Pepsi Duck's Golf Thread: Progress...?

[deathbymuffin]

PD, I struggle with the exact same miss and takeaway/backswing issues. Too much early wrist hinge (you essentially start your swing by hinging your right hand) and not enough c0ck, and way too flat with the shoulders. You can clearly see that your path is far right and clubhead is still working down at impact. You can get away with it on the mid-to-short irons, but you will struggle with your woods. I'm actually impressed with how well you're able to transition from that position.

 

Something that's helped me is to feel like my hands work lower and closer to my right thigh on the initial takeaway, while trying to keep the face looking at the target as long as possible. Automatically gets my shoulders turning steeper and helps the wrist cocking action happen a little more naturally.

[PepsiDuck]

Thanks everyone for the comments!

 

As everyone has mentioned in some form or another, including another reputable source, my shoulder turn is too flat. Not sure how exactly to tackle the problem, I dug into my bag of tricks on the range today and gave it a go. Before, I had been bending the right arm almost immediately on the takeaway in an effort to stay compact to the top and control my flying right elbow which has pretty much plagued my entire golfing career. I also understand that that will also tend to create the inside takeaway and flat turn, so I tried the straight right arm takeaway, ala Dan C Drill. Here's a DTL video from today, and yes, I know I'm cheating here with the Smart Ball...

 

http://youtu.be/LwIXrp5GtrI

 

I'm not sure if this is the solution, but at least it looks a little different from earlier this week...

 

PD, I struggle with the exact same miss and takeaway/backswing issues. Too much early wrist hinge (you essentially start your swing by hinging your right hand) and not enough c0ck, and way too flat with the shoulders. You can clearly see that your path is far right and clubhead is still working down at impact. You can get away with it on the mid-to-short irons, but you will struggle with your woods. I'm actually impressed with how well you're able to transition from that position.

 

Something that's helped me is to feel like my hands work lower and closer to my right thigh on the initial takeaway, while trying to keep the face looking at the target as long as possible. Automatically gets my shoulders turning steeper and helps the wrist cocking action happen a little more naturally.

 

I'd always prescribed to the Joe Dante wrist action of right wrist hinge with the left wrist doing whatever it needed to support the right wrist. Right wrist hinge has just always felt the most powerful and solid to me. But you certainly have a point that it's happening too early.

[PepsiDuck]

The problem is that his right shoulder and arms are already too much externally rotated in the back swing. There is not enough left to come down with. He should first feel more internally rotated in the back swing so that he can externally rotate in the down swing.

 

I think he could still have some ROM externally rotating the right shoulder and definitely has ROM in supinating the right forearm. If he has maxed out his ESR at P4, that's an advantage since he already has that base covered (think Hogan, not Nicklaus). Not everyone necessarily benefits from a big move from trail shoulder ISR to ESR in transition.

 

I have terrible right side external rotation, so any trail internal rotation at the top (GG) will generally be disastrous for me...

[FullOfBrushMan]

Need radial deviation. Inside = death.

[glk]

Of all the things you could change, if it were me, between now and Monte clinic I’d work on improving your transition. You slide your hips and leave your upper body behind. Leads to poor pressure transfer, ie hang back, left shoulder coming up too early , stuck , a path pushed right so depending on release you brings hooks and blocks into play. As well as you add loft. A better transition with regaining flexion better, moving laterally with left shoulder staying lower long will transfer to whatever other swings changes Monte brings to the table. Otherwise I’d go with the do nothing plan until the clinic. Just play and if you can shoot in the 70s enjoy it.

[BottleCap]

You have to fix that takeaway, you're spending so much energy trying to overcome that in transition.

[PepsiDuck]

Of all the things you could change, if it were me, between now and Monte clinic I’d work on improving your transition. You slide your hips and leave your upper body behind. Leads to poor pressure transfer, ie hang back, left shoulder coming up too early , stuck , a path pushed right so depending on release you brings hooks and blocks into play. As well as you add loft. A better transition with regaining flexion better, moving laterally with left shoulder staying lower long will transfer to whatever other swings changes Monte brings to the table. Otherwise I’d go with the do nothing plan until the clinic. Just play and if you can shoot in the 70s enjoy it.

 

That’s a good point about my lateral hip slide...I *feel* like I’m only externally rotating my left knee, but video clearly shows my hips slide a couple inches forward. Perhaps the GG feel of rotating the knee and sitting back on the right side will help to correct that...?

 

You have to fix that takeaway, you're spending so much energy trying to overcome that in transition.

 

Ever since I started working on all of this four years ago, we’ve only worked on transition...so I know nothing else.

[glk]

Of all the things you could change, if it were me, between now and Monte clinic I’d work on improving your transition. You slide your hips and leave your upper body behind. Leads to poor pressure transfer, ie hang back, left shoulder coming up too early , stuck , a path pushed right so depending on release you brings hooks and blocks into play. As well as you add loft. A better transition with regaining flexion better, moving laterally with left shoulder staying lower long will transfer to whatever other swings changes Monte brings to the table. Otherwise I’d go with the do nothing plan until the clinic. Just play and if you can shoot in the 70s enjoy it.

 

That’s a good point about my lateral hip slide...I *feel* like I’m only externally rotating my left knee, but video clearly shows my hips slide a couple inches forward. Perhaps the GG feel of rotating the knee and sitting back on the right side will help to correct that...?

 

You already sit back on your right side.

 

You have to fix that takeaway, you're spending so much energy trying to overcome that in transition.

 

Ever since I started working on all of this four years ago, we’ve only worked on transition...so I know nothing else

 

Then just play and wait for the clinic.

[b_f_c_99]

Thanks everyone for the comments!

 

As everyone has mentioned in some form or another, including another reputable source, my shoulder turn is too flat. Not sure how exactly to tackle the problem, I dug into my bag of tricks on the range today and gave it a go. Before, I had been bending the right arm almost immediately on the takeaway in an effort to stay compact to the top and control my flying right elbow which has pretty much plagued my entire golfing career. I also understand that that will also tend to create the inside takeaway and flat turn, so I tried the straight right arm takeaway, ala Dan C Drill. Here's a DTL video from today, and yes, I know I'm cheating here with the Smart Ball...

 

http://youtu.be/LwIXrp5GtrI

 

I'm not sure if this is the solution, but at least it looks a little different from earlier this week...

 

PD, I struggle with the exact same miss and takeaway/backswing issues. Too much early wrist hinge (you essentially start your swing by hinging your right hand) and not enough c0ck, and way too flat with the shoulders. You can clearly see that your path is far right and clubhead is still working down at impact. You can get away with it on the mid-to-short irons, but you will struggle with your woods. I'm actually impressed with how well you're able to transition from that position.

 

Something that's helped me is to feel like my hands work lower and closer to my right thigh on the initial takeaway, while trying to keep the face looking at the target as long as possible. Automatically gets my shoulders turning steeper and helps the wrist cocking action happen a little more naturally.

 

I'd always prescribed to the Joe Dante wrist action of right wrist hinge with the left wrist doing whatever it needed to support the right wrist. Right wrist hinge has just always felt the most powerful and solid to me. But you certainly have a point that it's happening too early.

 

What Joe Dante is this? The 4 magic moves book he clearly shows what the left wrist should be doing. It’s the entire focus of his teachings in that book

[PepsiDuck]

What Joe Dante is this? The 4 magic moves book he clearly shows what the left wrist should be doing. It’s the entire focus of his teachings in that book

 

Yes, 4 Magic Moves Joe Dante. But my left hand grip doesn’t match his. When I grip the club with just the left hand (my way) and rotate it to look like his left hand appears in Figure 1, the clubface is literally facing 45 degrees closed. I then rotate my left hand until the face is square, place my right hand on the club, and address the ball with club and left arm forming a straight line.

 

Now that I’m explaining it, it looks like my right wrist is already almost fully hinged back at address...

[PepsiDuck]

Then just play and wait for the clinic.

 

Yea...just need to figure out a way to comfortably and somewhat consistently get a driver on the ball...

[PepsiDuck]

Need radial deviation. Inside = death.

 

Messing around in the house with a club after typing up my other responses in this thread, and you really might be onto something here...I never really “studied” my wrist conditions at address until now, and what I thought was wrist set is just me rolling my forearms...

[oikos1]

Just perused the thread for a refresher and Pepsi, in the last year, you have been given at least three dozen different swing changes/thoughts/positions from three dozen wrxers, including yourself, that maybe somehow could have been or continue to be the problem. My favorite is still scapula manipulation.

 

May the forces of golf have mercy on you and this be your year.

[PepsiDuck]

Just perused the thread for a refresher and Pepsi, in the last year, you have been given at least three dozen different swing changes/thoughts/positions from three dozen wrxers, including yourself, that maybe somehow could have been or continue to be the problem. My favorite is still scapula manipulation.

 

May the forces of golf have mercy on you and this be your year.

 

Clearly I need to revisit that one. It might have been the secret all along to unlocking this puzzle... :dntknw:

[FullOfBrushMan]

Need radial deviation. Inside = death.

 

Messing around in the house with a club after typing up my other responses in this thread, and you really might be onto something here...I never really "studied" my wrist conditions at address until now, and what I thought was wrist set is just me rolling my forearms...

I'm not onto something ... I lived through it. I was the overthinker. Basically you overthink things because you have no idea on the basics because nobody ever told you on how things should work during the swing. Much of what I learn from the internet was misinterpreted and was used incorrectly. The reality is you won't learn a damn thing from this thread and if you do odds are you will misinterpret it.

 

IMO, wait till Monte's clinic and bombard him with BASIC questions. The golf swing is wayyyyy simpler than what you are making it.

[PepsiDuck]

I'm not onto something ... I lived through it. I was the overthinker. Basically you overthink things because you have no idea on the basics because nobody ever told you on how things should work during the swing. Much of what I learn from the internet was misinterpreted and was used incorrectly. The reality is you won't learn a damn thing from this thread and if you do odds are you will misinterpret it.

 

IMO, wait till Monte's clinic and bombard him with BASIC questions. The golf swing is wayyyyy simpler than what you are making it.

 

It will be my third Monte clinic on top of hours of private in-person lessons with him...over almost four years...and I have asked these basic questions...

 

And I do feel the discussions in this thread help me to think about things I’d never thought about or to reconsider other things in my golf swing mind palace. I’d argue that accuracy trumps simplicity for me when it comes to the golf swing. If you tell me to just simply swing my arms back and allow the wrists to set “naturally,” what I give you is an inside takeaway and a flat shoulder turn.

[b_f_c_99]

What Joe Dante is this? The 4 magic moves book he clearly shows what the left wrist should be doing. It’s the entire focus of his teachings in that book

 

Yes, 4 Magic Moves Joe Dante. But my left hand grip doesn’t match his. When I grip the club with just the left hand (my way) and rotate it to look like his left hand appears in Figure 1, the clubface is literally facing 45 degrees closed. I then rotate my left hand until the face is square, place my right hand on the club, and address the ball with club and left arm forming a straight line.

 

Now that I’m explaining it, it looks like my right wrist is already almost fully hinged back at address...

 

Dude! You can’t just take pieces of things that you read or watch on YouTube that appeal to you, then change all the fundamentals of how they work because your more comfortable holding the club YOUR way. Or It’s natural for you to do xxx on the backswing. The entire point of what they are explaining is so the pieces create a matchup for the swing to function.

[b_f_c_99]

I'm not onto something ... I lived through it. I was the overthinker. Basically you overthink things because you have no idea on the basics because nobody ever told you on how things should work during the swing. Much of what I learn from the internet was misinterpreted and was used incorrectly. The reality is you won't learn a damn thing from this thread and if you do odds are you will misinterpret it.

 

IMO, wait till Monte's clinic and bombard him with BASIC questions. The golf swing is wayyyyy simpler than what you are making it.

 

It will be my third Monte clinic on top of hours of private in-person lessons with him...over almost four years...and I have asked these basic questions...

 

And I do feel the discussions in this thread help me to think about things I’d never thought about or to reconsider other things in my golf swing mind palace. I’d argue that accuracy trumps simplicity for me when it comes to the golf swing. If you tell me to just simply swing my arms back and allow the wrists to set “naturally,” what I give you is an inside takeaway and a flat shoulder turn.

 

Well here’s the great thing, you can do those things, but you will have to figure out how to get the pieces to match up. Grip, stance, swing intentions, you can dig it out of the dirt to make a matchup that will work. You may not like how it looks or it might not produce the ball flight you envision but you can create a workable swing.

[PepsiDuck]

Dude! You can’t just take pieces of things that you read or watch on YouTube that appeal to you, then change all the fundamentals of how they work because your more comfortable holding the club YOUR way. Or It’s natural for you to do xxx on the backswing. The entire point of what they are explaining is so the pieces create a matchup for the swing to function.

 

I agree with you. But not a single instructor in the past four years (except drewtaylor) has ever wanted to change my backswing, even after I asked them directly, “will changing my backswing make the rest of the swing easier?” The answer had always been, “no, it’s fine the way it is.” Which naturally leads one to believe that he is doing it correctly, or at least correct enough.

 

So now I’m exploring why my backswing is so jacked up and how I can go about fixing it...or at least making it less bad...this is all relatively new territory for me...

[PepsiDuck]

Well here’s the great thing, you can do those things, but you will have to figure out how to get the pieces to match up. Grip, stance, swing intentions, you can dig it out of the dirt to make a matchup that will work. You may not like how it looks or it might not produce the ball flight you envision but you can create a workable swing.

 

And that’s what makes this so tough. That ugly inside takeaway swing gives me the best ball flight with my irons in terms of distance and trajectory. If I can solve the driver problem using that same swing, I’d be quite content leaving my swing as it is with the results I get. But I also know the mechanics of my ugly swing can’t allow me to swing the longer clubs with any degree of consistency, so it will likely require wholesale change.

 

So therein lies the frustrating part for me in all of this...if you only looked at my ball flight, you’d wonder why I was even messing with my swing...but if you only looked at my swing without the ball flight, you’d wonder how the hell im even able to hit a ball... :lol:

[glk]

well . . .

 

have you ever tried this drill? Keep the stick to your side until hands reach the trail thigh and are somewhere over the trail foot - then set the wrists which will drag the stick down your lead thigh - the arms do nothing until this point - you need to start left side bend from the start to keep that stick to your side - will help stop forearm roll and add much needed side bend and stop getting the club head inside your hands too early. When you do set the stick will come off and trace a path somewhere between your feet and the ball. Best to do it slowly like in the video and stop the leg, then hinge - handful of swing with the stick - handful of swings without, repeat - don't need to hit balls or hit them hard slow is better to start.

 

I'm wondering with your setup if the stick will even touch your left side?

 

https://www.instagra.../p/Bhe5iCyFZko/

[Golfbeat]

Or with a flat shoulder turn .. do what he does.

 

[FullOfBrushMan]

It will be my third Monte clinic on top of hours of private in-person lessons with him...over almost four years...and I have asked these basic questions...

 

And I do feel the discussions in this thread help me to think about things I'd never thought about or to reconsider other things in my golf swing mind palace. I'd argue that accuracy trumps simplicity for me when it comes to the golf swing. If you tell me to just simply swing my arms back and allow the wrists to set "naturally," what I give you is an inside takeaway and a flat shoulder turn.

What is you describe as natural is easy. Easy typically isn't optimal or correct. What feels weird/opposite is probably right. Took me 9 months to fix my steepness from P4 to P5 and my instructor, who is extremely popular and known in the golf world, gave me 3 different feelings to try. I had to practice 15 mins every day and came up with a different feeling in the end to get the result he wanted. But in order to get to that point I had to fix my setup and backswing.

 

And even now I still have to work on my swing because what I think/feel is natural/correct is completely wrong because of all of the BS I bought/read into.

 

IMO you just need to setup your phone and record several swings without hitting a ball. Just try this and see what positions you get into. Experiment and then adjust. All you do is feel like you rotate correctly and your right wrist radial deviates. That's it. You over rotate your arms as is therefore you need to simplify. Your arms don't move up independently. They don't rotate. All that moves is your core & shoulders rotating at the same time and your wrists radial deviating. Try it. Record it. See what your swing looks like. Feeling weird is a good thing. It's going to be a lot of failure but it comes with the territory of getting better.

 

That's what I mean by simplify. You have body parts that are doing too much so you need to cut them out.

[glk]

Or with a flat shoulder turn .. do what he does.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

Yet Rickie from DTL has as much if not more side bend/ shoulder tilt with driver than PD does with his iron.

His arms may look flatish and not up in the air like Justin but his pivot is good - it's anything but flat.

 

[Krt22]

FWIW my wrist hinge comment was mainly aimed at your driver swing, as the inside roll seemed more extreme with that club which then makes the flat turn almost inevitable. When my turn starts getting flat, I do a JT ish rehearsal to get to P2 and just think of hinging the club straight up from there. It's not close to straight up but it helps my shoulder tilt.

 

Starting to play with the mirror vision app and it helps a lot with feel vs real since you can see real time what is going on.

[Golfbeat]

Or with a flat shoulder turn .. do what he does.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

Yet Rickie from DTL has as much if not more side bend/ shoulder tilt with driver than PD does with his iron.

His arms may look flatish and not up in the air like Justin but his pivot is good - it's anything but flat.

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Or with a flat shoulder turn .. do what he does.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

Yet Rickie from DTL has as much if not more side bend/ shoulder tilt with driver than PD does with his iron.

His arms may look flatish and not up in the air like Justin but his pivot is good - it's anything but flat.

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

This is a more recent swing of Ricky.

[Krt22]

Yeah he has definitely back tracked a bit in terms of what he previously was working on with Butch

[PepsiDuck]

Thanks everyone for the awesome feedback. The three words, "need radial deviation," (thanks deathbymuffin) really resonated with me, and I spent a lot of time last night doing slow swings inside. I was able to hit a small bucket this evening and get some video of me doing the Faldo drill. I figured the best way to train this new feel was to do the full radial deviation right away and then turn back from the ball and through. I can tell an immediate difference on video just after hitting one ball. The practice swings I filmed looked even better. I know my transition still needs some work because my right elbow is still trailing behind my body, but I wanted to focus just on that takeaway. The good news is that I was hitting the ball really well and didn't need any extra active effort from my right arm at transition. Now the hard part will be to go from Faldo drill to smooth takeaway...hell, I may just play for the time being with the Faldo drill...

 

http://youtu.be/tmywosV-aUo"]http://youtu.be/tmywosV-aUo

[PepsiDuck]

Thanks everyone for the awesome feedback. The three words, "need radial deviation," (thanks deathbymuffin) really resonated with me, and I spent a lot of time last night doing slow swings inside. I realized that my old takeaway and backswing literally had almost none...it was all flexion/extension...

 

I was able to hit a small bucket this evening and get some video of me doing the Faldo drill. I figured the best way to train this new feel was to do the full radial deviation right away and then turn back from the ball and through. I can tell an immediate difference on video just after hitting one ball. The practice swings I filmed looked even better. I know my transition still needs some work because my right elbow is still trailing behind my body, but I wanted to focus just on that takeaway. The good news is that I was hitting the ball really well and didn't need any extra active effort from my right arm at transition. I know I probably have a long way to go, but I'm hoping I'm at least moving in the correct direction...

 

Here's a side by side DTL from earlier this week and today:

 

http://youtu.be/tmywosV-aUo

[PepsiDuck]

What is you describe as natural is easy. Easy typically isn't optimal or correct. What feels weird/opposite is probably right. Took me 9 months to fix my steepness from P4 to P5 and my instructor, who is extremely popular and known in the golf world, gave me 3 different feelings to try. I had to practice 15 mins every day and came up with a different feeling in the end to get the result he wanted. But in order to get to that point I had to fix my setup and backswing.

 

And even now I still have to work on my swing because what I think/feel is natural/correct is completely wrong because of all of the BS I bought/read into.

 

IMO you just need to setup your phone and record several swings without hitting a ball. Just try this and see what positions you get into. Experiment and then adjust. All you do is feel like you rotate correctly and your right wrist radial deviates. That's it. You over rotate your arms as is therefore you need to simplify. Your arms don't move up independently. They don't rotate. All that moves is your core & shoulders rotating at the same time and your wrists radial deviating. Try it. Record it. See what your swing looks like. Feeling weird is a good thing. It's going to be a lot of failure but it comes with the territory of getting better.

 

That's what I mean by simplify. You have body parts that are doing too much so you need to cut them out.

 

I agree on all counts. Experimenting with the radial deviation today and really emphasizing it with the Faldo drill definitely felt weird (and wrong!). The interesting thing about what you said in bold above is, when I set my wrists at address, all I did was turn my body to make my backswing and turn my body from the top to impact. I never thought about what my arms were doing, and I hadn't been able to do that in a very long time...