Golf Swing Without Active “Shallowing”...?

[PepsiDuck]

I will preface that prior to about a year or two ago, I had never been exposed to the concept of “shallowing” on the downswing; and now it seems like the latest obsession in golf.

 

Is it necessarily wrong to make a backswing that gets you to a position at the top where you are already “shallow”? It seems all these various shallowing transition moves can potentially introduce all sorts of bad effects if done even slightly incorrectly, especially for a lower body convulsion artist like myself.

 

It seems that going directly into a “shallow” position at the top would require a very flat underplane backswing, bordering on inside takeaway...? But from that position at the top, wouldn’t it be easy enough to just swing the arms back in front of the body (using one of the “unstucking” moves) and call it a day?

[Jim Waldron]

I will preface that prior to about a year or two ago, I had never been exposed to the concept of "shallowing" on the downswing; and now it seems like the latest obsession in golf.

 

Is it necessarily wrong to make a backswing that gets you to a position at the top where you are already "shallow"? It seems all these various shallowing transition moves can potentially introduce all sorts of bad effects if done even slightly incorrectly, especially for a lower body convulsion artist like myself.

 

It seems that going directly into a "shallow" position at the top would require a very flat underplane backswing, bordering on inside takeaway...? But from that position at the top, wouldn't it be easy enough to just swing the arms back in front of the body (using one of the "unstucking" moves) and call it a day?

 

I am not a fan of manipulating the arms to get "unstuck" on Transition. Why not just prevent yourself from "getting stuck" in the first place, ie on the backswing?

 

Lots of misinformation in the current en vogue "shallowing" fad, in my opinion.

 

I see students all the time who tried to do that move via self-directed Youtube and forum learning and royally screwed-up their swings.

 

I teach two kinds of shallowing: Basic and Advanced. The Advanced version is quite difficult to do well, and requires above average athletic ability to master to a high level of skill, and requires a lot of practice time, ie reps. So I only teach it to students who are already good ballstrikers. The main advantage is that you can rotate at a faster rpm speed with a much more open chest at impact, so a distance advantage.

 

Basic is required for most golfers, because of human anatomy, the shaft will steepen about ten degrees or so last third of the backswing. So need to shallow ten degrees to compensate for that.

 

That will happen mostly naturally due to lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch, so is not done at all with any kind of arm manipulation.

[George1174]

It is actually counter-productive to have a shallow backswing because you will almost never return the club on the same shaft angle. It is in the nature of muscles that they will react to stretching by contracting. So if you swing back on a rather shallow plane to an extent that the internal rotators in the shouder are already stretched the transition will put just enough extra load on them that they react by contracting and you will stand the shaft up.

It certainly seems easier to swing back shallow and return the club that way but when have you ever encountered a movement in the golf swing that was an intuitive move? Actually the flying "Nicklaus" elbow works very well if you have the timing to get the elbow back in front of the right hip.

[PepsiDuck]

It is actually counter-productive to have a shallow backswing because you will almost never return the club on the same shaft angle. It is in the nature of muscles that they will react to stretching by contracting. So if you swing back on a rather shallow plane to an extent that the internal rotators in the shouder are already stretched the transition will put just enough extra load on them that they react by contracting and you will stand the shaft up.

It certainly seems easier to swing back shallow and return the club that way but when have you ever encountered a movement in the golf swing that was an intuitive move? Actually the flying "Nicklaus" elbow works very well if you have the timing to get the elbow back in front of the right hip.

 

So the way I’m initially visualizing it is that you would keep the shaft on (or near) the address shaft plane so that your arm plane would have to stay at or below the shoulder plane...? And if you use one of Monte’s transition unstucking moves, e.g., left arm off the chest or separate the left shoulder from the chin, there’s no way the shaft can stand up on the downswing...

[PepsiDuck]

I am not a fan of manipulating the arms to get "unstuck" on Transition. Why not just prevent yourself from "getting stuck" in the first place, ie on the backswing?

 

Lots of misinformation in the current en vogue "shallowing" fad, in my opinion.

 

I see students all the time who tried to do that move via self-directed Youtube and forum learning and royally screwed-up their swings.

 

I teach two kinds of shallowing: Basic and Advanced. The Advanced version is quite difficult to do well, and requires above average athletic ability to master to a high level of skill, and requires a lot of practice time, ie reps. So I only teach it to students who are already good ballstrikers. The main advantage is that you can rotate at a faster rpm speed with a much more open chest at impact, so a distance advantage.

 

Basic is required for most golfers, because of human anatomy, the shaft will steepen about ten degrees or so last third of the backswing. So need to shallow ten degrees to compensate for that.

 

That will happen mostly naturally due to lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch, so is not done at all with any kind of arm manipulation.

 

A better backswing would certainly be an ideal approach...

 

My limited experience with any kind of lower body transition usually results in my left shoulder opening too early and the clubhead kicking out with the shaft getting vertical (shaft bisecting the shoulder on the downswing certainly spells disaster...). The only thing that has ever remotely worked was to feel that my left shoulder was glued to my chin on the downswing until it was literally “ripped away” by the force of my turn. And that feel wasn’t always a guarantee either...

[tyorke1]

If you watch the tour some shallow some don't or only do it slightly, watch JT , Speith, Day . Swings like Poulter's or JT very nearly mirror the backswing and downswing ,lot's of ways to swing. If tension gets in the hands during the transition shallowing the club gets difficult, soft hands helps,

[PepsiDuck]

Well after doing some more research and reading on this, it led me to the whole one vs two plane swing debate...which definitely doesn’t need to be rehashed here and anywhere else.

 

But I definitely have a preference between the two...and current swing absolutely does not align with that preference...

[tyorke1]

as Jim said, vertical backswing can help shallow easier. shaft vertical then lay it down and rotate or normal backswing hard lower body movement soft hands.

[WILDTHING]

I think the shallowing move during transition seems to be in vogue following-on from some of the observations in Sasho McKenzies old research back in 2012 (although there may be newer stuff flying around 3D AMM data). It seems to revolve around the creation of a 'Moment of Force' that can be used by the lead arm to help square the club more easily as the downswing progresses.

 

Sasho's model was using a lead arm so I think its still a mystery about what the right arm is doing to help (if any) in the squaring of the club. I suspect if you are someone who swings quite dominantly with the lead arm but have difficulty squaring the club at impact , maybe a shallowing move might help.

 

I am not very flexible and don't have a very active pivot or strong forearms and have to use my rear arm to help square the clubface (whether I shallow the clubshaft or not).

[Llortamaisey]

I remember a shallowing fad when I first started playing in the early 1990’s. I’m sure it’s much older than that.

[tyorke1]

shawn webb just posted a great instagram view of the transition from bk to start the downswing.

[PepsiDuck]

I think the shallowing move during transition seems to be in vogue following-on from some of the observations in Sasho McKenzies old research back in 2012 (although there may be newer stuff flying around 3D AMM data). It seems to revolve around the creation of a 'Moment of Force' that can be used by the lead arm to help square the club more easily as the downswing progresses.

 

Sasho's model was using a lead arm so I think its still a mystery about what the right arm is doing to help (if any) in the squaring of the club. I suspect if you are someone who swings quite dominantly with the lead arm but have difficulty squaring the club at impact , maybe a shallowing move might help.

 

I am not very flexible and don't have a very active pivot or strong forearms and have to use my rear arm to help square the clubface (whether I shallow the clubshaft or not).

 

So my initial thought would be, why employ a backswing which un-squares the clubface and forces you to square it in transition and downswing? Is there any mechanical advantage that the vertical backswing provides that makes it worthwhile to go through these shallowing motions on the way down?

 

Not trying to be argumentative...just trying to understand through all my frustrations...

[oikos1]

Pepsi, Pepsi, Pepsi. What are you doing? I thought your instructor told you not to play around here anymore. :)

[Jim Waldron]

I think the shallowing move during transition seems to be in vogue following-on from some of the observations in Sasho McKenzies old research back in 2012 (although there may be newer stuff flying around 3D AMM data). It seems to revolve around the creation of a 'Moment of Force' that can be used by the lead arm to help square the club more easily as the downswing progresses.

 

Sasho's model was using a lead arm so I think its still a mystery about what the right arm is doing to help (if any) in the squaring of the club. I suspect if you are someone who swings quite dominantly with the lead arm but have difficulty squaring the club at impact , maybe a shallowing move might help.

 

I am not very flexible and don't have a very active pivot or strong forearms and have to use my rear arm to help square the clubface (whether I shallow the clubshaft or not).

 

Yeah, that is one of the "fads" I was referencing. I remember laughing out loud when the Sasho study first came out since every good teacher I knew already understood that shallow = easier to square the face from momentum. Pretty old school stuff and easy to figure out in about 5 minutes of empirical testing. Opposite also true - steep = much harder to square the face, which is why high caps who OTT almost always hit the ball with an open face (although its only one reason why of several).

[carrera]

shawn webb just posted a great instagram view of the transition from bk to start the downswing.

 

[dap]

I will preface that prior to about a year or two ago, I had never been exposed to the concept of “shallowing” on the downswing; and now it seems like the latest obsession in golf.

 

Is it necessarily wrong to make a backswing that gets you to a position at the top where you are already “shallow”? It seems all these various shallowing transition moves can potentially introduce all sorts of bad effects if done even slightly incorrectly, especially for a lower body convulsion artist like myself.

 

It seems that going directly into a “shallow” position at the top would require a very flat underplane backswing, bordering on inside takeaway...? But from that position at the top, wouldn’t it be easy enough to just swing the arms back in front of the body (using one of the “unstucking” moves) and call it a day?

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

[RBImGuy]

shawn webb just posted a great instagram view of the transition from bk to start the downswing.

 

https://www.instagra.../p/BhCmtP4gex1/

 

if you study broken mechanics you learn broken mechanics.

I met golfers that struggled for decades and then suddenly seen the light

 

GolfGod indeed

[powerfade66]

shawn webb just posted a great instagram view of the transition from bk to start the downswing.

 

https://www.instagra.../p/BhCmtP4gex1/

 

if you study broken mechanics you learn broken mechanics.

I met golfers that struggled for decades and then suddenly seen the light

 

GolfGod indeed

 

Praise Be To God

[PepsiDuck]

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

 

So my question is...why allow the club to steepen enough during the takeaway and backswing that you need to flatten at all? I am aware that the concepts of the one and two plane swings are essentially extreme caricatures and that we all fall somewhere in between...

 

What benefit does a steeper (i.e., club shaft) backswing provide?

[WILDTHING]

I think the shallowing move during transition seems to be in vogue following-on from some of the observations in Sasho McKenzies old research back in 2012 (although there may be newer stuff flying around 3D AMM data). It seems to revolve around the creation of a 'Moment of Force' that can be used by the lead arm to help square the club more easily as the downswing progresses.

 

Sasho's model was using a lead arm so I think its still a mystery about what the right arm is doing to help (if any) in the squaring of the club. I suspect if you are someone who swings quite dominantly with the lead arm but have difficulty squaring the club at impact , maybe a shallowing move might help.

 

I am not very flexible and don't have a very active pivot or strong forearms and have to use my rear arm to help square the clubface (whether I shallow the clubshaft or not).

 

Yeah, that is one of the "fads" I was referencing. I remember laughing out loud when the Sasho study first came out since every good teacher I knew already understood that shallow = easier to square the face from momentum. Pretty old school stuff and easy to figure out in about 5 minutes of empirical testing. Opposite also true - steep = much harder to square the face, which is why high caps who OTT almost always hit the ball with an open face (although its only one reason why of several).

 

Scientific research is fine but unless all the variables are observed together and measured (over a large sample of different setups and actions) you can only assume cause and effect. I suppose some of the findings could be useful for helping extreme fault issues but isn't there always a danger that fixing one symptom of a root cause could create other symptoms or make existing ones worse? Then your in danger of snowballing into a sea of symptoms.

 

I still think there needs to be more detailed knowledge about what the right arm/hand/fingers are doing in the golf swing to make things a bit clearer.

[WILDTHING]

I think the shallowing move during transition seems to be in vogue following-on from some of the observations in Sasho McKenzies old research back in 2012 (although there may be newer stuff flying around 3D AMM data). It seems to revolve around the creation of a 'Moment of Force' that can be used by the lead arm to help square the club more easily as the downswing progresses.

 

Sasho's model was using a lead arm so I think its still a mystery about what the right arm is doing to help (if any) in the squaring of the club. I suspect if you are someone who swings quite dominantly with the lead arm but have difficulty squaring the club at impact , maybe a shallowing move might help.

 

I am not very flexible and don't have a very active pivot or strong forearms and have to use my rear arm to help square the clubface (whether I shallow the clubshaft or not).

 

So my initial thought would be, why employ a backswing which un-squares the clubface and forces you to square it in transition and downswing? Is there any mechanical advantage that the vertical backswing provides that makes it worthwhile to go through these shallowing motions on the way down?

 

Not trying to be argumentative...just trying to understand through all my frustrations...

 

You don't have to unsquare the clubface (to the club path) if you have a very strong grip and limit the amount of lead arm pronation in the backswing (if you find that golf swing action strain free). Personally, I find it impossible to do for my body , especially in the follow-through where I have no choice but to allow my left elbow to just chicken wing (a real strain on my body).

 

With regards going from vertical to shallow , I don't know all the disadvantages vs advantages but Sasho's experiments points to an advantage of making the lead forearm supination aspect of your downswing easier (ie. passive with less effort if you allow your lead wrist to ulnar deviate into impact).

 

PS. When I mean going from vertical to shallow , I am talking about the clubshaft shallowing out below the hand plane.

[dap]

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

 

So my question is...why allow the club to steepen enough during the takeaway and backswing that you need to flatten at all? I am aware that the concepts of the one and two plane swings are essentially extreme caricatures and that we all fall somewhere in between...

 

What benefit does a steeper (i.e., club shaft) backswing provide?

A steep takeaway and backswing is not imperative in my opinion. I certainly don't see Hogan or Sergio as having a steep backswing. They are not super flat like a lot of high handicappers in the takeaway but they are far from steep.

 

There are some instructors that like to see a steep shaft halfway into the backswing but I don't see it as having any mechanical advantage.

[Fort Worth Pro]

I will preface that prior to about a year or two ago, I had never been exposed to the concept of “shallowing” on the downswing; and now it seems like the latest obsession in golf.

 

Is it necessarily wrong to make a backswing that gets you to a position at the top where you are already “shallow”? It seems all these various shallowing transition moves can potentially introduce all sorts of bad effects if done even slightly incorrectly, especially for a lower body convulsion artist like myself.

 

It seems that going directly into a “shallow” position at the top would require a very flat underplane backswing, bordering on inside takeaway...? But from that position at the top, wouldn’t it be easy enough to just swing the arms back in front of the body (using one of the “unstucking” moves) and call it a day?

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

ryan Moore and nick price are the only two that jump to mind. Think the exaggerated move is way overdone and misunderstood. More than anything I believe many of misinterpreted what sasho said.

[RichieHunt]

So my question is...why allow the club to steepen enough during the takeaway and backswing that you need to flatten at all? I am aware that the concepts of the one and two plane swings are essentially extreme caricatures and that we all fall somewhere in between...

 

What benefit does a steeper (i.e., club shaft) backswing provide?

 

It's basically a result of keeping the right shoulder internally rotated.

 

That should also create the left wrist getting into extension.

 

From there, you can use the stretch-shortening cycle to basically reverse the movement in the downswing....externally rotating the right shoulder and getting the left wrist into flexion.

 

I switched from having a non-steep shaft plane in the backswing to a steep shaft plane just because for me, it was less maintenance. I could have the shaft 'on plane' and keep the right shoulder internally rotated...but every once in a while things would get out of whack and I would get laid off in the backswing and it was a total disaster and a real pain to work on diligently.

 

With the shaft more upright, if I'm making an error it will be with an across the line move and I can still hit great shots from that position. I really don't give a damn how my swing looks. If it's functional and produces effective golf shots I will take that over these pretty 'on plane' swings that don't produce anything better and are more difficult for me to maintain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[semper76fi]

There isn’t anything new here. You guys should check out The Bertholy Method. Paul Bertholy was teaching this stuff in an article he wrote for GOLF Magazine back in the mid 70’s. You can get a copy of Doug Ferreri’s book on The Bertholy Method here: http://dougferreri.com/. It’s worth every penny! 8^)

[fjk]

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

 

So my question is...why allow the club to steepen enough during the takeaway and backswing that you need to flatten at all? I am aware that the concepts of the one and two plane swings are essentially extreme caricatures and that we all fall somewhere in between...

 

What benefit does a steeper (i.e., club shaft) backswing provide?

 

The idea is that it allows the club to shallow early in the downswing so that it will steepen late and square at the bottom.

 

If you are below force plane early, then it -may- steepen and tip out the shaft early. Rickie is a good example of this IMO, he's shallow early transition and tips out early downswing.

 

Just an idea. The motion reminds me of how baseball players and tennis swings go back steep/upright relative to their handpath and then shallow coming through.

[MK7Golf21]

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

 

So my question is...why allow the club to steepen enough during the takeaway and backswing that you need to flatten at all? I am aware that the concepts of the one and two plane swings are essentially extreme caricatures and that we all fall somewhere in between...

 

What benefit does a steeper (i.e., club shaft) backswing provide?

 

ideally you don't really want a steep takeaway, more on plane, can do anything really though. Being more on plane in takeaway helps with pitching and chipping, won't be too steep or shallow.

[George1174]

It is actually counter-productive to have a shallow backswing because you will almost never return the club on the same shaft angle. It is in the nature of muscles that they will react to stretching by contracting. So if you swing back on a rather shallow plane to an extent that the internal rotators in the shouder are already stretched the transition will put just enough extra load on them that they react by contracting and you will stand the shaft up.

It certainly seems easier to swing back shallow and return the club that way but when have you ever encountered a movement in the golf swing that was an intuitive move? Actually the flying "Nicklaus" elbow works very well if you have the timing to get the elbow back in front of the right hip.

 

So the way Im initially visualizing it is that you would keep the shaft on (or near) the address shaft plane so that your arm plane would have to stay at or below the shoulder plane...? And if you use one of Montes transition unstucking moves, e.g., left arm off the chest or separate the left shoulder from the chin, theres no way the shaft can stand up on the downswing...

It‘s more or less a combination of the two swing concepts of Gankas and Monte. Just like in Monte‘s video I try to hit the ball at shoulder height except my torso is angled to the ground. That way my left arm would be neither over or under the shoulder plane.

I do lift my arms a bit higher though and try not to rotate externally before the transition. I‘m not exaggerating like Jonny Ruiz but I let the elbow fly a little bit.

[dap]

I will preface that prior to about a year or two ago, I had never been exposed to the concept of “shallowing” on the downswing; and now it seems like the latest obsession in golf.

 

Is it necessarily wrong to make a backswing that gets you to a position at the top where you are already “shallow”? It seems all these various shallowing transition moves can potentially introduce all sorts of bad effects if done even slightly incorrectly, especially for a lower body convulsion artist like myself.

 

It seems that going directly into a “shallow” position at the top would require a very flat underplane backswing, bordering on inside takeaway...? But from that position at the top, wouldn’t it be easy enough to just swing the arms back in front of the body (using one of the “unstucking” moves) and call it a day?

Guys like Sergio and Hogan are already in the process of shallowing by the time they reach the top. I can't really think of any players that are steep and across the line at the top that can get to a laid off position in transition. Jim Furyk could be an example but even he doesn't get the club as laid off in transition as Sergio.

 

If you want a laid off transition then you need to be flattening before you get to the top.

ryan Moore and nick price are the only two that jump to mind. Think the exaggerated move is way overdone and misunderstood. More than anything I believe many of misinterpreted what sasho said.

Yea I forgot about Ryan Moore. His loop is more extreme than even Furyk. I suppose my point is that it's not impossible to do but it's far easier to lay the club off in transition if you start doing it a bit earlier by the time you get to the top.

[BigEx44]

I think the shallowing move during transition seems to be in vogue following-on from some of the observations in Sasho McKenzies old research back in 2012 (although there may be newer stuff flying around 3D AMM data). It seems to revolve around the creation of a 'Moment of Force' that can be used by the lead arm to help square the club more easily as the downswing progresses.

 

Sasho's model was using a lead arm so I think its still a mystery about what the right arm is doing to help (if any) in the squaring of the club. I suspect if you are someone who swings quite dominantly with the lead arm but have difficulty squaring the club at impact , maybe a shallowing move might help.

 

I am not very flexible and don't have a very active pivot or strong forearms and have to use my rear arm to help square the clubface (whether I shallow the clubshaft or not).

 

So my initial thought would be, why employ a backswing which un-squares the clubface and forces you to square it in transition and downswing? Is there any mechanical advantage that the vertical backswing provides that makes it worthwhile to go through these shallowing motions on the way down?

 

Not trying to be argumentative...just trying to understand through all my frustrations...

 

I've never been able to make a flatter, more rotational swing work for me. So I've read lots of articles on advantages/disadvantages of vertical vs flatter swing.

I thought this was a pretty good one:

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-to-Switch-to-an-Upright-Golf-Swing-Plane-and-the-Benefits-it-Has-to-Your-Distance-and-Accuracy&id=2641721