Pepsi Duck's Golf Thread: Progress...?

[CasualLie]

Another way of understanding my concept of "Contamination" , which is using the wrong part of your brain-mind to control your body when moving at normal full speed tempo, ie using the conscious intellectual thinking mind to try to directly change how moving body parts move. It's like using an abacus to do a task that only a super computer can do.

 

Or it's like you buy a complex toy that requires assembly for your kid's Christmas present. Lets say it is a toy robot, that comes with a 15 page booklet of assembly instructions. Traditional teaching is kind of like handing the booklet of instructions ("Insert Tab A into Slot B") to your kid on Christmas morning, and saying to him "Merry Christmas, Timmy! Here is your new toy robot....have fun!"

 

The instructions are NOT the same thing as the robot. And symbols are NOT the same thing as the reality they point to.

 

All language-based and visual image- based instruction theory are simply instructions that are designed to stimulate the learning process, which will inevitably end up being completed at some point, with a golfer's body doing a new movement pattern that requires ZERO thought or will power or choice. And the essential nature of that learning process is intuitive and sensory NOT intellectual/cognitive/analytical. Learning a golf swing is not at all like solving an engineering puzzle. You need to engage your main tool which is Sensory Awareness or the ability to feel your body motion purely and directly without any intervening layers of visual imagery or word directions.

 

Meaning the whole purpose of instruction theory is simply to stimulate the Process of learning, which starts with awareness of what the body is actually doing, not what it "should" be doing. Then contemplating about the ideal theory, and contrasting that with what your body is actually doing, and seeing how big that Gap truly is. That Gap is filled with the next step which is Deep Insight or a "light bulb moment" at the level of the intuitive mind, the interface between conscious and non-conscious. That is the foundation for all of the thousands of reps you do at the next step, in slow mo, in front of a mirror. Then you Feel how that new move feels in slow motion....rinse and repeat. Then do the same cycle at half speed. Thousands or reps.

 

Eventually you end up with a clear and distinct feel sense memory for the new move at full speed. You can then hold that memory in your mind's eye during your rehearsal swings at start of your routine, and hope that your sub-conscious mind "get's the message" and delivers by actually executing the new pattern. You can also hold that feel sense memory in your mind during the actual swing - but that option has some serious downside risks, especially when playing under pressure.

 

"Getting the message" can be problematic, IF a. you are at less than the 51% Tipping Point of reps and b. you are under performance stress of any kind.

 

Swing feel memory can then "trigger" the new movement pattern to be executed by your subconscious mind.

 

Body responding to a trigger is NOT the same thing as how 99% of golfers understand the term "swing thought". The common understanding is more along the lines of using that "thought" as an actual direct command to move a body part. Swing feels used as triggers are "pre-planned" well prior to the point in the swing where the change actually occurs.

 

I really like this post. A few questions...

 

Let’s say you buy into this notion you need thousands of slow motion reps to get your swing and mind right, but since that will take a long time and in the meantime you like to play golf, what's the mindset to have while you are playing and in this long term transition?

 

While you are playing, and even in a tournament, if your "swing thought" is broader and more feel related, just one thought...more a trigger than anything else...for example telling yourself to "bump" as a first, down, will that still likely cause a flinch?

 

It seems all levels of golfers need some sort of thought to occupy the mind, what should it be?

 

 

[northgolf]

Dude,

 

You need to switch to Coke.

[mulliganman30]

Yeah I’m thinking the OP needs to read something by Bob Rotella. I’m thinking Golf is Not a Game of Perfect.

[oikos1]

Dude,

 

You need to switch to Coke.

"Oh to live on, Sugar Mountain"

[moehogan]

Dude,

 

You need to switch to Coke.

"Oh to live on, Sugar Mountain"

 

OMG, he's aged out of Pepsi? LOL

[PepsiDuck]

You are making a huge assumption that mechanical changes will neutralise the path. Most drills for OTT calls for exaggerated moves which over time can lead to other issues because those moves are simply not natural. How the heck can anyone play with the swing thought of keeping your back to the target for example? It might work for a week or two but you will eventually develop other serious issues.

 

There are subtle changes you can make without going contrived and unnatural. I used to have an out to in path problem before and none of those drills stuck. It would work initially but I usually ended up hitting it worse because it wasn't athletically natural. I made a subtle change to my backswing by getting a deeper hip turn which naturally reduced the out to in without making any exaggerated contrived movements. I could keep my athletically natural downswing. This worked for me but I can't guarantee it will for others but I'm just giving this as an example of being able to change your swing without changing your DNA.

 

Exaggeration feels and drills generally did not work out for me...oftentimes it would send me over to the other extreme of the spectrum and create new issues and difficulties. I'd keep chasing the awkward feeling, and as the new move become more natural, I'd think I was doing it wrong again and then chase the awkward feeling. At one point, I was at the top of my finish and both feet were still flat on the ground, because I didn't want to open my hips too soon. I literally anchored both feet onto the ground through the entire followthrough to make for d*mn sure that my hips wouldn't fire.

 

It felt like the targeting cycle for artillery...fire 500 m long, then fire 400 m short, then 200 m long, etc. until you've acquired the target and can fire for effect. I've realized that for me, I'd prefer to know exactly what I need to do and then drill that particular movement with the assistance of video until it becomes "natural," or at least less weird. This is the process Drew and I are using, to reasonably decent effect...

 

I really like this post. A few questions...

 

Let’s say you buy into this notion you need thousands of slow motion reps to get your swing and mind right, but since that will take a long time and in the meantime you like to play golf, what's the mindset to have while you are playing and in this long term transition?

 

While you are playing, and even in a tournament, if your "swing thought" is broader and more feel related, just one thought...more a trigger than anything else...for example telling yourself to "bump" as a first, down, will that still likely cause a flinch?

 

It seems all levels of golfers need some sort of thought to occupy the mind, what should it be?

 

This is a great question, and one that I hope Jim will be able to answer during our session...

[PepsiDuck]

I certainly appreciate everyone's feedback so far. It's been about two and a half weeks since I first started with Drew, and I'd have to say that I'm pretty happy with the progress we've made so far.

 

Today I picked up my new Miura Black Boron Baby Blades. Blacked out with KBS $-Taper shafts and PURE grips. There was absolutely no way in hell I could have built these myself. The builder did an outstanding job with the specs, and he said that there were some painful times with the frequency matching and several shipments of returned shafts to KBS... :lol:

 

Hopefully one day I'll be good enough to play with them....they are absolutely stunning in person...I wish I was a better photographer...or had something better than an iPhone 5. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carrera]

Honest question from a guy who has owned a gazillion sets of clubs over the last few decades (but not for the last few years)...why would you buy such demanding irons if your goal is to shoot lower scores? It would be like buying a persimmon driver or Mizuno 300S as your new driver. Why make the game harder for yourself?

[drewtaylor21]

Honest question from a guy who has owned a gazillion sets of clubs over the last few decades (but not for the last few years)...why would you buy such demanding irons if your goal is to shoot lower scores? It would be like buying a persimmon driver or Mizuno 300S as your new driver. Why make the game harder for yourself?

 

I refuse to work with anyone not bagging blades. It's all part of the process. No white belts either.

 

"Calvin," thanks for following orders. They're stunning! My handicap dropped by two strokes just looking at the pictures!

[PepsiDuck]

Honest question from a guy who has owned a gazillion sets of clubs over the last few decades (but not for the last few years)...why would you buy such demanding irons if your goal is to shoot lower scores? It would be like buying a persimmon driver or Mizuno 300S as your new driver. Why make the game harder for yourself?

 

And this would be my honest answer...

 

(1) My research in the JDM forum led me to believe that the Baby Blades are actually the least "demanding" of the Miura blade line...and not much different in terms of forgiveness from my current set.

 

(2) They don't make them anymore. I had the idea for them, and a fellow WRX member was able to hook me up with a new set of heads...so I wasn't passing up the opportunity, even if I have to "grow into them"...

 

(3) I don't intend to be facetious, but for my particular issue, is there really any difference between a Titleist AP1 and a random blade? I honestly don't know, because I've never played anything bigger than the Mizuno MP-15, and I can miss it with that club just as well...

[jerebear21]

Honest question from a guy who has owned a gazillion sets of clubs over the last few decades (but not for the last few years)...why would you buy such demanding irons if your goal is to shoot lower scores? It would be like buying a persimmon driver or Mizuno 300S as your new driver. Why make the game harder for yourself?

 

I was thinking the same thing but OP has shown masochistic tendencies in his approach to golf!

 

It's ok to be dumb and play golf well. =P

[mshills]

My days of playing blades are FAR in the past..........but if I did play blades it would be those blades!

 

That is a bitchin' set of irons. Awesome.

[wmblake2000]

Pepsi you are a maniac. But a maniac with black boron baby blades (bbbb!).

 

Play ‘em... Play ‘em now. Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead!

[ShutSteepStuck]

Honest question from a guy who has owned a gazillion sets of clubs over the last few decades (but not for the last few years)...why would you buy such demanding irons if your goal is to shoot lower scores? It would be like buying a persimmon driver or Mizuno 300S as your new driver. Why make the game harder for yourself?

 

(3) I don't intend to be facetious, but for my particular issue, is there really any difference between a Titleist AP1 and a random blade? I honestly don't know, because I've never played anything bigger than the Mizuno MP-15, and I can miss it with that club just as well...

 

Yes, a significant difference in distance and dispersion btw AP1's and blades, but to each their own. AP1's have gotten quite a bit chunkier and much stronger w/the lofts since 712's but the 712's are $$$

[djfalcone]

I don't get why people bang people for playing blades - it's the only thing I've ever played and my swing has evolved - no lessons - into a single digit in no time. While some natural athletic ability and head/eye coordination is most of it (and YouTube) the smaller club head forces me to make a centered and repeatable golf swing. Keep it up Pepsi - no one needs to approve of you or your clubs.

[q-school]

those are beautiful clubs. dibs

[Jim Waldron]

You are making a huge assumption that mechanical changes will neutralise the path. Most drills for OTT calls for exaggerated moves which over time can lead to other issues because those moves are simply not natural. How the heck can anyone play with the swing thought of keeping your back to the target for example? It might work for a week or two but you will eventually develop other serious issues.

 

There are subtle changes you can make without going contrived and unnatural. I used to have an out to in path problem before and none of those drills stuck. It would work initially but I usually ended up hitting it worse because it wasn't athletically natural. I made a subtle change to my backswing by getting a deeper hip turn which naturally reduced the out to in without making any exaggerated contrived movements. I could keep my athletically natural downswing. This worked for me but I can't guarantee it will for others but I'm just giving this as an example of being able to change your swing without changing your DNA.

 

Exaggeration feels and drills generally did not work out for me...oftentimes it would send me over to the other extreme of the spectrum and create new issues and difficulties. I'd keep chasing the awkward feeling, and as the new move become more natural, I'd think I was doing it wrong again and then chase the awkward feeling. At one point, I was at the top of my finish and both feet were still flat on the ground, because I didn't want to open my hips too soon. I literally anchored both feet onto the ground through the entire followthrough to make for d*mn sure that my hips wouldn't fire.

 

It felt like the targeting cycle for artillery...fire 500 m long, then fire 400 m short, then 200 m long, etc. until you've acquired the target and can fire for effect. I've realized that for me, I'd prefer to know exactly what I need to do and then drill that particular movement with the assistance of video until it becomes "natural," or at least less weird. This is the process Drew and I are using, to reasonably decent effect...

 

I really like this post. A few questions...

 

Let’s say you buy into this notion you need thousands of slow motion reps to get your swing and mind right, but since that will take a long time and in the meantime you like to play golf, what's the mindset to have while you are playing and in this long term transition?

 

While you are playing, and even in a tournament, if your "swing thought" is broader and more feel related, just one thought...more a trigger than anything else...for example telling yourself to "bump" as a first, down, will that still likely cause a flinch?

 

It seems all levels of golfers need some sort of thought to occupy the mind, what should it be?

 

This is a great question, and one that I hope Jim will be able to answer during our session...

 

Two types of "swing thoughts": 1. those acting as a trigger for an actual existing motor program in the golfer's Swing Map in his subconscious mind, that got there through the Process of awareness/insight/reps in slow motion/distinct feel sensation for the new move all of which creates a situation of at least the 51% Tipping Point, ie a motor program that is on the way to being a strong dominant habit. 2. those that are functioning as direct commands from the intellectual mind of the golfer to the body, in the absence of an existing motor program.

 

#2 is far more common, especially by mid to high handicaps.

 

#2 is very toxic to good golf and enmeshes the golfer in a cycle of endless self-delusion due to the fact that random luck will cause that golfer to hit some good shots when employing a "swing thought". ie Random Reinforcement Syndrome. #2 will almost always result in a flinch in the body, so actually creates a worse golf swing than if the golfer used zero swing thoughts, and just focused on his intent to send the ball to the target.

 

#1 is common among advanced golfers. But it too has issues if the golfer is in the 51% to around 90% on the reps spectrum, ie not yet a dominant habit. It can create a flinch as well, although not at the intensity of #2. The connection between brain-mind and body can become quite weak using these kinds of "thoughts" (visual images or verbal commands) especially under stress/pressure.

"Feels" have a much stronger brain-mind to body connection and a proven track record for "switching on" the new motor program .

Problem is most advanced players will tell you they are using "thoughts" when in fact they employ "feels".

Average golfer hears the pro say "swing thoughts" (in reality swing feels) and thinks. "OK, I am on the right track here, thinking about making my body do these changes". Mass Insanity....

[Jim Waldron]

Reps practice. How long does it take? In my Slow Motion Training system, slow motion speed is 30 seconds start to finish, Super Slow Motion is 60 seconds, Half Speed is 3 seconds (twice the normal 1.5 second tempo). Most of the reps are done at Slow Motion

speed. So Takeaway segment would last about 8-10 seconds. Or about 6-7 reps per minute, or about 125 reps per 20 minute session, times 6 days per week equals about 750 reps per week times 4 weeks equals about 3,000 reps or a bit more per month.

 

That is one month in the life of a golfer at 20 minutes per day, monday through saturday, to start to form a dominant habit that will execute on the golf course. Ask yourself how long it takes you to drive to the range, set up, hit balls for 90 minutes, get back in your car and drive home and then tell me that slow motion mirror work "takes too much time"......

 

The "bang for your buck" equation in terms of time invested is not even close. And if you are banging balls at below the 51% threshold, (which 90% of golfers are doing) you are wasting your time.

[wmblake2000]

Reps practice. How long does it take? In my Slow Motion Training system, slow motion speed is 30 seconds start to finish, Super Slow Motion is 60 seconds, Half Speed is 3 seconds (twice the normal 1.5 second tempo). Most of the reps are done at Slow Motion

speed. So Takeaway segment would last about 8-10 seconds. Or about 6-7 reps per minute, or about 125 reps per 20 minute session, times 6 days per week equals about 750 reps per week times 4 weeks equals about 3,000 reps or a bit more per month.

 

That is one month in the life of a golfer at 20 minutes per day, monday through saturday, to start to form a dominant habit that will execute on the golf course. Ask yourself how long it takes you to drive to the range, set up, hit balls for 90 minutes, get back in your car and drive home and then tell me that slow motion mirror work "takes too much time"......

 

The "bang for your buck" equation in terms of time invested is not even close. And if you are banging balls at below the 51% threshold, (which 90% of golfers are doing) you are wasting your time.

 

JIM! There was a Far Side joke back in the day. Two buzzards are sitting on a fence post in the desert. Desolation is all around - old cattle skulls, etc. One buzzard says to the other, "Patience my azz. I'm going to kill something."

 

Your drill made me recall this joke. I frankly couldn't imagine doing this. Excruciating. But I just did a trial run. Ok, I'm not sure I could endure 20 minutes a day. Wait, let me be more honest. No way in hell I could endure 20 minutes/day of 30 second swings. But I see the value of it. So I'm going to give it a serious try out for the month of May.

[dap]

You are making a huge assumption that mechanical changes will neutralise the path. Most drills for OTT calls for exaggerated moves which over time can lead to other issues because those moves are simply not natural. How the heck can anyone play with the swing thought of keeping your back to the target for example? It might work for a week or two but you will eventually develop other serious issues.

 

There are subtle changes you can make without going contrived and unnatural. I used to have an out to in path problem before and none of those drills stuck. It would work initially but I usually ended up hitting it worse because it wasn't athletically natural. I made a subtle change to my backswing by getting a deeper hip turn which naturally reduced the out to in without making any exaggerated contrived movements. I could keep my athletically natural downswing. This worked for me but I can't guarantee it will for others but I'm just giving this as an example of being able to change your swing without changing your DNA.

 

Exaggeration feels and drills generally did not work out for me...oftentimes it would send me over to the other extreme of the spectrum and create new issues and difficulties. I'd keep chasing the awkward feeling, and as the new move become more natural, I'd think I was doing it wrong again and then chase the awkward feeling. At one point, I was at the top of my finish and both feet were still flat on the ground, because I didn't want to open my hips too soon. I literally anchored both feet onto the ground through the entire followthrough to make for d*mn sure that my hips wouldn't fire.

 

It felt like the targeting cycle for artillery...fire 500 m long, then fire 400 m short, then 200 m long, etc. until you've acquired the target and can fire for effect. I've realized that for me, I'd prefer to know exactly what I need to do and then drill that particular movement with the assistance of video until it becomes "natural," or at least less weird. This is the process Drew and I are using, to reasonably decent effect...

 

I really like this post. A few questions...

 

Let’s say you buy into this notion you need thousands of slow motion reps to get your swing and mind right, but since that will take a long time and in the meantime you like to play golf, what's the mindset to have while you are playing and in this long term transition?

 

While you are playing, and even in a tournament, if your "swing thought" is broader and more feel related, just one thought...more a trigger than anything else...for example telling yourself to "bump" as a first, down, will that still likely cause a flinch?

 

It seems all levels of golfers need some sort of thought to occupy the mind, what should it be?

 

This is a great question, and one that I hope Jim will be able to answer during our session...

Just about any drill you can think of can work for anyone. The key is finding the ones that are lasting and doesn't eventually lead to other issues. The best example is keep back facing the target or dropping the arms straight down to fix over the toppers. They do work but it eventually leads to being chronically underplane. A lot blockers and hookers are former over the toppers.

 

I also believe golfers gravitate towards a certain style naturally because that style works most consistently when they play under pressure. For Nicklaus that would be a straight back straight through upright swing down the turned shoulder plane. For Hogan it's more an around the body flatter plane. That's the plane they feel they have control of the face and the clubhead under pressure which leads to tighter shot dispersion. It's not the plane they chose because that's how they prefer to look on video as that's how their favorite player swings. The belief that if I can swing like Hogan then I will hit the ball like Hogan is crap. If you are spraying balls wildly then I believe you have chosen the wrong style. It will feel awkward because you subconciously don't feel you have control of the clubhead even though it "looks" good on video. If you spray balls for long enough then the yips develop. For Tiger as an example I can't see anything in his swing that explains the 100 yard misses. You can nitpick his swing but nothing huge is going on.

 

[chrisgilly09]

Dude,

 

You need to switch to Coke.

 

Tastes terrible, at least it smells good

[ALIF]

Dude,

 

You need to switch to Coke.

 

Tastes terrible, at least it smells good

 

Coke Zero is the nectar of the Gods!!!

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Pepsi,

 

Gonna post a lil link here for you. I’m deep into an aged bottle of anejo and feel you pain. Listen carefully to the lyrics of what I consider the greatest acoustical set in modern history. This guy Dylan Frost is misunderstood but arguably genius and hated by his peers. Relevance to actual golf? Who cares..... it’s about a shitshow turned south.

 

Listen and apply

[Hawkeye77]

Who didn't see these fancy blades coming?

 

LOL, do what you enjoy!

[Krt22]

C-7 seems very light!

[Yrrdead]

C-7 seems very light!

 

Ok i'm glad i'm not the only one that thought so. Though I don't really get all the club building stuff in regards to moi vs swingweight, total weight vs perceived weight.

[wmblake2000]

I don’t know how it gets to such a light sw with those shafts/heads unless they are pretty short....

[MountainGoat]

C-7 seems very light!

 

Yeah, that was going to be me comment, too. No way that someone with the OP's swing style would test that light. The next thing we'll see are a lot of posts complaining about off-center hits.

[PepsiDuck]

C-7 seems very light!

 

Ok i'm glad i'm not the only one that thought so. Though I don't really get all the club building stuff in regards to moi vs swingweight, total weight vs perceived weight.

 

I don’t know how it gets to such a light sw with those shafts/heads unless they are pretty short....

 

They are only 1/2” short...with the heavy shafts and clubheads, it was done with some *serious* counterweighting...I’ve never seen a static weight chart for irons, but with an average total static weight of ~425 g, they are pretty heavy. Not sure how that compares to “average”...

 

It was back in 2014 when I was on the range and a guy from Tour Lock came over and peddled his wares. He put one of his counterweights into my 9 iron and I was hooked. “Normally” weighted clubs have felt terrible to me ever since. So the builder matched the new irons to what my current irons were at...C-7....

[wmblake2000]

Ah, interesting. totally forgot about counter-weighting.