 FedEx Cup points and only 18k on the season so far? Yeah he'll get some starts on past champion status, but you don't go broke trying to make a profit. Every dollar counts, and if you make the decision that you cannot win this time a player then has to focus on what can I do instead to maximiz my earnings for this event to set up and secure my future? We can say all we want 21 million so far, but who knows if he made bad investments or was screwed out of it a la Henrik Stenson.

 

Ps I hate getting pulled back into this thread, because I know I can't win. I'm not tying to argue or call anyone out, just trying to offer a different perspective on an issue.

 

Brandel Chamblee, is that you?

 

Haha no it's not. I try not watch those shows.when I watch coverage I always watch on mute, especially when buddies are getting lots of coverage. Those talking heads annoy the heck out of me, the only opinion I respect and listen to is Faldo.

Chamblee actually said after the round Holmes was thinking of Ryder Cup and Fed Ex points. Nobilo and the host of Golf Central (his name escapes me) Basically said "Are you kidding?"

 

I actually agree with that, and if you peruse this thread to earlier posts I said that. Just to reiterate, he only had 3 FedEx Cup points, and 18k on the season. And I do not think anyone eagled the 18th on Sunday? This sort of stuff happens all the time, just not usually in one of the final groups. The only part of the whole incident that I find puzzling, is the layup into the rough, I don't get that one. But I do understand his logic being in the position he was in, I probably would have done the same thing truthfully.

[Valtiel]

I just don't see why it's such a big issue. Yeah, I'm sure Noren didn't like it, but considering it was a 6 hour round, you can be sure Noren took his sweet time on some shots too - JB's was just in the spotlight. JB has had a slow start, and the $ difference between hitting in the water and not hitting it in the water is big. With where that pin is tucked it could easily be argued that he has just as good a shot, if not better, to make an eagle with a wedge. Does JB deserve some slack? Yeah, sure. But he doesn't deserve the level of hate he's getting on this board. I mean hell, Jason Day has openly said he'll takes as much time as he pleases, despite any effect it might have. JB is playing to entertain, but above that he's playing for his livelihood.

 

Everything you just said regarding the shot choice and variables is true and should take 45 seconds to decide. Pin tucked and a bunch of wind? Not goin' for it! What is to decide at that point? The only possibilities are that he was locked up/having a brain fart (his fault) or was waiting for some magical wind condition to make going for it a viable option (acceptable within reasonable pace of play, completely unacceptable and unsportsmanlike outside of it). If you're going to pull a JD and "take as much time as you please" it better be because you're figuring out exactly what shot you need to win, not what shot you need to minimize the amount of money you're going to lose, because the latter is a straight forward execution with minimal variables involved and does NOT warrant several minutes to figure out, especially if you're just going to screw it up anyway.

[bladehunter]

I'm reminded of Faldo on the 13th at Augusta in 1996 when he destroyed Norman. Second shot from about 220, took forever debating between a 5 wood and 2 iron. Eventually striped the two iron into the heart of the green. I immediately thought of that once he was criticising JB yesterday, but the difference was he pulled it off and didn't chicken out.

 

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

J.B Holmes took over 1 min longer than Faldo did, btw..

 

 

A whole minute ? Lol. Good grief. More I think about it the more I know Jb is correct. This happens every single week. The camera just cuts away and then back when the player is ready to hit. We only saw it because it was 18 and he had a chance to tie. Tour needs to address slow play. But it needs to address its own issues. 6 hour round wasn’t jbs doing.

[bladehunter]

JB has announced he would do the same again. And we wonder why Golf is seen as taking too long for people balancing a family and career these days.

 

 

??? Really ?

[bladehunter]

Justin Thomas defended the time it took JB at the presser for WM Tourney.

 

Why? don't any of the Journalists ask him about the actual rules in place that govern this?

 

 

Since you said this. What is the rule ?

[Hawkeye77]

I've looked, but I can't find anything actually showing where the group in front of Homes was when his group teed off on 17 and 18. I think Luke Donald (who cares) suggested they were a hole and one-half behind, which is not what I recall about where the other group was, but not sure.

 

If there is something concrete, like a video, haven't been able to find it, not really looking for just recollections.

 

Point is, JB's group wasn't so far behind that it alone is responsible for a 6 hour round, and based on when Day's group finished, it didn't seem unreasonably long. The rounds took forever on Sunday.

 

As for the 4 minutes or whatever, it's so easy to jump all over someone for the one thing they did and "slow play" gets people fired up and especially golf commentators after the fact that week after week see similar stuff or know about similar stuff and don't say anything about it.

 

After a few days, I'm just not seeing the wrath and rage over that moment. He didn't handle that one shot all that well, which is mostly what he is being crucified for, and plenty of players are deliberate all the way around the course. I can sure see in that moment getting a little tense and indecisive and not really thinking about time. He made two mistakes - overthinking (that may be a generous term in this case) and making the wrong decision if he was trying to win but just can't get myself all worked up over it.

 

Didn't affect me at all, I wasn't playing, didn't seem to affect Noren at all, so I'll be forgetting all about it - there's certainly nothing about it that affects pace of play with anyone I ever play with, that's always just fine.

[buckeyefl]

Completely false. You see it Everytime you play because people copy what they see the pros doing. You are not golfing or living in a vacuum.

 

Also how can you say it didn't affect the other players. Again that's simply false unless you are playing alone and no one is waiting behind you.

[jmvargas]

i think the issue was how long it took him to take that one shot although the discussion has now evolved on the pace of play which was already very slow for the field..

 

if we only take that one shot...4 minutes + is just too long..

[BNGL]

Completely false. You see it Everytime you play because people copy what they see the pros doing. You are not golfing or living in a vacuum.

 

Also how can you say it didn't affect the other players. Again that's simply false unless you are playing alone and no one is waiting behind you.

 

How do you know it did affect the other players? Unless he comes out and says it, there's no way to know. These are the best of the best the absolute tenth of a percent of golf players. The reason they're there on tv is they know how to compartmentalize and execute their games. He may have had the club in his hands but he may not have started his actual routine till it was definitely his turn to play. That's something a lot of metal coaches teach, my guy called it the hitting zone, imagine a 12x12x12 cube. Once you enter that cube you're doing your routine whether it's 10 seconds or 30 seconds. What happens before that is irrelevant. And when you leave the box, it's over. A lot of guys I played with work that same image.

 

Next time I see him at Bears I'll try to ask

[bladehunter]

Completely false. You see it Everytime you play because people copy what they see the pros doing. You are not golfing or living in a vacuum.

 

Also how can you say it didn't affect the other players. Again that's simply false unless you are playing alone and no one is waiting behind you.

 

 

just dont see it... ive never seen an am take 4 minutes to hit anything ....or even close .... ams are slow to hit shots mostly because of carts..walkers will all go to each ball and usually be ready when its their turn.. cart riders are always sitting and waiting for a ride to their ball..... but of course the cart negates that by traveling faster between shots.... where the am is really slow is at the turn and on the tee... 4 tee balls to get one in bounds take a while...

[Hawkeye77]

Completely false. You see it Everytime you play because people copy what they see the pros doing. You are not golfing or living in a vacuum.

 

Also how can you say it didn't affect the other players. Again that's simply false unless you are playing alone and no one is waiting behind you.

 

Well, that's a little over the top, lol.

 

 

[BNGL]

I think Peter Kostis, of the Konica Minolta BizHub SwingVision Camera, did a study comparing PGA slow play v Amateur golf slow play, and found that ams slow play was more a result of talking. I'll try to find it and link it to this post

[bladehunter]

I think Peter Kostis, of the Konica Minolta BizHub SwingVision Camera, did a study comparing PGA slow play v Amateur golf slow play, and found that ams slow play was more a result of talking. I'll try to find it and link it to this post

 

 

Absolutely true. Never seen an am stand and try to wait the wind out or discuss a club selection for any length of time. It’s usually “that guy “ who’s telling his 18th story of the day blocking the tee till he finishes.

[golfer07840]

Well all this griping is for naught anyway. The Commissioner yesterday gave the very typical line of "We discuss the pace of play problem... we use technology to figure out how to speed things up..."

 

Basically, they aren't going to do anything about it.

[drn92]

Shot clocks and penalty strokes.

 

drn92

[Imp]

I've looked, but I can't find anything actually showing where the group in front of Homes was when his group teed off on 17 and 18. I think Luke Donald (who cares) suggested they were a hole and one-half behind, which is not what I recall about where the other group was, but not sure.

 

If there is something concrete, like a video, haven't been able to find it, not really looking for just recollections.

I wonder if the PGA Shot Tracker software captures the time the shot was entered into the system (I'm almost certain most tracking databases would have a timestamp the entry was filed). Should be easy enough to create a tracker that shows positions/times of players around the course when the shot gets entered. Usually the shot gets entered in the PDA, or fairway/green laser within a handful of seconds/within a minute (remembering my time using them at Deutechebank both fairway and greenside). You should then be able use that data to extrapolate where the players/foursomes were on the course at any point in time for playback.

 

Just use the time the ball is tagged in the fairway or putt, and their previous known position as the time hit.

 

Then you can chart/plot players positions throughout the whole round over a map of the course within probably a 1 minute. You won't have the time they GOT to their position, but just the time they hit the ball. But it will answer the question "where was (some other group) in relation to (player) at (time)?"

 

I would be surprised if the PGA *doesn't* use something like this internally already.

 

--kC

[MountainKing]

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2018/tournamentid=2018048/news/newsid=335092.html

 

 

Thoughts on if this becomes a thing (it won't) at every tour event? I wouldn't mind seeing the tour get with the times as well and allow gps/laser for yardage and get rid of those books showing the greens breaks. I'm curious to how much that would save. You figure at best it's a 30 second job to figure out yardage to pin/front/back and then whatever else. I can't help but think some of these guys just like information overload.

[QuigleyDU]

I've looked, but I can't find anything actually showing where the group in front of Homes was when his group teed off on 17 and 18. I think Luke Donald (who cares) suggested they were a hole and one-half behind, which is not what I recall about where the other group was, but not sure.

 

If there is something concrete, like a video, haven't been able to find it, not really looking for just recollections.

I wonder if the PGA Shot Tracker software captures the time the shot was entered into the system (I'm almost certain most tracking databases would have a timestamp the entry was filed). Should be easy enough to create a tracker that shows positions/times of players around the course when the shot gets entered. Usually the shot gets entered in the PDA, or fairway/green laser within a handful of seconds/within a minute (remembering my time using them at Deutechebank both fairway and greenside). You should then be able use that data to extrapolate where the players/foursomes were on the course at any point in time for playback.

 

Just use the time the ball is tagged in the fairway or putt, and their previous known position as the time hit.

 

Then you can chart/plot players positions throughout the whole round over a map of the course within probably a 1 minute. You won't have the time they GOT to their position, but just the time they hit the ball. But it will answer the question "where was (some other group) in relation to (player) at (time)?"

 

I would be surprised if the PGA *doesn't* use something like this internally already.

 

--kC

 

something like the bracelets they give you at races that track you via GPS would work. hang a tag on their bags. once they hit their tee shot there is a clock that starts. make it completely automated. reach hole 5 by a certain time or get penalized, reach hole 9 by a certain time or get penalized. it would not be hard to completely automate it so there was no thought, nor bias, just a clock and someone watching it. they radio a ground crew team to tell the group that they are 3 min behind schedule on certain holes so the players have an opportunity to make up time, if they do not, then say sorry you didn't make it that is a one stroke penalty.

[bladehunter]

I've looked, but I can't find anything actually showing where the group in front of Homes was when his group teed off on 17 and 18. I think Luke Donald (who cares) suggested they were a hole and one-half behind, which is not what I recall about where the other group was, but not sure.

 

If there is something concrete, like a video, haven't been able to find it, not really looking for just recollections.

I wonder if the PGA Shot Tracker software captures the time the shot was entered into the system (I'm almost certain most tracking databases would have a timestamp the entry was filed). Should be easy enough to create a tracker that shows positions/times of players around the course when the shot gets entered. Usually the shot gets entered in the PDA, or fairway/green laser within a handful of seconds/within a minute (remembering my time using them at Deutechebank both fairway and greenside). You should then be able use that data to extrapolate where the players/foursomes were on the course at any point in time for playback.

 

Just use the time the ball is tagged in the fairway or putt, and their previous known position as the time hit.

 

Then you can chart/plot players positions throughout the whole round over a map of the course within probably a 1 minute. You won't have the time they GOT to their position, but just the time they hit the ball. But it will answer the question "where was (some other group) in relation to (player) at (time)?"

 

I would be surprised if the PGA *doesn't* use something like this internally already.

 

--kC

 

something like the bracelets they give you at races that track you via GPS would work. hang a tag on their bags. once they hit their tee shot there is a clock that starts. make it completely automated. reach hole 5 by a certain time or get penalized, reach hole 9 by a certain time or get penalized. it would not be hard to completely automate it so there was no thought, nor bias, just a clock and someone watching it. they radio a ground crew team to tell the group that they are 3 min behind schedule on certain holes so the players have an opportunity to make up time, if they do not, then say sorry you didn't make it that is a one stroke penalty.

 

 

What happens when a ruling is needed ? And what happens to the groups behind the group getting a ruling ? Sunday almost al of the last groups , past tigers group would have been penalized because of the 8 shot on # 3 par 3. Took for ever for the ruling and to finish the hole. Then everyone waited 25-30 min in the tee to hit. In an automated system that’s 15 groups docked a stroke ?

[QuigleyDU]

I've looked, but I can't find anything actually showing where the group in front of Homes was when his group teed off on 17 and 18. I think Luke Donald (who cares) suggested they were a hole and one-half behind, which is not what I recall about where the other group was, but not sure.

 

If there is something concrete, like a video, haven't been able to find it, not really looking for just recollections.

I wonder if the PGA Shot Tracker software captures the time the shot was entered into the system (I'm almost certain most tracking databases would have a timestamp the entry was filed). Should be easy enough to create a tracker that shows positions/times of players around the course when the shot gets entered. Usually the shot gets entered in the PDA, or fairway/green laser within a handful of seconds/within a minute (remembering my time using them at Deutechebank both fairway and greenside). You should then be able use that data to extrapolate where the players/foursomes were on the course at any point in time for playback.

 

Just use the time the ball is tagged in the fairway or putt, and their previous known position as the time hit.

 

Then you can chart/plot players positions throughout the whole round over a map of the course within probably a 1 minute. You won't have the time they GOT to their position, but just the time they hit the ball. But it will answer the question "where was (some other group) in relation to (player) at (time)?"

 

I would be surprised if the PGA *doesn't* use something like this internally already.

 

--kC

 

something like the bracelets they give you at races that track you via GPS would work. hang a tag on their bags. once they hit their tee shot there is a clock that starts. make it completely automated. reach hole 5 by a certain time or get penalized, reach hole 9 by a certain time or get penalized. it would not be hard to completely automate it so there was no thought, nor bias, just a clock and someone watching it. they radio a ground crew team to tell the group that they are 3 min behind schedule on certain holes so the players have an opportunity to make up time, if they do not, then say sorry you didn't make it that is a one stroke penalty.

 

 

What happens when a ruling is needed ? And what happens to the groups behind the group getting a ruling ? Sunday almost al of the last groups , past tigers group would have been penalized because of the 8 shot on # 3 par 3. Took for ever for the ruling and to finish the hole. Then everyone waited 25-30 min in the tee to hit. In an automated system that's 15 groups docked a stroke ?

 

your telling me there is no way to factor that in? I didn't say it had to be speed golf fast, and they already have a clock and a time limit. it is just not inforced. very few groups get "put on the clock" as they say and are holding up groups based on expected progress times even with rulings, blow up holes, etc. all i am saying is take the human aspect out of it and make it automatic. it could even be pretty lacks. but i bet it would make a difference in pace if players knew they had two hours to complete 5 (random number make it whatever you want) holes or something like that.

[WidespreadPanic]

JB has announced he would do the same again. And we wonder why Golf is seen as taking too long for people balancing a family and career these days.

Lol what?

[reelop19]

DJ is one of the fastest players in tour and he’s #1 in the world. Maybe they all need to be on that nose candy

[bladehunter]

I've looked, but I can't find anything actually showing where the group in front of Homes was when his group teed off on 17 and 18. I think Luke Donald (who cares) suggested they were a hole and one-half behind, which is not what I recall about where the other group was, but not sure.

 

If there is something concrete, like a video, haven't been able to find it, not really looking for just recollections.

I wonder if the PGA Shot Tracker software captures the time the shot was entered into the system (I'm almost certain most tracking databases would have a timestamp the entry was filed). Should be easy enough to create a tracker that shows positions/times of players around the course when the shot gets entered. Usually the shot gets entered in the PDA, or fairway/green laser within a handful of seconds/within a minute (remembering my time using them at Deutechebank both fairway and greenside). You should then be able use that data to extrapolate where the players/foursomes were on the course at any point in time for playback.

 

Just use the time the ball is tagged in the fairway or putt, and their previous known position as the time hit.

 

Then you can chart/plot players positions throughout the whole round over a map of the course within probably a 1 minute. You won't have the time they GOT to their position, but just the time they hit the ball. But it will answer the question "where was (some other group) in relation to (player) at (time)?"

 

I would be surprised if the PGA *doesn't* use something like this internally already.

 

--kC

 

something like the bracelets they give you at races that track you via GPS would work. hang a tag on their bags. once they hit their tee shot there is a clock that starts. make it completely automated. reach hole 5 by a certain time or get penalized, reach hole 9 by a certain time or get penalized. it would not be hard to completely automate it so there was no thought, nor bias, just a clock and someone watching it. they radio a ground crew team to tell the group that they are 3 min behind schedule on certain holes so the players have an opportunity to make up time, if they do not, then say sorry you didn't make it that is a one stroke penalty.

 

 

What happens when a ruling is needed ? And what happens to the groups behind the group getting a ruling ? Sunday almost al of the last groups , past tigers group would have been penalized because of the 8 shot on # 3 par 3. Took for ever for the ruling and to finish the hole. Then everyone waited 25-30 min in the tee to hit. In an automated system that's 15 groups docked a stroke ?

 

your telling me there is no way to factor that in? I didn't say it had to be speed golf fast, and they already have a clock and a time limit. it is just not inforced. very few groups get "put on the clock" as they say and are holding up groups based on expected progress times even with rulings, blow up holes, etc. all i am saying is take the human aspect out of it and make it automatic. it could even be pretty lacks. but i bet it would make a difference in pace if players knew they had two hours to complete 5 (random number make it whatever you want) holes or something like that.

 

I am for them enforcing whatever rule is in place. But I don’t see how it can be automated. It will take human input for any and all non perfect holes.

[imakaveli]

JT defending JB is the reason why PGA Tour will do nothing about it, shame

[buckeyefl]

Completely false. You see it Everytime you play because people copy what they see the pros doing. You are not golfing or living in a vacuum.

 

Also how can you say it didn't affect the other players. Again that's simply false unless you are playing alone and no one is waiting behind you.

 

How do you know it did affect the other players? Unless he comes out and says it, there's no way to know. These are the best of the best the absolute tenth of a percent of golf players. The reason they're there on tv is they know how to compartmentalize and execute their games. He may have had the club in his hands but he may not have started his actual routine till it was definitely his turn to play. That's something a lot of metal coaches teach, my guy called it the hitting zone, imagine a 12x12x12 cube. Once you enter that cube you're doing your routine whether it's 10 seconds or 30 seconds. What happens before that is irrelevant. And when you leave the box, it's over. A lot of guys I played with work that same image.

 

Next time I see him at Bears I'll try to ask

 

I'm well aware of who they are and what they are capable of and along with a bunch of time with the best players of our time I also spent a lot with a few of their psychologists. You can implement your plan and say it had no effect but that is usually not reality when you get down to it. Do you think Sneds or any other fast player isn't bothered by slow play? Of course they are. The PSR is there to help tone down the negatives that come from the distractions, not completely remove it. That's not my opinion, that's from the horses mouth and personal experience in things much more stressful than a golf tournament.

 

Put a heart rate monitor on some of them and see what happens in that scenario. He'll JBs oreshot didn't help as he slowly over many holes got skiwer and slower. His stress level was high and the greatest PSR in the world wasn't going to fix it.

[buckeyefl]

JT defending JB is the reason why PGA Tour will do nothing about it, shame

 

Exactly right. What a self centered, out if touch attitude he displayed. His dad should be ashamed.

[buckeyefl]

JB has announced he would do the same again. And we wonder why Golf is seen as taking too long for people balancing a family and career these days.

Lol what?

 

Tour players take to long

 

People try to emulate them

 

Golf is struggling because people say one of the big problems us how long it takes to play.

 

[sdandrea]

Completely false. You see it Everytime you play because people copy what they see the pros doing. You are not golfing or living in a vacuum.

 

Also how can you say it didn't affect the other players. Again that's simply false unless you are playing alone and no one is waiting behind you.

 

How do you know it did affect the other players? Unless he comes out and says it, there's no way to know. These are the best of the best the absolute tenth of a percent of golf players. The reason they're there on tv is they know how to compartmentalize and execute their games. He may have had the club in his hands but he may not have started his actual routine till it was definitely his turn to play. That's something a lot of metal coaches teach, my guy called it the hitting zone, imagine a 12x12x12 cube. Once you enter that cube you're doing your routine whether it's 10 seconds or 30 seconds. What happens before that is irrelevant. And when you leave the box, it's over. A lot of guys I played with work that same image.

 

Next time I see him at Bears I'll try to ask

 

I'm well aware of who they are and what they are capable of and along with a bunch of time with the best players of our time I also spent a lot with a few of their psychologists. You can implement your plan and say it had no effect but that is usually not reality when you get down to it. Do you think Sneds or any other fast player isn't bothered by slow play? Of course they are. The PSR is there to help tone down the negatives that come from the distractions, not completely remove it. That's not my opinion, that's from the horses mouth and personal experience in things much more stressful than a golf tournament.

 

Sned's pace should be the PGA standard. They could call it the SnedMeter.

[QuigleyDU]

 

I am for them enforcing whatever rule is in place. But I don't see how it can be automated. It will take human input for any and all non perfect holes.

 

fair enough.