Lie Boards for fitting. Are they really worthless?

[mesegrn]

Are lie boards accurate for adjusting the lie on your irons? I bought one the other day and tested all of my irons today (Mizuno standard lie). Every club I hit had a mark right on top of the number. I’m thinking I either need to go with a more upright lie or maybe longer in the shaft, or both. Should I take these results with a grain of salt?

[Cwebb]

Take the results with a grain of salt, for sure. Don't make any drastic upright lie changes on your clubs, until you have read a lot on the topic and really know that's what you want to do....

[mesegrn]

I guess it’s research time. I have a Mitchell loft and lie machine so no problem in tinkering a bit. I’m right hand dominate and I guess I thrust the toe downward during my swing. My left hand is so weak my thumb rests left of center. I have taken my hook out of my game with this technique. I would however like to hit it a little more square on the face. I might be coming inside a tad too much as well. Thanks!

[jasonp87]

Lookup howard jones method for adjusting lie...

 

Lie boards are junk

[Spooky67]

What do your divots look like?

[NPVWhiz]

I think the biggest challenge in lie angle analysis, in the absence of some type of quantitative measurement (and even then, this can be a problem), is that most players have a tendency..subconscious or otherwise, to try to hit the ball straighter. Most players that see a ball going right will make an effort to correct or modify that ball flight. Accomplished players that have spent the time and effort dialing in lie angle can often avoid this tendency and can tell when an iron is off based on the ball flight, but it is because they are wiling and able to swing and analyze what the ball flight is doing rather than swinging for an outcome. I'm a proponent of the marker on the ball approach because that at least gives you some direct data on how the attitude of the head is at impact. Looking at how consistent the measure is, whatever measure you end up using, is important as well because most players aren't consistent enough to pin lie angle down in just a few shots. They are too inconsistent with face angle and the swing generally to be able to produce data that can justify a change. The key is to really know your swing and to dial in one iron that you feel comfortable with if you have the means to bend them yourself. In that case, dial one in then go with some reasonable slope of adjustment for the rest, then look at the ends of the set to see if that slope line should be more steep or more shallow (larger increment between clubs or smaller).

[mesegrn]

Thanks for the info guys. I'm a picker of the ball for the most part. When I do take a divot it is usually not more steep on the heel or toe and about the size of a dollar bill. I'm working the next 4 days, but will start first thing Monday with dialing these in NPVWhiz. Jason, I'll also read the Howard Jones method.

[CheckJV]

There is a slow motion video somewhere that shows the induced error of a lie board due to club to ground contact. It’s pretty telling.

[campion]

I’d be interested to hear how tour pros get fit for their lie angles.those who have been fit at TPI/kingdom/ECPC how did they do their lie fitting?

[enfuego]

TXG has fitted people on a few videos by over adjusting lie to fix an over draw or fade. Not going to do a ton but if you have 5 yards of movement it can be straightened out regardless of if you come in with a perfect divot

[nsxguy]

What do your divots look like?

 

Thanks for the info guys. I'm a picker of the ball for the most part. When I do take a divot it is usually not more steep on the heel or toe and about the size of a dollar bill. I'm working the next 4 days, but will start first thing Monday with dialing these in NPVWhiz. Jason, I'll also read the Howard Jones method.

 

I think that's what Spooky was going for. If the divot is level it's a somewhat reasonable indication that your lie angle is correct.

 

I used the lie board myself and think the results are reasonably accurate. At my skill level I don't think a degree or so of lie angle would make much of a difference given I'm seldom dead straight at the flag anyway - I'm as likely to pull or push a well struck shot a degree or 5 left or right of the target regardless of the lie angle being off by a bit.

[Cwebb]

There is a slow motion video somewhere that shows the induced error of a lie board due to club to ground contact. It’s pretty telling.

 

Is this the one you're thinking of....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXBrIayM4QY

[HISPL]

Yes, lie boards are a complete waste of time for lie angle testing.

 

Whiteboard/Dry Erase marker method is much better if you are looking for a simple and cheap solution.

[CheckJV]

There is a slow motion video somewhere that shows the induced error of a lie board due to club to ground contact. It’s pretty telling.

 

Is this the one you're thinking of....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXBrIayM4QY

 

Thanks for posting. My memory is faulty. Can’t recall if that is the exact one. I do remember it was posted in a WRX forum in which Tom Wishon was participating and his reaction was interesting.

[wkuo3]

Lie board has it's merit, in golf club fitting. It's a good starting point.

We all need to remember, all these numbers and equipment and calculation.....what exactly are we trying to achieve ?

 

If the equipment gives you the trajectory and the directional control you want, then why need it on the paper to comfort your mind ?

Will all the numbers from a launch monitor giving one the confidence one needs because we don't trust our own eyes ? Need reassuring ? get those print out and stick it in the golf bag so we could pull it out and read it again every time we have a bad shot on the golf course.

we can not control the lie and the condition of every golf shots we might face on the golf course. It'll most likely not going to be a perfect lie as we test the golf club on. The leading edge grind is more important than other specs on the iron head unless, it's way off like more than a couple of degrees off with the lie angle or the wrong gap in loft between the golf clubs.....

 

In iron fitting, the shaft flex also played an important role as how the club head contacting the turf. Same length of 7 iron may produce a different contacting point on the sole with different shaft weight and flex.........

 

I would not knock down the lie board completely, as it's only one of the means of producing a desirable result. Not the final verdict. because there is no perfect fitting on paper, nor could it be produced from equipment alone.

 

Today, we are certainly not lacking information, anyone could find information somewhere, easily. What we do with the information is totally a whole other matter.

[Ri_Redneck]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

[mesegrn]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

It's interesting that you said this Redneck. When I was testing the board, I was not using a golf ball. I was just imagining it was on the board.

[Cwebb]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

It's interesting that you said this Redneck. When I was testing the board, I was not using a golf ball. I was just imagining it was on the board.

 

Be careful with that. Sometimes even when we think we're making the same swing....it's not the same as with the ball there

[mesegrn]

Lie board has it's merit, in golf club fitting. It's a good starting point.

We all need to remember, all these numbers and equipment and calculation.....what exactly are we trying to achieve ?

 

If the equipment gives you the trajectory and the directional control you want, then why need it on the paper to comfort your mind ?

Will all the numbers from a launch monitor giving one the confidence one needs because we don't trust our own eyes ? Need reassuring ? get those print out and stick it in the golf bag so we could pull it out and read it again every time we have a bad shot on the golf course.

we can not control the lie and the condition of every golf shots we might face on the golf course. It'll most likely not going to be a perfect lie as we test the golf club on. The leading edge grind is more important than other specs on the iron head unless, it's way off like more than a couple of degrees off with the lie angle or the wrong gap in loft between the golf clubs.....

 

In iron fitting, the shaft flex also played an important role as how the club head contacting the turf. Same length of 7 iron may produce a different contacting point on the sole with different shaft weight and flex.........

 

I would not knock down the lie board completely, as it's only one of the means of producing a desirable result. Not the final verdict. because there is no perfect fitting on paper, nor could it be produced from equipment alone.

 

Today, we are certainly not lacking information, anyone could find information somewhere, easily. What we do with the information is totally a whole other matter.

 

I agree with you on this topic in the fact that we do have multiple ways of measuring these things. I think I can make it have merit once I find a starting point and work from there. I actually going down stairs to make some changes and see the results with shots off of my view.

[mesegrn]

Well after using a 7 iron to test with its official! I have a funky swing! I used a lie board, impact tape and adjusted lies from standard Mizuno lie (my normal) to 3* upright. I was using the Howard Jones Method and put the heavy mark on my ball to determine impact angle on the club. Every mark made by the lie board is always on the number near the toe, no matter the lie angle. The Howard Jones mark is always on the 1* upright needed mark. I started out hitting all of my shots between center face and the toe. The only change that I made that had any effect was starting out with the ball resting in the heel of the club to get closer to a center strike. If I start out center of the club, near the toe I go. The ball did draw more with the upright lie and flatten out with the flatter lie, as you would expect. I guess I need to work on my backswing to start the club in a different downward position. More testing is definitely needed. The problem is that I usually shoot around 75 and do have some center strikes when I'm playing. I'm pretty darn consistent with my yardages and usually put the ball where I want when playing. I guess I've done it for so long, I've just adjusted to it and made it work. I'm not a monitor kind of guy and like to play off of feel. The joy of Golf!!

[Cwebb]

Some take the approach of only relying on actual ball flight and dispersion tendencies, to fit lie angle. With you being an experienced feel player, this is could be the way to go

[Fade to Black]

Was on a lie board once. Fitter inspected the iron with impact tape on the sole afterwards and looked at me with a perplexed look on his face. Showed me the club, the tape had impact mark right out on the toe and right on the heel but nothing in-between. Literally, nothing in the middle of the sole of the iron, but out on the toe and out on the heel.

 

Had no idea what to do with that. So we scrapped that plan :)

[mesegrn]

I’m glad to hear I’m not the only one Fade! I think Cwebb has the right approach. Get my ball flight down and fine tune it.

[wrmiller]

Years ago a Ping fitter had me hit golf balls w/S56s while he tinkered with different colored heads. Started with yellow (one up?) and progressed to silver dot. Every one I put a mark right in the middle of sole. He just looked at me, shook his head, and said this wasn't going to work because I was adjusting my swing for the different lie angles.

 

I told him I was a feel player... ;)

 

So no, for me personally a lie board is useless.

[Thayneil]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

It's interesting that you said this Redneck. When I was testing the board, I was not using a golf ball. I was just imagining it was on the board.

 

Be careful with that. Sometimes even when we think we're making the same swing....it's not the same as with the ball there

 

would n't you want the same swing as you use when actually hitting the ball on the course?

[nsxguy]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

[Stuart_G]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

 

I think this is the "effect" from the ball people are referring to.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/downdeflect.php

 

 

I've no proof, but in addition to that, I personally suspect folks with higher face closer rates will results in marks more toe side on a lie board.

[nsxguy]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

 

I think this is the "effect" from the ball people are referring to.

 

https://www.tutelman...downdeflect.php

 

 

I've no proof, but in addition to that, I personally suspect folks with higher face closer rates will results in marks more toe side on a lie board.

 

Thanks Stuart, very interesting. I love reading some of this stuff but i confess I can't get into the minutia.

 

But the poster I quoted seems to indicate the lie angle is affected by contact with a ball and I didn't see anything there that would confirm (or deny) that.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Lol, I love the animus on here towards a lie angle test using a board. at the very least IMHO it's quite a good indicator of how solid the mechanics of a player's swing is. most tape tests I do show patterning off the toe, and/or off the trailing edge of the iron being hit. the much, much smaller percentage of the testing shows a pattern center/or centered-heel and leading edge heavy. and in my thinking this confirms the amount of high hdcap players out there compared to much lower hdcap ones.

 

edit: bottom line, I will always perform a lie board tape test with face impact tape testing. in my estimation the result you get from one without using the other is completely inconclusive. ;)

[dunn]

Yes they are useless unless your total beginner.....

 

If you played golf off a perfectly flat Matt in a store than they would work.....

 

Check your divots on course and adjust from there....diesnt get any more real than that