Lie Boards for fitting. Are they really worthless?

[Ri_Redneck]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

Someone posted a slo-mo vid near the start of this thread that showed what happens at impact. Impact with the ball causes the shaft to bow more giving sole contact more toward the toe than is actual. Causes a misdiagnosis of needing a more upright lie.

 

These days using a line on the ball is far more accurate.

 

BT

 

[HISPL]

Yes they are useless unless your total beginner.....

 

If you played golf off a perfectly flat Matt in a store than they would work.....

 

Check your divots on course and adjust from there....diesnt get any more real than that

 

Divots and lie angle have very little correlation unless the lie angle is grossly wrong for the player.

 

Lie angle is about face plane tilt first and foremost, if this is correct you should never have to worry about turf interaction in regards to lie angle.

[Stuart_G]

Thanks Stuart, very interesting. I love reading some of this stuff but i confess I can't get into the minutia.

 

But the poster I quoted seems to indicate the lie angle is affected by contact with a ball and I didn't see anything there that would confirm (or deny) that.

 

He wasn't saying the actual like angle would change - it's only what the lie board would show that changes when a ball is involved. That web page might not mention lie boards specifically but there is plenty of proof there of what's happening when the club impacts the ball and why.

[Double Dodger]

TrackMan spin rates tell the whole story. Go out and get yourself one. HA!

[nsxguy]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

Someone posted a slo-mo vid near the start of this thread that showed what happens at impact. Impact with the ball causes the shaft to bow more giving sole contact more toward the toe than is actual. Causes a misdiagnosis of needing a more upright lie.

 

These days using a line on the ball is far more accurate.

 

BT

 

 

The line on the ball - just how "easy" is it to have that line exactly vertical ? I mean, the dial of my watch has 60 minutes on it and each one of them represents 6 degrees. And we're talking about a degree or 2. Can you be sure your line on the ball is exactly perpendicular to flat ground ? Seems pretty easy to be a single degree or 2 "off", no ?

 

The video of the first shot - the heel seems to be off the ground right before impact so the toe down effect has already happened and any lie tape on the sole should be accurate (I think).

 

2nd shot with the steel shaft is really hard to tell. Hard to tell is there is actually any bowing before the strike, but after the strike and, it appears, after the ball has already left the club face, a little (more ?) bowing is noticeable. But if the ball is already gone,,,,,,,,

 

The video seems to be showing that while there may be the slightest bowing of the shaft before impact the majority of it, and the worst of it occurs after the ball has left the club face. Also, the first one, with the graphite shaft, looks to be hit slightly to the toe side of the center of the face. Possibly less than ideal impact ?

 

And the steel shafted hit appears to be slightly outside-to-in. Would that have any effect ?

 

 

In any case, while I understand that getting the lie angle exactly right for a very good ball striker may be of (some) benefit, for the average player who finds the center of the face less than half the time and even when he does misses the target by 5 yards either side for a reason other than lie angle, the lie angle is the least of their problems.

[Stuart_G]

It's really not hard to get it vertical enough to give an accurate reading.

[Yepyukon]

I view lie boards like static fittings, they are a good start but not the end answer. I have done many fittings over the years and when I first started, I was taught with a lie board. The problem I found was the height of the board off the ground and the false impact you could get from bouncing the club off the board. So I got with another fitter and we started tinkering around with impact and fitting methods/philosophies. In the end, we came to the conclusion that fitting off preferred ball flight and impact position gave the most consistent and truest fittings.

 

My advice would be to get some shoe spray (odor eaters or whatnot) and spray the club face before you hit the ball. Look at where the ball impacts the face and see if it is consistently around center.

 

Next, take a dry erase marker and make a line on the ball. Set the line directly in the path of your impact. You should see a vertical line on your club face going straight up and down. If it is tilted slightly toward the toe or heel, you angle could be off.

 

The end matter is how you feel you make impact and is the ball doing what you want it to do. I have had people adjust their wedges flatter (so they could open them up) and their longer clubs more upright. To each their own.

 

Good luck.

[hybrid25]

As others have mentioned, your divot tells an excellent story. Depth of heal as opposed to the toe is the best test. A little imbalance is probably ok, and sometimes preferred, but it is the real test.

[nsxguy]

It's really not hard to get it vertical enough to give an accurate reading.

 

Ummmmmm, "vertical enough" ?

 

We're talking lie angle changes of 1 or 2 degrees - "considerably" less than the minute mark on my watch. :dntknw:

[HISPL]

It's really not hard to get it vertical enough to give an accurate reading.

 

Ummmmmm, "vertical enough" ?

 

We're talking lie angle changes of 1 or 2 degrees - "considerably" less than the minute mark on my watch. :dntknw:

 

It’s surprisingly easy to get it right.

 

I use a set square sometimes, but having done it for a while now (4 or so years) I don’t feel the need to drag it out to check.

 

I believe my eye able to get to between 1/4 to 1/2 of a degree these days. “Close enough” that even with some elite players I work with their swing varies more than that.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name=Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1527396457'

 

post='17415750]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

Someone posted a slo-mo vid near the start of this thread that showed what happens at impact. Impact with the ball causes the shaft to bow more giving sole contact more toward the toe than is actual. Causes a misdiagnosis of needing a more upright lie.

 

These days using a line on the ball is far more accurate.

 

BT

 

 

The line on the ball - just how "easy" is it to have that line exactly vertical ? I mean, the dial of my watch has 60 minutes on it and each one of them represents 6 degrees. And we're talking about a degree or 2. Can you be sure your line on the ball is exactly perpendicular to flat ground ? Seems pretty easy to be a single degree or 2 "off", no ?

 

The video of the first shot - the heel seems to be off the ground right before impact so the toe down effect has already happened and any lie tape on the sole should be accurate (I think).

 

2nd shot with the steel shaft is really hard to tell. Hard to tell is there is actually any bowing before the strike, but after the strike and, it appears, after the ball has already left the club face, a little (more ?) bowing is noticeable. But if the ball is already gone,,,,,,,,

 

The video seems to be showing that while there may be the slightest bowing of the shaft before impact the majority of it, and the worst of it occurs after the ball has left the club face. Also, the first one, with the graphite shaft, looks to be hit slightly to the toe side of the center of the face. Possibly less than ideal impact ?

 

And the steel shafted hit appears to be slightly outside-to-in. Would that have any effect ?

 

 

In any case, while I understand that getting the lie angle exactly right for a very good ball striker may be of (some) benefit, for the average player who finds the center of the face less than half the time and even when he does misses the target by 5 yards either side for a reason other than lie angle, the lie angle is the least of their problems.

 

Lie boards is misleading most users, sole impact marks move around depending on club psth and face angle, and we dont have control of those 2 parameters unless we are using a Trackman combined, but then we dont need a lieboard in the first place, it can done using Trackman alone like i did.

 

The safest and easiest way to judge lie angles is using the ball marker test, with or without face labels.

 

About aligning the ball....

No worries to that, if you look on my face labels you will see that the angle gear ratio is 10:1 from label to lie.

 

That means when the protractor shows 10* lie is off by 1.

 

Most of us can "Eye ball" better than 1* on the protractor, and thats 0.1* on the club.....so just allign as best as you can, its more than good enough.

[Curious]

What difference does it make when someone is working the ball deliberately? Seems to me that we are searching for the perfect illusive straight shot by finding the ideal lie angles. Played a round the other day with a pro and he worked everything from right to left including his wedges. I am guessing that if his lie angles were ill fitted he would have adjusted his aim accordingly,

[cxx]

It's really not hard to get it vertical enough to give an accurate reading.

 

Ummmmmm, "vertical enough" ?

 

We're talking lie angle changes of 1 or 2 degrees - "considerably" less than the minute mark on my watch. :dntknw:

 

I think the loft exaggerates the angle of the mark on the club face.

 

On your previous comment on how obvious or not a wrong lie angle is, you should purposely try a lie angle that is too flat and too upright. You can readily see the difference in the flight of the ball. You can compensate, but it will be uncomfortable.

[Ri_Redneck]

Ages ago, we used lie boards a lot. Just not hitting balls. You warm up hitting balls, then drop the board on the ground and make a normal swings brushing the board with no ball. the mark will be accurate instead of the toe-down stuff you get from hitting the ball while doing it.

 

BT

 

So basically you're saying that if you DO hit a ball while using the board and lie tape the ball will cause the markings on the lie tape to be incorrect, yes ?

 

Got a link for that ?

 

TIA

Someone posted a slo-mo vid near the start of this thread that showed what happens at impact. Impact with the ball causes the shaft to bow more giving sole contact more toward the toe than is actual. Causes a misdiagnosis of needing a more upright lie.

 

These days using a line on the ball is far more accurate.

 

BT

 

 

The line on the ball - just how "easy" is it to have that line exactly vertical ? I mean, the dial of my watch has 60 minutes on it and each one of them represents 6 degrees. And we're talking about a degree or 2. Can you be sure your line on the ball is exactly perpendicular to flat ground ? Seems pretty easy to be a single degree or 2 "off", no ?

 

The video of the first shot - the heel seems to be off the ground right before impact so the toe down effect has already happened and any lie tape on the sole should be accurate (I think).

 

2nd shot with the steel shaft is really hard to tell. Hard to tell is there is actually any bowing before the strike, but after the strike and, it appears, after the ball has already left the club face, a little (more ?) bowing is noticeable. But if the ball is already gone,,,,,,,,

 

The video seems to be showing that while there may be the slightest bowing of the shaft before impact the majority of it, and the worst of it occurs after the ball has left the club face. Also, the first one, with the graphite shaft, looks to be hit slightly to the toe side of the center of the face. Possibly less than ideal impact ?

 

And the steel shafted hit appears to be slightly outside-to-in. Would that have any effect ?

 

 

In any case, while I understand that getting the lie angle exactly right for a very good ball striker may be of (some) benefit, for the average player who finds the center of the face less than half the time and even when he does misses the target by 5 yards either side for a reason other than lie angle, the lie angle is the least of their problems.

 

You can get cheap plastic levels at any hardware store for around $5 if you're not able to eye-ball it. But regardless, it's all just get it close anyway. I have never worried about lie much unless it's several degrees off. Just passing on info man, don't want to argue.

 

BT

[nsxguy]

 

On your previous comment on how obvious or not a wrong lie angle is, you should purposely try a lie angle that is too flat and too upright. You can readily see the difference in the flight of the ball. You can compensate, but it will be uncomfortable.

 

I've hit plenty of irons that were a degree, sometimes 2 "off" and had no trouble finding the SS. Directionally, not much trouble compensating either. 2 degrees is very small and I don't have a consistent enough swing to "blame" the path on the club.

 

In fact, unless you're scratch or better I doubt you'd even realize you were compensating for an incorrect lie so long as the club looked "good" (or you could get used to it ?) to you at address. Consciously or unconsciously you'd work it out IMO.

 

 

 

You can get cheap plastic levels at any hardware store for around $5 if you're not able to eye-ball it. But regardless, it's all just get it close anyway. I have never worried about lie much unless it's several degrees off. Just passing on info man, don't want to argue.

 

BT

 

Not looking for an argument - just trying to understand.

 

With measurements SO small and people making such a (relatively) big deal about it the Devil is in the details. :dntknw:

[cxx]

On your previous comment on how obvious or not a wrong lie angle is, you should purposely try a lie angle that is too flat and too upright. You can readily see the difference in the flight of the ball. You can compensate, but it will be uncomfortable.

 

I've hit plenty of irons that were a degree, sometimes 2 "off" and had no trouble finding the SS. Directionally, not much trouble compensating either. 2 degrees is very small and I don't have a consistent enough swing to "blame" the path on the club.

 

In fact, unless you're scratch or better I doubt you'd even realize you were compensating for an incorrect lie so long as the club looked "good" (or you could get used to it ?) to you at address. Consciously or unconsciously you'd work it out IMO.

 

 

You can get cheap plastic levels at any hardware store for around $5 if you're not able to eye-ball it. But regardless, it's all just get it close anyway. I have never worried about lie much unless it's several degrees off. Just passing on info man, don't want to argue.

 

BT

 

Not looking for an argument - just trying to understand.

 

With measurements SO small and people making such a (relatively) big deal about it the Devil is in the details. :dntknw:

 

It's really not about finding the sweet spot (which is important but not what lie angles are about). It's about presenting the face level and true for the strike. It's really easy for me to tell when lie angles are off. If it doesn't matter to you, no worries.

[NicholasP]

Some take the approach of only relying on actual ball flight and dispersion tendencies, to fit lie angle. With you being an experienced feel player, this is could be the way to go

This is how I roll now, I simply let ball flight dictate. For example, I tend to overdraw the short irons, say 7-LW, so the 7-9 are bent 1 flat, wedges 2 flat. I have a 21 & 24 Apex UT that I play STD cause I did not have a tendency to overdraw, I think the 5 & 6 are also 1 flat. A really good fitter explained this process to me years ago, and I have been on it since.

[Howard_Jones]

On your previous comment on how obvious or not a wrong lie angle is, you should purposely try a lie angle that is too flat and too upright. You can readily see the difference in the flight of the ball. You can compensate, but it will be uncomfortable.

 

I've hit plenty of irons that were a degree, sometimes 2 "off" and had no trouble finding the SS. Directionally, not much trouble compensating either. 2 degrees is very small and I don't have a consistent enough swing to "blame" the path on the club.

 

In fact, unless you're scratch or better I doubt you'd even realize you were compensating for an incorrect lie so long as the club looked "good" (or you could get used to it ?) to you at address. Consciously or unconsciously you'd work it out IMO.

 

 

You can get cheap plastic levels at any hardware store for around $5 if you're not able to eye-ball it. But regardless, it's all just get it close anyway. I have never worried about lie much unless it's several degrees off. Just passing on info man, don't want to argue.

 

BT

 

Not looking for an argument - just trying to understand.

 

With measurements SO small and people making such a (relatively) big deal about it the Devil is in the details. :dntknw:

 

It's really not about finding the sweet spot (which is important but not what lie angles are about). It's about presenting the face level and true for the strike. It's really easy for me to tell when lie angles are off. If it doesn't matter to you, no worries.

 

Like it or not, but lie angle errors have a tendency to move impact spot, so its part off it, even if its a sub level issue.

 

During those years i worked on face labels for lie angle judgement, i startet out from a more advanced label then where it all ended.

 

The original label could under controlled conditions (Trackman assist), be used to judge Lie angle and play lenght on the same time.

 

When we adjust play lenght or lie angle, we move the club closer or further away from us, and by that we move impact position heel to toe.

 

I dropped those labels since most users dont have accsess to Trackman, and the risk for misjudgement becomes to large without, but during all testing, we could clearly se that impact moved depending on what lenght or lie angle we use on the actual club

 

That means lie angles is not only a ball flight/ spin axis issue, its involved in impact position on the face too and by that, both PTR value, ball speed and distance.

[cxx]

On your previous comment on how obvious or not a wrong lie angle is, you should purposely try a lie angle that is too flat and too upright. You can readily see the difference in the flight of the ball. You can compensate, but it will be uncomfortable.

 

I've hit plenty of irons that were a degree, sometimes 2 "off" and had no trouble finding the SS. Directionally, not much trouble compensating either. 2 degrees is very small and I don't have a consistent enough swing to "blame" the path on the club.

 

In fact, unless you're scratch or better I doubt you'd even realize you were compensating for an incorrect lie so long as the club looked "good" (or you could get used to it ?) to you at address. Consciously or unconsciously you'd work it out IMO.

 

 

You can get cheap plastic levels at any hardware store for around $5 if you're not able to eye-ball it. But regardless, it's all just get it close anyway. I have never worried about lie much unless it's several degrees off. Just passing on info man, don't want to argue.

 

BT

 

Not looking for an argument - just trying to understand.

 

With measurements SO small and people making such a (relatively) big deal about it the Devil is in the details. :dntknw:

 

It's really not about finding the sweet spot (which is important but not what lie angles are about). It's about presenting the face level and true for the strike. It's really easy for me to tell when lie angles are off. If it doesn't matter to you, no worries.

 

Like it or not, but lie angle errors have a tendency to move impact spot, so its part off it, even if its a sub level issue.

 

During those years i worked on face labels for lie angle judgement, i startet out from a more advanced label then where it all ended.

 

The original label could under controlled conditions (Trackman assist), be used to judge Lie angle and play lenght on the same time.

 

When we adjust play lenght or lie angle, we move the club closer or further away from us, and by that we move impact position heel to toe.

 

I dropped those labels since most users dont have accsess to Trackman, and the risk for misjudgement becomes to large without, but during all testing, we could clearly se that impact moved depending on what lenght or lie angle we use on the actual club

 

That means lie angles is not only a ball flight/ spin axis issue, its involved in impact position on the face too and by that, both PTR value, ball speed and distance.

 

OK. I only see my own results when checking lie angles occasionally.

 

So your new lie angle labels use ~10X for the scale, was this determined empirically? As I remember they were for a particular lofted iron (6)?

[Howard_Jones]

All testing was done with. 31 lofted club, but it seems to be good no matter loft.

 

Those 10* is the result of a quite complicated system ive explained in the treads about those labels.

 

The label "reply" with a angle value, but whats actually is measured is the distance the line crosses in a

1"x1" measure frame.

 

If the line starts toe side on the top, and has a angle against the center/heel side, we actually measure how much that line move from top to bottom.

 

1/8" = 1* on lie angle, and that line will have angle of 10* on the protractor

 

2/8" =2* on lie angle, andthat line will have angle of 20* on the protractor (57 MM protractor)

[mesegrn]

Howard, is there a chance my irons are too short if my misses are out on the toe? Assuming I not coming to inside on my follow through path?

[Howard_Jones]

Howard, is there a chance my irons are too short if my misses are out on the toe? Assuming I not coming to inside on my follow through path?

 

Yes, there is a good chance for that.

 

Try to read how the original face label works (the frame system), and see if they tell you to go longer..

 

I hope the link works, its to a post i wrote june 30. 2016

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355712-lie-angle-and-heel-to-toe-impact-position-question/#entry13841840

 

[mesegrn]

I think I'm gonna build a club +3/4 or 5/8 of an inch and trim as necessary. Thanks for the info!!

[mesegrn]

Howard, What do you think about the Mizuno fitting iron? I found one on Ebay for $10 and bought it. I think I will work with it before I build my irons.

[Howard_Jones]

Howard, What do you think about the Mizuno fitting iron? I found one on Ebay for $10 and bought it. I think I will work with it before I build my irons.

 

The lie board consept dont work, i thought ive made that clear

 

[mesegrn]

Howard, What do you think about the Mizuno fitting iron? I found one on Ebay for $10 and bought it. I think I will work with it before I build my irons.

 

The lie board consept dont work, i thought ive made that clear

 

Last time we talk it was about me going to +1/2 inch over on my irons because I was hitting it near the toe and thought I might need a longer iron. The fitting club as you know goes up to +1inch and -1inch. I was going more for length and face contact with your sticker. Nobody said anything about a lie board, so don't assume that's were I was going. I Know you post on here and answer lots of questions and we appreciate it, but come on man. You sound like my Dad! :)

[joeplus2]

I'm a feel player, my divots with standard lie irons are definitely very toe deep, the lie board has me at 2 degrees upright but I wear my hands low at address which causes the toe to be significantly off the ground. I hate the way it looks at address. Unfortunately I prefer a perfect divot over all other factors so I cope

[Superbrit]

On your previous comment on how obvious or not a wrong lie angle is, you should purposely try a lie angle that is too flat and too upright. You can readily see the difference in the flight of the ball. You can compensate, but it will be uncomfortable.

 

I've hit plenty of irons that were a degree, sometimes 2 "off" and had no trouble finding the SS. Directionally, not much trouble compensating either. 2 degrees is very small and I don't have a consistent enough swing to "blame" the path on the club.

 

In fact, unless you're scratch or better I doubt you'd even realize you were compensating for an incorrect lie so long as the club looked "good" (or you could get used to it ?) to you at address. Consciously or unconsciously you'd work it out IMO.

 

 

You can get cheap plastic levels at any hardware store for around $5 if you're not able to eye-ball it. But regardless, it's all just get it close anyway. I have never worried about lie much unless it's several degrees off. Just passing on info man, don't want to argue.

 

BT

 

Not looking for an argument - just trying to understand.

 

With measurements SO small and people making such a (relatively) big deal about it the Devil is in the details. :dntknw:

 

I have my irons 2* flat, my wedges 2.5* flat, and if i ever hit a "standard" lie i can tell straight away, 2* doesn't sound much but its very noticeable when its in front of you

[tobybear]

I'd be interested to hear how tour pros get fit for their lie angles.those who have been fit at TPI/kingdom/ECPC how did they do their lie fitting?

 

Pros and better players ( and everyone for that matter ) should get fit for lie angle using some sort of launch monitor and if possible being outside. Initial launch direction is the main data point along with overall shot shape that will help determine which lie angle is the best for each player.

 

You also want to factor in that you will hit different shots with certain clubs so its best to possibly have some sort of variable change throughout the set, especially into the wedges where with more loft, lie angle with have a larger effect on the shot direction.

 

 

A lie board with some tape can be VERY effective when used to help fit for bounce and sole shape with wedges since it cam help show where the club bottoms out. Its hard to explain but depending on there the mark shows up on the bottom of the club ie: more towards the leading or tariling edge can help determine grinds needed. This would be a small part of an overall full wedge fitting!

[HISPL]

I'd be interested to hear how tour pros get fit for their lie angles.those who have been fit at TPI/kingdom/ECPC how did they do their lie fitting?

 

Pros and better players ( and everyone for that matter ) should get fit for lie angle using some sort of launch monitor and if possible being outside. Initial launch direction is the main data point along with overall shot shape that will help determine which lie angle is the best for each player.

 

You also want to factor in that you will hit different shots with certain clubs so its best to possibly have some sort of variable change throughout the set, especially into the wedges where with more loft, lie angle with have a larger effect on the shot direction.

 

 

A lie board with some tape can be VERY effective when used to help fit for bounce and sole shape with wedges since it cam help show where the club bottoms out. Its hard to explain but depending on there the mark shows up on the bottom of the club ie: more towards the leading or tariling edge can help determine grinds needed. This would be a small part of an overall full wedge fitting!

 

I was shown how to check wedge grinds by a Titleist Tour rep using a lie board.

 

I can see the merit in it if a turf area is not available for wedge testing.

 

That is about the only use for a lie board in my opinion.