Cage Match to the DEATH: LPGA Tour vs. Middle-aged Scratch and Below

[Red4282]

1 minute ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

A scratch shoots mid 70s and a few rounds in the 80s. You put them on the LPGA USO or the PGA this year they would have been 25 or more over par. 

 

What are you basing your claim on? Scratches you know? What tees/rating are they playing? A scratch shoots the COURSE RATING 40% of the time. Thats is literally how they get their handicap.  Thats a fact, no ands ifs or buts. Over a four round tournament, yes you are correct, their bad round or two will hurt them likely, and will finish near the bottom of the field, BUT, not all scratches are as volatile as you make it out to be. 

[AZBRONCFAN]

28 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

What are you basing your claim on? Scratches you know? What tees/rating are they playing? A scratch shoots the COURSE RATING 40% of the time. Thats is literally how they get their handicap.  Thats a fact, no ands ifs or buts. Over a four round tournament, yes you are correct, their bad round or two will hurt them likely, and will finish near the bottom of the field, BUT, not all scratches are as volatile as you make it out to be. 

Here is what it looks like when you put these "scratches" in a real tournament and make them play by the rules. This is roughly 7500 yards, 76.4 142. 

[Frank Newport]

This weeks LPGA tournament played 6500 yards and 50th place shot even par. 🤣

 

Y’all are talking about these ladies like they’re 2000 Tiger Woods. The only explanation I can think of is that your wife reads your posts. 

 

 

[fowlerscousin]

1 hour ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

Yeah no way. Especially over 4 rounds. Scratch golfers shoot mid 70s and rarely if ever break par on a real course. Plus you throw in the gimme putts, lateral drops, noodling ball, breakfast balls and all the other stuff they do, no chance. I know, I know, the scratch you play with dont do that but I've played with so many of these guys and they all seem to do when I play with them. Now put the crowd and cameras out there..........

 

A scratch is closer to a 10 handicap than contending with these gals. They would have lost by 30 at Erin Hills and the Frisco major playing 4 rounds.

Bro golf is not just the caddyshack movie

[Frank Newport]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I'm sure you realize that there is a difference between handicap indices of men and women. You are just trying to be sarcastic or something?

What? The USGA has gone woke! I didn’t fight 3 tours in Vietnam so our daughters can run around claiming their better golfers than Sepp Straka! 

[Red4282]

1 hour ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

Here is what it looks like when you put these "scratches" in a real tournament and make them play by the rules. This is roughly 7500 yards, 76.4 142. 

Again, that isnt evidence of anything.

[aabcuue]

2 hours ago, Red4282 said:

What are you basing your claim on? Scratches you know? What tees/rating are they playing? A scratch shoots the COURSE RATING 40% of the time. Thats is literally how they get their handicap.  Thats a fact, no ands ifs or buts. Over a four round tournament, yes you are correct, their bad round or two will hurt them likely, and will finish near the bottom of the field, BUT, not all scratches are as volatile as you make it out to be. 

Your calculations are wrong per USGA.

“A player typically plays to their handicap about 20% of the time and can expect to score about 2-4 strokes higher in most rounds.”

”determine your "Target Score" (the score you'll achieve if you play to your handicap) by simply adding together your Course Handicap + par of the tees being played?”

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/topics/course-and-playing-handicap.html

Per USGA, a scratch will typically shoot +2 to +4 and only 20% actually shoot 0/ even par.

 

Typical LPGA pro carries better than +4 to +8hcp. Therefore will shoot -2 to -6 on an average round.

Edited July 14 by aabcuue

[WesternRacing]

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

 

 

I understand you guys are taking up for the ladies but lets pump the brakes lol….We have already established some very data based conclusions. That a male scratch would shoot around the course rating 40% of the time. At these LPGA setups, thats around par. Many many lpga rounds above par. Kinda getting old hearing all the anecdotal experiences with a few rounds you played with a handful of scratches or a really good female once. That isnt evidence of anything.

 

And you’re cherry picking data that’s incompatible: casual male amateur rounds against tournament LPGA rounds.  Two entirely different things.  If you want the real data, just go back to my post a while back with links to articles containing actual data via Arccos database, as well as actual tournaments that pitted LPGA players against experienced scratch male golfers on the same course and on the same days.  The women smoked the guys and the guys, some of who are very solid scratch players, commented on how much better the women are than them.  Pro golf and amateur golf are different worlds.

[Red4282]

5 hours ago, aabcuue said:

Your calculations are wrong per USGA.

“A player typically plays to their handicap about 20% of the time and can expect to score about 2-4 strokes higher in most rounds.”

”determine your "Target Score" (the score you'll achieve if you play to your handicap) by simply adding together your Course Handicap + par of the tees being played?”

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/topics/course-and-playing-handicap.html

Per USGA, a scratch will typically shoot +2 to +4 and only 20% actually shoot 0/ even par.

 

Typical LPGA pro carries better than +4 to +8hcp. Therefore will shoot -2 to -6 on an average round.

Thats misleading, because a handicap is your 8 best scores over 20 rounds. So im assuming they mean 4 rounds were right at their handicap, 2 better, 2 worse. So using that, there is a 30% chance a scratch shoots at his handicap or better. An average round if-2 to -6 eh?? Thats so laughable, you know we have actual data right? The scoring average for every player combined in 2024 is 71.82. Id say thats their “average round”. Their handicaps are more likely in the +2 to +5 range.

 

4 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

 

And you’re cherry picking data that’s incompatible: casual male amateur rounds against tournament LPGA rounds.  Two entirely different things.  If you want the real data, just go back to my post a while back with links to articles containing actual data via Arccos database, as well as actual tournaments that pitted LPGA players against experienced scratch male golfers on the same course and on the same days.  The women smoked the guys and the guys, some of who are very solid scratch players, commented on how much better the women are than them.  Pro golf and amateur golf are different worlds.

If I remember correctly, that link provided was for over 4 rounds? I think we are all in agreement that is really not feasible for a scratch. My argument is a single round on any given day. The odds are still heavily in favor of the pro, but the scratch has a fighting chance. The whole tournament vs casual round is overblown too. Like scratches never play money matches or tournaments.

Edited July 14 by Red4282

[UncleJohn’sBand]

8 hours ago, Red4282 said:

What are you basing your claim on? Scratches you know? What tees/rating are they playing? A scratch shoots the COURSE RATING 40% of the time. Thats is literally how they get their handicap.  Thats a fact, no ands ifs or buts. Over a four round tournament, yes you are correct, their bad round or two will hurt them likely, and will finish near the bottom of the field, BUT, not all scratches are as volatile as you make it out to be. 

Scratch golfers kinda suck. My favorite flavor of “scratch” golfers all take way too long to play tour tournament rounds, and read every three footer like their life depends on it -OR- they’re too scared to actually put a pencil to a scorecard when tournament time rolls around. 
 

Not only are they volatile, but I’d wager probably 5-10% of scratch golfers are vanity caps. Probably higher. 
 

No show me a guy with a bunch of “C”s beside his scores in GHIN that’s a 0 or better, we can have a different conversation. 

[aenemated]

Have I mentioned recently how stupid the concept of a handicap is?

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

8 hours ago, Frank Newport said:

What? The USGA has gone woke! I didn’t fight 3 tours in Vietnam so our daughters can run around claiming their better golfers than Sepp Straka! 

Gender based handicaps have been around long before you spent your time in Vietnam (thank you for your service). A +7.8 D1 woman would never claim to be better than a PGAT player. She will, however, be very competitive with a men's scratch to +1. There is roughly a 6 - 7 stroke difference between men's indices and women's. 

[AZBRONCFAN]

8 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Again, that isnt evidence of anything.

Its evidence that a "scratch" would get paddled by a LPGA player. Again, scratch is closer to a 10 handicap than a touring pro. 

[Obee]

13 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Nelly Korda shot +4 on Friday on that 6504yds. Anyone think a scratch player has a chance of beating Nelly? 🫣

 

Yes. In a single round.

[Frank Newport]

7 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Gender based handicaps have been around long before you spent your time in Vietnam (thank you for your service). A +7.8 D1 woman would never claim to be better than a PGAT player. She will, however, be very competitive with a men's scratch to +1. There is roughly a 6 - 7 stroke difference between men's indices and women's. 

Thank you, I appreciate the explanation, but I can't take credit for service I didn't perform, just as I clearly stated in my reply.  

[Obee]

10 hours ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

Here is what it looks like when you put these "scratches" in a real tournament and make them play by the rules. This is roughly 7500 yards, 76.4 142. 

 

[UncleJohn’sBand]

2 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Yes. In a single round.

You think a scratch golfer would/ could beat the current best female golfer in the world…..

 

[Obee]

10 hours ago, AZBRONCFAN said:

Here is what it looks like when you put these "scratches" in a real tournament and make them play by the rules. This is roughly 7500 yards, 76.4 142. 

Yup. 

 

BY DEFINITION, a scratch golfer will shoot right around the COURSE RATING about 40% of the time. This isn't hard, people. Their best 8 of 10 will AVERAGE the COURSE RATING (NOT PAR!) of the courses they played for the 8 rounds that are their lowest differentials.

Edited July 14 by Obee

[Obee]

2 minutes ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

You think a scratch golfer would/ could beat the current best female golfer in the world…..

 

In a head to head match, almost never. In a tournament on the same course in the exact same conditions, absolutely it can happen when she has a bad day. If you don't understand that, you don't know golf.

 

Edited July 14 by Obee

[Obee]

1 minute ago, Obee said:

In a head to head match, almost never. In a tournament on the same course in the exact same conditions, absolutely it can happen when she has a bad day. If you don't understand that, you don't know golf.

 

Adding that I have already said a scratch has NO CHANCE against an elite woman in a four-round tournament.

[UncleJohn’sBand]

5 minutes ago, Obee said:

In a head to head match, almost never. In a tournament on the same course in the exact same conditions, absolutely it can happen when she has a bad day. If you don't understand that, you don't know golf.

 

I guess thread over! The best female golfer in the world can be beat by a scratch…..who knew?!?!?!

 

 

Theres still time to delete this. 

Edited July 14 by UncleJohn’sBand

[Obee]

Just now, UncleJohn’sBand said:

I guess thread over! The best female golfer in the world can be beat by a scratch…..who knew?!?!?!

 

 

Theres still time to delete this. 

You clearly don't understand the vagaries of the game we play.

There's still time for you to learn this game and how players of various skill levels score on courses of various difficulties based on ... simple math.

But you're probably one of those people who think LPGA courses are set up incredibly difficult such that no male amateur could ever hope to break par or shoot anywhere near par.

And you are wrong. 

How many LPGA players have you played with? How many PGA Tour pros have you played with? Have many PGA Tour pros have you gambled with? How many PGA Tour Courses have you played the day after the tournament? How many LPGA courses?

You would have been someone who chimed in like a tool on this thread

 only to find out that you just ... don't know much about golf... 

There's still time for you to delete yours.

[aenemated]

The extents dudes will go to create scenarios where they just maybe might get beat by a girl is endlessly entertaining. 

[Obee]

4 minutes ago, aenemated said:

The extents dudes will go to create scenarios where they just maybe might get beat by a girl is endlessly entertaining. 

I am responding only to specific idiotic claims. See all of my posts to see what I claim about the ladies. A single round is not a golf tournament. The professional game is a game of four round tournaments. No scratch players is ever going to beat the top ladies in a four-round tournament. In a single round of golf, when a top lady plays poorly and the scratch am plays well, they are capable of posting a lower score. This will be rare. But it will happen because ... math. 

[UncleJohn’sBand]

12 minutes ago, Obee said:

You clearly don't understand the vagaries of the game we play.

There's still time for you to learn this game and how players of various skill levels score on courses of various difficulties based on ... simple math.

But you're probably one of those people who think LPGA courses are set up incredibly difficult such that no male amateur could ever hope to break par or shoot anywhere near par.

And you are wrong. 

How many LPGA players have you played with? How many PGA Tour pros have you played with? Have many PGA Tour pros have you gambled with? How many PGA Tour Courses have you played the day after the tournament? How many LPGA courses?

You would have been someone who chimed in like a tool on this thread

 only to find out that you just ... don't know much about golf... 

There's still time for you to delete yours.

Taylor Penrith. Kramer Hickok. Rico Hoey. Jake Knapp. Stuart McDonald. Neal Shipley. Lucas Glover. JJ Spaun. Azahara Munoz. Marina Alex. Austin Ernst. Mackenzie Hughes. Brendan Todd. 
 

I can keep going. Pretty sure I still have all the tee sheets from the Mackenzie tour in my emails somewhere. 
 

Not to mention all the fun rounds around Florida in the winter months. 

Edited July 14 by UncleJohn’sBand

[UncleJohn’sBand]

2 minutes ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

Taylor Penrith. Kramer Hickok. Rico Hoey. Jake Knapp. Stuart McDonald. Neal Shipley. Lucas Glover. JJ Spaun. Azahara Munoz. Marina Alex. Austin Ernst. Mackenzie Hughes. Brendan Todd. 
 

I can keep going. Pretty sure I still have all the tee sheets from the Mackenzie tour in my emails somewhere. 
 

Not to mention all the fun rounds around Florida in the winter months. 

Can Davis. Damn. I forgot one. 

[Obee]

6 minutes ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

Taylor Penrith. Kramer Hickok. Rico Hoey. Jake Knapp. Stuart McDonald. Neal Shipley. Lucas Glover. JJ Spaun. Azahara Munoz. Marina Alex. Austin Ernst. Mackenzie Hughes. Brendan Todd. 
 

I can keep going. Pretty sure I still have all the tee sheets from the Mackenzie tour in my emails somewhere. 
 

Not to mention all the fun rounds around Florida in the winter months. 

Then you should know better.

[UncleJohn’sBand]

1 minute ago, Obee said:

Then you should know better.

I do. And I know a scratch golfer ain’t beating Nelly Korda. 

[AZBRONCFAN]

Here is a bunch of scratch golfers in a local AZ am tournament over the weekend. Probably was 7200 yards. 

[Obee]

12 minutes ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

Can Davis. Damn. I forgot one. 

Look, I'll put it to you another way: If you don't think a legit scratch male is capable of shooting even par or 1 under on a course like Wilshire CC or Palos Verdes CC in LPGA Tournament conditions (and then have a top pro have a poor day and shoot 1-over on the same day) then you simply don't know this game like you (so obviously) think you do.

There is no question this will happen. It's just a question of how often. It will be relatively rare, but not "never going to happen" rare. A scratch at a course like Wilshire (which this thread STARTED with) is going to shoot something like:

77, 74, 71, 80.

That's just ... math, dude. The 74 is going to beat some players in the field. The 71 is going to beat about 40% or more players in the field on that day. It's really not that hard....

Edited to add: And he's going to get SMOKED in the tournament itself and likely miss the cut or finish near the very bottom if he happens to squeak in and make the cut, which would be rare.

Edited July 14 by Obee