JB Holmes Pace of play (merged)

[tnord]

I'm trying to imagine Jack Nicklaus with all the modern detailed information. He might take eight hours to play a round of golf.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. Was the Golden Bear a slow player? This is a legit question I'm only a kid.

 

Jack invented slow play. All the younger pros saw how meticulous he was and .... here we are.

 

which is probably how the tour got itself in a pickle. no way were they going to penalize jack and make him into a villain. and since they didn't do it to jack, they didn't do it to anyone.

 

tiger was slow too wasn't he? i remember seeing something about his average time per shot WRT where he was, and he kept an average pace until he got around the green, where he took forever. which i think is how jack was too...though i'm too young to have ever seen him.

 

20 handicaps emulate jack and tiger, courses get bigger and tougher, greens get faster.....and now we've got 5hr rounds as the norm.

[golfer07840]

Ron Sirak is a savage...

[JaNelson38]

The only way this gets better is that other tour players need to force it upon themselves to police their groups and pairings better.

 

Noren could have helped the situation Sunday by saying, "JB, while you're deciding what to do Im just gonna go ahead and hit." Or JB could have told his partners, "Guys Im between clubs here and trying to decide how I want to play this, you guys go ahead and hit your shots."

 

You can play more "ready golf" on the pro tour while still keeping the sanctity of farthest-away-goes-first in certain situations.

[tnord]

i think the tour should just pair all the slow players together at the end of the day on thurs/fri. having them get the windiest conditions with the bumpiest greens, and being stuck playing with themselves might help sort it out.

 

- comment made half in jest

[golfer07840]

I'm reminded of Faldo on the 13th at Augusta in 1996 when he destroyed Norman. Second shot from about 220, took forever debating between a 5 wood and 2 iron. Eventually striped the two iron into the heart of the green. I immediately thought of that once he was criticising JB yesterday, but the difference was he pulled it off and didn't chicken out.

 

 

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The best part of this, was old Ken Venturi saying he was laying up, but yet he wasn't.

[golfer07840]

I'm reminded of Faldo on the 13th at Augusta in 1996 when he destroyed Norman. Second shot from about 220, took forever debating between a 5 wood and 2 iron. Eventually striped the two iron into the heart of the green. I immediately thought of that once he was criticising JB yesterday, but the difference was he pulled it off and didn't chicken out.

 

 

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J.B Holmes took over 1 min longer than Faldo did, btw..

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Forgive me if this has been discussed, as I haven't read all the posts, but what would have happened if Noren said, "screw this waiting," and went ahead and hit first? Would that be a more egregious offense than Holmes taking over four minutes?

 

Maybe warn them first, I'd love to see that.

 

The problem is it doesn't change the slow play, although I would love to see it more often. It just caters to the slow players pace and is similar to slow players letting other through on a Saturday morning and then continuing to play slow.JB even said yesterday in his ridiculous interview with Rosaforte "Oh he could have went ahead and played". He also said, "I didn't realize it was taking that long".

I'd love to see a guy play ahead of his habitually slow competitor. If there is a sufficient gap ahead and JB is doing what he did, I'd say... "Hey JB, you can take as long as you want but I'm going up ahead, give me yell when you're ready to hit." I'd keep playing and leave him behind if he didn't speed up.

 

The majority shouldn't be held up by a few Dbags.

[super20dan]

here in florida having gators and moccasins helps speed up play. you don't spend much time looking for lost balls.

[golfer07840]

Time from start of video (Norman already at his ball - cleaning lie) until Norman hits (layup!) = 2:45

 

Time from Normans ball stopping til Faldo hits = 3:15

 

So not much different - both ridiculously slow though!!

 

Holmes still took longer. And at least Faldo was addressing his ball with the 5W. Holmes was literally standing there doing nothing for a few mins.

[golfer07840]

+ anybody yelling mashed potatoes needs to be banished not just from golf, but from this country, for the remainder of their pathetic lives.

 

I heard someone during the playoff on 18 say "Put another shrimp on the Barbie!" in a horrible Australian accent after Day hit a drive.

[tnord]

i'm really quite fine with tossing anybody yelling dumb stuff after any and all shots

 

but i'm also one of those guys that wishes nobody brought cell phones into tournaments.

[ClintDagger]

The highest level I ever attained was playing at the college level some 12-13 years ago. Most kids back then prided themselves on playing fast rounds. When you got paired with a slow player it was like telling a horror story to your buddies afterwards.

 

Last fall me & my regular playing partner played with a couple of good college players who play for an SEC school. Both shot rounds in the 60s. They took the place of our other two regular foursome dudes who are mid to high 70s players. Usually we can get our round in at the club in 3.5 hours or less, and sometimes close to 3 if we are motivated and trying to get home to watch football or something. With these kids it took 4.5 hours and I got a good chewing from our Marshall afterwards. I couldn’t believe the routines it took to get distances (using a laser finder mind you), then select a club, then preshot routine, then visualization. Total insanity.

 

It doesn’t bother me as much on tv because they can jump around to any of a dozen guys on course or use tape, but when you experience it first hand it’s absolutely jaw dropping.

[golfer07840]

FWIW I do think play could be sped up obviously it can get slow at times. And the tour is aware of the problem, as someone said it is discussed every year, but I'm not an official, I offer my opinion as a player who understands the intricacies of what goes into playing at an elite level. I know it's discussed amongst guys like Mark Russel, Peter Dachisen, Hal Geyer, Rob Keller to name a few. That's one thing that's a topic at every orientation for new players.

 

For the people that say make a decision you're so talented or imagine telling the marshal waiting for the ideal conditions...you're never going to convince me that those two are the same. Again I don't talk to JB or Brandon at all, he used to loop for Josh Teater (Teter?) awhile back so I'm kinda familiar with BP. In my opinion he has three clubs that can get there, 3 wood, 5 wood, and I think he can cover with a nutted iron. He made a business decision, and I would have loved to see him go for it, 3 wood comes in too hot and ends up where Alex did, 5 wood is the club but stopping on the correct section of the green is tough, really tough to get a decent look at legitimately making an eagle putt. (Which is why I have always thought to put the flag more in the back, I think you could see more exciting looks at eagle to tie or win etc I think Nick even alluded to it in the coverage) An iron in that situation brings too many bad things into play. And with it being the third event of the season for JB, I understand the economics of his play. 3 FedEx Cup points and only 18k on the season so far? Yeah he'll get some starts on past champion status, but you don't go broke trying to make a profit. Every dollar counts, and if you make the decision that you cannot win this time a player then has to focus on what can I do instead to maximiz my earnings for this event to set up and secure my future? We can say all we want 21 million so far, but who knows if he made bad investments or was screwed out of it a la Henrik Stenson.

 

Ps I hate getting pulled back into this thread, because I know I can't win. I'm not tying to argue or call anyone out, just trying to offer a different perspective on an issue.

 

Brandel Chamblee, is that you?

[ray9898]

If the play was to speed up, then tournaments would span less total time which means there would be less air time to sell for commercial ads. Ain't gonna happen. It's my money conspiracy theory.

 

There is already more golf than air time already. They never start a broadcast until it is well up the tee time list.

[Dpavs]

One other thing regarding JB's comments and any other PGA player with the same mentality... Pssst... Being in the last group on the last hole is not an automatic endowment to play slower than any other player in any other group on any other day.

[Tate]

Here is JB explaining it today at the WM.

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/holmes-shocked-reaction-his-delay-torrey/

[BlackDiamondPar5]

The highest level I ever attained was playing at the college level some 12-13 years ago. Most kids back then prided themselves on playing fast rounds. When you got paired with a slow player it was like telling a horror story to your buddies afterwards.

 

Last fall me & my regular playing partner played with a couple of good college players who play for an SEC school. Both shot rounds in the 60s. They took the place of our other two regular foursome dudes who are mid to high 70s players. Usually we can get our round in at the club in 3.5 hours or less, and sometimes close to 3 if we are motivated and trying to get home to watch football or something. With these kids it took 4.5 hours and I got a good chewing from our Marshall afterwards. I couldn't believe the routines it took to get distances (using a laser finder mind you), then select a club, then preshot routine, then visualization. Total insanity.

 

It doesn't bother me as much on tv because they can jump around to any of a dozen guys on course or use tape, but when you experience it first hand it's absolutely jaw dropping.

 

Maybe the Marshall should have given you guys a good chewing during the round... after the fact doesn't help you or the others behind you at all :)

[BearQ]

The highest level I ever attained was playing at the college level some 12-13 years ago. Most kids back then prided themselves on playing fast rounds. When you got paired with a slow player it was like telling a horror story to your buddies afterwards.

 

Last fall me & my regular playing partner played with a couple of good college players who play for an SEC school. Both shot rounds in the 60s. They took the place of our other two regular foursome dudes who are mid to high 70s players. Usually we can get our round in at the club in 3.5 hours or less, and sometimes close to 3 if we are motivated and trying to get home to watch football or something. With these kids it took 4.5 hours and I got a good chewing from our Marshall afterwards. I couldn't believe the routines it took to get distances (using a laser finder mind you), then select a club, then preshot routine, then visualization. Total insanity.

 

It doesn't bother me as much on tv because they can jump around to any of a dozen guys on course or use tape, but when you experience it first hand it's absolutely jaw dropping.

 

Its one of the things that pushed me away from tournament golf in my teens. I learned to bare it as an adult and soak in the course, nature or just day dream. But it was a big change coming from basketball & tennis background.

 

Pace of play especially at the tournament level is brutal and is bad enough to the point where even if you love competition and golf, you will think twice. Its annoying and boring to max levels. It does suck the fun out of the game at times.

[lumberman2462]

When Jack got into his famous crouch over a putt, we all knew there was time to go make sandwich or put a second coat of paint on the garage, and still have time to come back to see him putt.

 

 

The difference was that always made the putt, or stuck his long iron close enough for a legit eagle chance.

 

And the difference is also Stature. Tiger could have been in the same position as JB on Sunday and you wouldn't have heard nearly the outcry. Maybe a few people that truly despise Tiger would bring it up. But not all Players are equal when it comes to criticism.

[Uhit]

I'm trying to imagine Jack Nicklaus with all the modern detailed information. He might take eight hours to play a round of golf.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. Was the Golden Bear a slow player? This is a legit question I'm only a kid.

 

Jack invented slow play. All the younger pros saw how meticulous he was and .... here we are.

 

Now, this is probably why he desperately tries to make the ball the culprit for longer rounds of golf...

 

...he tries to sneak himself out of responsibility for slow play. :beruo:

[Middler]

Like some others, I think he should have been put on notice by a rules official at least after 2-3 minutes. But I had a little sympathy for his situation, and his first interviews after where somewhat apologetic. But whatever sympathy I may have had was flushed this morning. On Golf Channel Morning Drive yesterday he was interviewed again, and when asked he said ‘if I was in the same position again, I’d do the same thing (take 4 min 10 sec).’ That’s unacceptable IMO. Many tournaments are looking for 60 seconds for the first player, and 40 seconds for other players thereafter for a given shot (tee, 2nd shot, 3rd, etc.) All PGA tour pros know that, or should. Any player who can’t tell the difference between 60 seconds and 4+ minutes is lying - JB’s first interview he said ‘he didn’t realize how long he was taking.’ I hope the PGA takes a more proactive approach to slow play, as the European tour has.

[BNGL]

FWIW I do think play could be sped up obviously it can get slow at times. And the tour is aware of the problem, as someone said it is discussed every year, but I'm not an official, I offer my opinion as a player who understands the intricacies of what goes into playing at an elite level. I know it's discussed amongst guys like Mark Russel, Peter Dachisen, Hal Geyer, Rob Keller to name a few. That's one thing that's a topic at every orientation for new players.

 

For the people that say make a decision you're so talented or imagine telling the marshal waiting for the ideal conditions...you're never going to convince me that those two are the same. Again I don't talk to JB or Brandon at all, he used to loop for Josh Teater (Teter?) awhile back so I'm kinda familiar with BP. In my opinion he has three clubs that can get there, 3 wood, 5 wood, and I think he can cover with a nutted iron. He made a business decision, and I would have loved to see him go for it, 3 wood comes in too hot and ends up where Alex did, 5 wood is the club but stopping on the correct section of the green is tough, really tough to get a decent look at legitimately making an eagle putt. (Which is why I have always thought to put the flag more in the back, I think you could see more exciting looks at eagle to tie or win etc I think Nick even alluded to it in the coverage) An iron in that situation brings too many bad things into play. And with it being the third event of the season for JB, I understand the economics of his play. 3 FedEx Cup points and only 18k on the season so far? Yeah he'll get some starts on past champion status, but you don't go broke trying to make a profit. Every dollar counts, and if you make the decision that you cannot win this time a player then has to focus on what can I do instead to maximiz my earnings for this event to set up and secure my future? We can say all we want 21 million so far, but who knows if he made bad investments or was screwed out of it a la Henrik Stenson.

 

Ps I hate getting pulled back into this thread, because I know I can't win. I'm not tying to argue or call anyone out, just trying to offer a different perspective on an issue.

 

Brandel Chamblee, is that you?

 

Haha no it's not. I try not watch those shows.when I watch coverage I always watch on mute, especially when buddies are getting lots of coverage. Those talking heads annoy the heck out of me, the only opinion I respect and listen to is Faldo.

[ebrasmus21]

Haney was ripping JB this morning on his radio program.

[MountainKing]

The JB situation was ridiculous but the round was over 6 hours if I remember correctly? That is way more ridiculous than just one shot taking a bit. I know it's a tough course, tough pins ect but come on. I'm all for instituting a shot clock, it's painful to watch pros play at a snails pace.

[ClintDagger]

The highest level I ever attained was playing at the college level some 12-13 years ago. Most kids back then prided themselves on playing fast rounds. When you got paired with a slow player it was like telling a horror story to your buddies afterwards.

 

Last fall me & my regular playing partner played with a couple of good college players who play for an SEC school. Both shot rounds in the 60s. They took the place of our other two regular foursome dudes who are mid to high 70s players. Usually we can get our round in at the club in 3.5 hours or less, and sometimes close to 3 if we are motivated and trying to get home to watch football or something. With these kids it took 4.5 hours and I got a good chewing from our Marshall afterwards. I couldn't believe the routines it took to get distances (using a laser finder mind you), then select a club, then preshot routine, then visualization. Total insanity.

 

It doesn't bother me as much on tv because they can jump around to any of a dozen guys on course or use tape, but when you experience it first hand it's absolutely jaw dropping.

 

Maybe the Marshall should have given you guys a good chewing during the round... after the fact doesn't help you or the others behind you at all :)

We got a decent one at the turn and more than a couple good drive up and stares. Lol.

[DrSchteeve]

Like some others, I think he should have been put on notice by a rules official at least after 2-3 minutes. But I had a little sympathy for his situation, and his first interviews after where somewhat apologetic. But whatever sympathy I may have had was flushed this morning. On Golf Channel Morning Drive yesterday he was interviewed again, and when asked he said ‘if I was in the same position again, I’d do the same thing (take 4 min 10 sec).’ That’s unacceptable IMO. Many tournaments are looking for 60 seconds for the first player, and 40 seconds for other players thereafter for a given shot (tee, 2nd shot, 3rd, etc.) All PGA tour pros know that, or should. Any player who can’t tell the difference between 60 seconds and 4+ minutes is lying - JB’s first interview he said ‘he didn’t realize how long he was taking.’ I hope the PGA takes a more proactive approach to slow play, as the European tour has.

 

Yes, that's one hell of an apology...

[manku]

I think this whole conversation would not be happening if he had actually gone for the green in two...what infuriates most people is that he wasn't trying to win (that's why we watch these guys...not to cash top ten checks!).

 

Again, to repeat what others have said, the round would still have taken 5:57 instead of 6:00 had he taken a minute instead of four...having played long rounds in the past, they are effectively the same.

[DrSchteeve]

Here is JB explaining it today at the WM.

 

http://www.golfchann...s-delay-torrey/

 

Anyone with even a smidgeon of sympathy for JB, or that thinks he's going to change anything absent external pressure, needs to watch this. It's almost as excruciating as the original 4 plus minutes over the shot. A 7 minute interview with 6 plus minutes of JB saying the same thing, over, and over, and over, and over....and over.

[jmkenn0]

They would never do this, but put a shot clock on them on TV.... It doesn't have to be on the course, but it would give a better indication of who is super-slow, and pressure the tour into doing something (maybe). Or maybe more importantly, I'm sure Srixon (or whoever JB's sponsors are) would love to see their logo all over Social Media with a clock in the bottom of the screen with a big red flashing "4:10".

[Sean2]

I think the last time a slow play penalty was assessed on the PGA Tour was 1995.

 

Besides, some of these guys aren't slow players...they are "deliberate". lol