Playing golf in Vancouver Canada (NO POLITICS!)

[Golfnuck]

7 hours ago, IcemanYVR said:

Would that $75,000 at VGC for example be refundable or transferable if you became too old to golf or moved away? Would that apply at the other big privates as well or is it one and done and you never see the initiation fee again?

 

Unfortunately it is one and done.  This is the case with every private club in the lower mainland and probably in BC.  I am not aware of any "equity" type clubs here whereby the membership can be resold or transferred for a fee.

 

The closest to a refundable membership was when Swaneset first opened and they had a refundable class of membership where the original initiation fee could be refunded (without interest) after 20 or 25 years I believe.  i did not chose that membership when I joined and I left the initiation fee when I quit the club.

[IcemanYVR]

1 hour ago, Golfnuck said:

 

Unfortunately it is one and done.  This is the case with every private club in the lower mainland and probably in BC.  I am not aware of any "equity" type clubs here whereby the membership can be resold or transferred for a fee.

 

The closest to a refundable membership was when Swaneset first opened and they had a refundable class of membership where the original initiation fee could be refunded (without interest) after 20 or 25 years I believe.  i did not chose that membership when I joined and I left the initiation fee when I quit the club.

Thanks. Was just curious. It’s a big “investment” if you want to play private in BC. 

[Golfnuck]

13 hours ago, IcemanYVR said:

Thanks. Was just curious. It’s a big “investment” if you want to play private in BC. 

 

The only way I could justify it is to amortize the cost over the expected years I could comfortable play.   I joined in my late 40's and figured that I could play comfortably to my mid 70's so I amortized the cost over 25 years.

 

That is a fixed one time cost.  What you need to be aware of are 1) the potential increase in the monthly dues and 2) the risk of an assessment.  If you are joining a private club you need to study their financial statements and even then it may be worthwhile to ask to speak to the Chair of Finance on the Board.  Depending on how popular the club is that request may be rejected but a good Board should encourage this as it gives another Board member a chance to interact with a potential new member.

 

I think the popularity of public golf has reached its plateau for this cycle and demand will drop significantly over the next 5 years.

[Treats]

A common theme (with Pagoda & Westwood Plateau) is both are a pain to drive to, for a good portion of the population/residents in the GVRD.

Pagoda too far away.

Westwood...the Lougheed Hwy at many times is conjested.

 

If indeed, both do become private clubs...I can't see too many members say:

"I'll just head over to the club (from their homes or after work) to get a quick 9 holes in and/or go to practice.

[The Beav]

Yeah for sure.  Metro Van is basically "getting larger" from end to end as traffic and congestion increase.  Crazy how long it can take just to get through some key bottlenecks (like Lougheed hwy). 

 

One of the main reasons why I've not joined a lower tier private is because of where I live. None of the courses I could afford would be nearby or conveniently located for me. 

[Golfnuck]

"A common theme (with Pagoda & Westwood Plateau) is both are a pain to drive to, for a good portion of the population/residents in the GVRD.

Pagoda too far away.

Westwood...the Lougheed Hwy at many times is conjested."

 

I think you need to consider the background of both the company investing in the courses and the target members they are looking for.

 

The company is Korean based and the target members are retired wealthy Asians (mostly Korean and mainland Chinese).

 

At VGC we have seen an influx of new Asian members and they play a LOT of golf (like daily) because they are relatively younger, fit and wealthy enough to be retired.  They love golf.

 

Most people are not aware that at VGC we currently have round limits so each category of members have a limit of total rounds they can play.  Yes this is very unusual for a private club and we are likely the only club in BC to have this.  I think they are 125 rounds for full play and all other categories are 75 rounds between April and September (the busy season).  Some members will blow thru their allocated rounds in 3 months.  Those members will happily sign up for another private club memberships at Westwood or Langley to expand their available rounds as all the other private clubs (Point Grey, Marine, Capilano, Seymour) have long wait lists.

 

As they are retired, the traffic to get to Westwood is not really an issue.  Now the Pagoda course that is a bit far away.

Edited January 23 by Golfnuck

[unskinnybop99]

On 1/23/2025 at 8:30 AM, Golfnuck said:

"A common theme (with Pagoda & Westwood Plateau) is both are a pain to drive to, for a good portion of the population/residents in the GVRD.

Pagoda too far away.

Westwood...the Lougheed Hwy at many times is conjested."

 

I think you need to consider the background of both the company investing in the courses and the target members they are looking for.

 

The company is Korean based and the target members are retired wealthy Asians (mostly Korean and mainland Chinese).

 

At VGC we have seen an influx of new Asian members and they play a LOT of golf (like daily) because they are relatively younger, fit and wealthy enough to be retired.  They love golf.

 

Most people are not aware that at VGC we currently have round limits so each category of members have a limit of total rounds they can play.  Yes this is very unusual for a private club and we are likely the only club in BC to have this.  I think they are 125 rounds for full play and all other categories are 75 rounds between April and September (the busy season).  Some members will blow thru their allocated rounds in 3 months.  Those members will happily sign up for another private club memberships at Westwood or Langley to expand their available rounds as all the other private clubs (Point Grey, Marine, Capilano, Seymour) have long wait lists.

 

As they are retired, the traffic to get to Westwood is not really an issue.  Now the Pagoda course that is a bit far away.

Round limits....that's interesting. Members are ok with this? 

[IcemanYVR]

3 minutes ago, unskinnybop99 said:

Round limits....that's interesting. Members are ok with this? 

I would not have been ok with that. When I was a member at two different courses on the Island, neither had round limits, and I was over 200 rounds both those years. 
 

I think now, that wouldn’t really be an issue, as I would certainly not spend that much time at the course now, even fully retired. 

Edited January 24 by IcemanYVR

[Golfnuck]

1 hour ago, unskinnybop99 said:

Round limits....that's interesting. Members are ok with this? 

 

Depends if you play a lot of golf or not.  I played less than 60 rounds last year.  The round limits do allow for more tee time access.  Good for me.

[Shushwap]

The next few years in golf should be interesting as the tightening of wallets when it comes to golf seems to be starting 

This year they didn't sell out of the kelowna trail passes.. you used to have to line up 2 hours before hand to have a chance at getting anything..l this year there was no line up

 

I purchase most of my golf in the winter for the following season as the shuswap courses run deals on passes

Salmon arm $80 includes cart 

Shuswap national $80 cart 

Talking rock went up this year I think they were $95

It's usually my little secret about the passes as there is no advertisement

The last few months I have been bombarded with adds for all the shuswap courses on Facebook and Instagram 

Especially the run up before xmas... 

Compare that with kelowna pricing at $188 at tower... okanagan club is around that as well 

I usually play with 3 or 4 guys... thats a $400 savings to make the drive 

I'm sure you can see where we all play lol 

Some will say ohhh the drive... who cares..we all commute together usually ...I can sit at home all day staring at the wife or I can spend the day having some laughs with the boys...

It allows us to have 2 or 3 beers on the course and not have to worry about driving after 

Salmon arm is nice.. national is OK.. talking rock was beautiful before the fires 

I picked up some afternoon rounds for $70 at another course as well 

Plus i split a game pack with a friend 

I'm locked and loaded for 25.. I just need spring to arrive 

 

[Treats]

On 1/24/2025 at 11:17 AM, Golfnuck said:

 

Depends if you play a lot of golf or not.  I played less than 60 rounds last year.  The round limits do allow for more tee time access.  Good for me.

This was a fairly significant decision.

So did the BoD and/or mgmt team create the new policy or was this taken to a 67%+ membership vote for the change.

[Golfnuck]

20 hours ago, Treats said:

This was a fairly significant decision.

So did the BoD and/or mgmt team create the new policy or was this taken to a 67%+ membership vote for the change.

 

It started during COVID when everyone wanted to play all the time.  All the work at home folks were at the course.  Lots of the guys who worked for HO based in Toronto were able to play all afternoon.  Then add to that all the retired members that were tired of being coup up at home.  It was crazy.  During COVID we were not the only private club to enact round restrictions.  However we are the only club to still have them.

 

Playing privileges are not part of the Bylaws and are defined within policies so no votes are needed.  Of course if it was not supported by a majority of the members a resolution could be brought up at the AGM.  It is supported by the majority of the members from what I can tell.  Personally I do not believe it belongs in a private club and is not a good "look" for the club.  What do I know?

Edited January 26 by Golfnuck

[Golfnuck]

Shushwap just posted that it looks like golf demand may slowing down in the interior, at least outside of Kelowna.  This is based on advanced purchases of various passes.

 

I had long predicted that demand for golf will slow down and I wonder if we are beginning to see signs of this.

 

At VGC we let in a whole bunch of new members from our waitlist so right now (just before spring when demand should be the greatest) we have zero people on the full play waitlist.

[Treats]

4 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

Shushwap just posted that it looks like golf demand may slowing down in the interior, at least outside of Kelowna.  This is based on advanced purchases of various passes.

 

I had long predicted that demand for golf will slow down and I wonder if we are beginning to see signs of this.

 

Outside of the 5 muni's.

I think tee sheet demand during the week has slowed down a bit at other courses.

Weekend tee times still remain fairly robust at public tracks.

 

I think retail sales are also down? (clubs, clothing, shoes, etc) 

[Treats]

4 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

At VGC we let in a whole bunch of new members from our waitlist so right now (just before spring when demand should be the greatest) we have zero people on the full play waitlist.

I believe you mentioned that the VGC's waitlist intake stopped at 80 at the height of Covid demand.

 

Approximately, how many full play and intermediate members are there?

 

Does VGC have a lot of snowbirds, that helps ease the winter tee sheets when there is limited daylight?

 

Richmond G&CC and Semiahmoo have been advertising on FB for memberships for quite some time.

 

I believe Bald Eagle (Point Roberts) might open in 2025. Same with Belmont.

[Golfnuck]

2 hours ago, Treats said:

I believe you mentioned that the VGC's waitlist intake stopped at 80 at the height of Covid demand.

 

..........

 

I believe you mentioned that the VGC's waitlist intake stopped at 80 at the height of Covid demand.  - I think it stopped at 60.  We went thru a whole bunch of changes to the membership categories.  The only thing I know it that currently there is no-one on the full play waitlist so if anyone wants to join ............

 

Approximately, how many full play and intermediate members are there?  - I will have to try and find out.  There has been a lot of changes to the membership categories and also the people that can join intermediates is now restricted to only those that have a directly relative who is a full member.  

 

Does VGC have a lot of snowbirds, that helps ease the winter tee sheets when there is limited daylight?  - Yes but the tee sheets are still pretty packed on the weekends.  The club is crazy busy.  I remember when I first joined years ago I never booked a tee time unless it was on the weekends.  Even on a sunny Friday afternoon my group could get on without having to book days in advance via a ballot.  Those days disappeared after 2017 or so.

[knock it close]

On 1/26/2025 at 10:04 AM, Golfnuck said:

Shushwap just posted that it looks like golf demand may slowing down in the interior, at least outside of Kelowna.  This is based on advanced purchases of various passes.

 

I had long predicted that demand for golf will slow down and I wonder if we are beginning to see signs of this.

 

At VGC we let in a whole bunch of new members from our waitlist so right now (just before spring when demand should be the greatest) we have zero people on the full play waitlist.

Wait so VGC let in members from their waitlist while maintaining round caps? Now like you the round cap probably wouldn't affect me but seems counterintuitive when trying to make the tee sheet more accessible. But I guess maybe that was used rather than a higher increase on dues as costs continue to rise.

 

I know member rounds have increased at most places post covid, it will be interesting to see if that's here to stay or if the guys that were playing 35 times, that are now playing 65 times will drop back down to 40 or so. 

[Golfnuck]

4 hours ago, knock it close said:

I know member rounds have increased at most places post covid, it will be interesting to see if that's here to stay or if the guys that were playing 35 times, that are now playing 65 times will drop back down to 40 or so. 

 

This is the big unknown.  However i believe the elevated rounds will continue for VGC because of the infusion of new members.  I remember when I first joined not only was I excited to play at the club I also wanted to make sure that "I got my money's worth".  

 

Will the elevated demand for golf in general stay?  That is a more complex question and well above my pay grade to fully understand.

[Treats]

6 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

Will the elevated demand for golf in general stay?  That is a more complex question and well above my pay grade to fully understand.

I'm sure you've either glanced at or read Boom, Bust & Echo by Dr. David Foot of U of T. (economist & demographer) 

I think many are unaware that the "true" Baby Boom bulge occurred from approximately 1957-1966ish....and not just after the end of WW2 (see attached age pyramid).

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/as-sa/98-200-X/2021003/98-200-x2021003-eng.cfm

 

These people are 59-68. Some of these people are still working FT, but preparing for retirement soon.

When they retire and with their accumulated wealth...especially the top 10%....they will only help to clog up the private & public course tee sheets.

 

Our current medical system is so strained nowadays...wait till the above bulge gets into their 70's. Ouch.

 

I'm not fully accurate on this. Supposdely, 95% of one's lifetime medical expenses are spent in the last few years of our lives...I believe this is also skewed by the very expensive costs of LTC's/nursing homes/extended hospital stays.

 

I think you said, previously. After a medical scare, you said you had no issue burning through some money for your bucket list while you were still healthy enough to do so.

 

Ok...sorry for the doom & gloom....let's all hit the links this week.

[Golfnuck]

10 hours ago, Treats said:

These people are 59-68. Some of these people are still working FT, but preparing for retirement soon.

When they retire and with their accumulated wealth...especially the top 10%....they will only help to clog up the private & public course tee sheets.

 

 

There are lots of 55 - 60 year olds that are retired already at the club.  For those that are working, they seem to have lots of time to golf at least a couple of times or more during the week.  Our men's "night" on Wednesday is so full that it is really a men's "day" event.  

 

You are correct about the level of wealth for the boomers.  They hit all the sweet spots in terms of the stock market and the real estate market.
 

[Golfnuck]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:22 PM, Treats said:

 

I think you said, previously. After a medical scare, you said you had no issue burning through some money for your bucket list while you were still healthy enough to do so.

 

 

Yes I have checked off some of my bucket list golf trips.  The most memorable was playing the Old Course.

 

I don't think anything can top that for me  ......  except if I had birdied the 18th.

 

My putt for birdie  ......  at least I didn't 3 putt.

 

Edit to add - I was super relieved on the 18th, that my drive or 2nd shot did not end up .....  on the road, hitting a car, hitting a person, hitting a building etc etc.  All that stuff is really close on the right side with zero barriers to stop an errant shot.  That is one thing that I did not anticipate.

 

 

Edited January 29 by Golfnuck
Added picture

[myspinonit]

On 1/26/2025 at 1:56 PM, Treats said:

Outside of the 5 muni's.

I think tee sheet demand during the week has slowed down a bit at other courses.

Weekend tee times still remain fairly robust at public tracks.

 

I think retail sales are also down? (clubs, clothing, shoes, etc) 

Wonder if we will see even more price differences in new gear after Feb 1 ?

 

 I came close to presumably "locking in" a pre-order price order on a G440 #4 fairway ($559 plus tax) sight unseen. Then some rare sanity of my budget and golf needs prevailed. 

[Golfnuck]

23 hours ago, myspinonit said:

Wonder if we will see even more price differences in new gear after Feb 1 ?

 

 I came close to presumably "locking in" a pre-order price order on a G440 #4 fairway ($559 plus tax) sight unseen. Then some rare sanity of my budget and golf needs prevailed. 

 

As all of these products would originate in US$ so I would be concerned about new products that are being paid for now (for example your pre order price may be increased).  I don't think retailers would adjust the price of existing inventory but they will certainly not put them on sale knowing the replacement cost is much higher.  I don't think the risk of tariffs would be the driver (haha) here but I am concerned about what the impact of all the trade tariffs would be on the CAD$.  I could be wrong maybe Canada will slap a 25% tariff on golf clubs?

Edited January 29 by Golfnuck

[myspinonit]

22 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

 

As all of these products would originate in US$ so I would be concerned about new products that are being paid for now (for example your pre order price may be increased).  I don't think retailers would adjust the price of existing inventory but they will certainly not put them on sale knowing the replacement cost is much higher.  I don't think the risk of tariffs would be the driver (haha) here but I am concerned about what the impact of all the trade tariffs would be on the CAD$.  I could be wrong maybe Canada will slap a 25% tariff on golf clubs?

 The duty exemption on golf equipment now is a result of the current US-Canada agreement.  The exchange rate is really the cost difference right now. 

 

I also agree and had figured that unlikely a pre-order price would hold if that occurs. Unless perhaps in the  event my “pre-order”  was already in Canada and was awaiting the official embargo date and the retailer chose to honour the original price for my paid pre-order.  

 

Even so, an interesting contract law question perhaps as I would have accepted an offer for sale at price X and paid that price at time of pre-order.  

 

Moot for me anyway. I got in the GolfTown door first thing yesterday and regripped my existing clubs in the sale with new midsize and am looking forward to the new feel in my old hands.  Even with 40% off, with the $4.50 per club install charge, I feel a bit guilty and probably should have just supported my local store (Peak) that does free installs. 

 

Edited January 30 by myspinonit

[myspinonit]

However (referring to my post above) I am glad I decided to go to GT yesterday. I did a great score I think t yesterday, at the North Van GolfTown. Not sure if stock  applies to all stores.  GolfTown bought out the remaining 2024 Zero Restriction Presidents Cup stock. 

These items (rain jacket short and long sleeve,  mid layers and hoodies)  were on sale for just under $40 each. I bought several, all with the International logos. (There are also ones with US Team logos.)  

 

The original price tags shown on these purchased items were from low $200 to high $300’s “Member Price” (Montreal GC Member Price???).  While these were probably inflated original souvenir prices on an already pricey brand, the Zero Restriction site (US) lists these still roughly the original tag range,  hundreds of $ each, all in US $ from what I can see. 

 

Just the day before I had donated to the Sally Ann a couple of Footjoy windshirts that were now too large so this was an extra  nice serendipity. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by myspinonit

[Treats]

On 1/28/2025 at 8:17 AM, Golfnuck said:

 

There are lots of 55 - 60 year olds that are retired already at the club.  For those that are working, they seem to have lots of time to golf at least a couple of times or more during the week.  Our men's "night" on Wednesday is so full that it is really a men's "day" event.  

 

You are correct about the level of wealth for the boomers.  They hit all the sweet spots in terms of the stock market and the real estate market.
 

In the last 5 years, there are so many people of all ages that are out on the golf course who s/b "working" or in the "office".

IMO...lots of "slacking off"

[myspinonit]

1 hour ago, Treats said:

In the last 5 years, there are so many people of all ages that are out on the golf course who s/b "working" or in the "office".

IMO...lots of "slacking off"

Maybe they are in a career that allows varied hours and/or offsite project work that does not require standard hours ?

 

I used to play golf with  a friend who sold real estate and she usually kept her phone on during the round.  But (I guess unless it was urgent) she would usually say  ”I’m on a course today. Can I call you back tomorrow?” 🙂

Edited January 30 by myspinonit

[Golfnuck]

Golf in the USA.

 

With the upcoming risk of tariffs and the expected ongoing trade issues for the next 4 years, I am so glad that I did my Pebble Beach trip last year when the dollar was somewhat reasonable.

 

Will the FX impact your trips next year?

 

I am thinking of doing Ireland or Portugal vs visiting the US for the next few years.  I have already cancelled a trip to see the new course at Gamble Sands.  Instead I am going to Banff and Jasper.  Was extremely lucky to snag some really good campsites and times last Friday.  Sites for 35 foot plus rigs are limited in the National Parks.

 

What about those that play in Bellingham regularly?  Given how expensive golf is in GVRD maybe it will not have a real impact.

Edited January 31 by Golfnuck

[myspinonit]

6 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

Golf in the USA.

 

With the upcoming risk of tariffs and the expected ongoing trade issues for the next 4 years, I am so glad that I did my Pebble Beach trip last year when the dollar was somewhat reasonable.

 

Will the FX impact your trips next year?

 

I am thinking of doing Ireland or Portugal vs visiting the US for the next few years.  I have already cancelled a trip to see the new course at Gamble Sands.  Instead I am going to Banff and Jasper.  Was extremely lucky to snag some really good campsites and times last Friday.  Sites for 35 foot plus rigs are limited in the National Parks.

 

What about those that play in Bellingham regularly?  Given how expensive golf is in GVRD maybe it will not have a real impact.

 Our hobby lately seems to be booking and cancelling trips and the current $ and unrest  has exacerbated that. We already had cancelled Palm Springs for December largely from:

a) been there done that  a few times recently and

b) (mostly) just plain expense, and  golf-wise my wife really doesn’t enjoy it  much.   So we thought we would look at  Canada- only travel and have booked  a week on Van Island in June. 

 

But still wanting some Fall or winter getaway, not great options above the 49th,  we had a  cruise to Hawaii cruise booked. But this morning before the hammer came down we cancelled it. Giving the name of “47” as the cancel reason I  suggested they might want to make that a category as I expect they will get a lot of CDN cancels.  

 

But even after hammer came down today we decided we really miss Maui (last visit was late 2019 just before Covid) and booked two weeks in October. Though probably even more bucks than PS, we don’t feel badly supporting the Maui folks  after their rough ride. My wife even gets excited to play a few of the "locals “ courses there again, especially Pukalani and it will be fun for us to do Maui Nui again and the real locals course, Waiehu. It is also a significant birthday for me a year from now so this might be my early celebration for that and the last trip to US for a while.   I missed another significant birthday trip  five years ago as it was right in Covid lockdown so this will be a double treat after six years away.   

 

That could change I guess if the dollar really tanks in the next 7 months before we hit the free cancel deadline.  

Edited January 31 by myspinonit

[unskinnybop99]

6 hours ago, Golfnuck said:

Golf in the USA.

 

With the upcoming risk of tariffs and the expected ongoing trade issues for the next 4 years, I am so glad that I did my Pebble Beach trip last year when the dollar was somewhat reasonable.

 

Will the FX impact your trips next year?

 

I am thinking of doing Ireland or Portugal vs visiting the US for the next few years.  I have already cancelled a trip to see the new course at Gamble Sands.  Instead I am going to Banff and Jasper.  Was extremely lucky to snag some really good campsites and times last Friday.  Sites for 35 foot plus rigs are limited in the National Parks.

 

What about those that play in Bellingham regularly?  Given how expensive golf is in GVRD maybe it will not have a real impact.

I really wish Homestead would open. They are involve in a massive lawsuit. I hope things work out for those poor homeowners. That course was my go to whenever in the states....great value when it was in good shape.