Forearm Rotation In The Downswing

[PJ1120]

I've never had much forearm rotation in the downswing resulting in the look of a scrunched lead shoulder/chicken wing look just post impact. I've been experimenting with getting more forearm rotation with that 'crossover' look post impact. When my timing is right the impact is MUCH better and I'm facing the target like I'm supposed to. When my timing is a little off I tend to hit some pulls. What are your thoughts on actively rotating the forearms?

 

PJ

[Golfbeat]

Tyler Ferrell is of the view that "you want to shallow the shaft so that you can supinate the left forearm more or harder". I would think that most of the tour players supinate the left forearm very significantly. Catching a raindrop in your left palm after impact.

[PJ1120]

Tyler Ferrell is of the view that "you want to shallow the shaft so that you can supinate the left forearm more or harder". I would think that most of the tour players supinate the left forearm very significantly. Catching a raindrop in your left palm after impact.

 

 

Exactly.....I don't see it as much different than the thought of turning the left hand knuckles down....pretty much accomplishes the same thing.

[glk]

Tyler Ferrell is of the view that "you want to shallow the shaft so that you can supinate the left forearm more or harder". I would think that most of the tour players supinate the left forearm very significantly. Catching a raindrop in your left palm after impact.

 

 

Exactly.....I don't see it as much different than the thought of turning the left hand knuckles down....pretty much accomplishes the same thing.

Depends on what goes on before this happen. Folks that are steep, EE and flip are doing it naturally also but are mostly doing it from having the trail shoulder go internal and early straigtening of the trail elbow - do that and then actively add a forearm crossover and it's a recipe to hit it left of left or right of right.

[glk]

Tyler Ferrell is of the view that "you want to shallow the shaft so that you can supinate the left forearm more or harder". I would think that most of the tour players supinate the left forearm very significantly. Catching a raindrop in your left palm after impact.

Tyler in one of his videos talks about ams getting about 50* of supination while pros have been measured between 75* up to 95*. And that would be from setup position as the zero point.

[smdykas]

I started doing this after watching Monte's Drive4Dough video series. Completely changed my golf game. The best single swing thought I have.

[yellowballs]

I started doing this after watching Monte's Drive4Dough video series. Completely changed my golf game. The best single swing thought I have.

Started doing what?

[WILDTHING]

I think maybe Sasho could be misinterpreting his 'right' (ie. he is a lefty) arm swing only 'feel' by thinking that 'shallowing' cured him of those weak fades (see 15:40 - 16:41 in the below video) .

 

Imho, it could be the movement of his right arm being pitched closer to his body that evoked the RYKE effect. That is where the energy of a double-pendulum gets transformed into a conical pendulum , and some of that energy is used to help rotate his 'right' forearm. Although he is an expert physicist ,maybe he needs to review the physics and maths of the Ryke effect before assuming that 'shallowing' of the clubshaft was the real reason for curing those 'weak fades'.

 

http://youtu.be/iuJaSM7Kexw

 

 

Further , it seems that others have used what he said on this video to promote shallowing into their swing actions plus incorporating this 'motorcyle' (Twistaway) move. Unless you are 100% certain about cause and effect , isn't this just another best guess? I've already mentioned another possible way to square the club using the Ryke effect but maybe both the shallowing and the Ryke effect are somehow connected. It really needs more investigation before advising/instructing golfers to do this or that move/action.

[Hot Rod 71]

 

[Golfbeat]

Tyler Ferrell is of the view that "you want to shallow the shaft so that you can supinate the left forearm more or harder". I would think that most of the tour players supinate the left forearm very significantly. Catching a raindrop in your left palm after impact.

 

This was the video where he talks about the supination connected with shallowing.

 

[WILDTHING]

'Tyler Ferrell' Versus 'Ryke Effect'.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyeDPyfex9M

 

 

Note that there is no active rotation of the model's forearm , it is made to rotate as the transverse force knocks the model off its double pendulum plane. It gets converted to a conical pendulum and some of the energy of the double pendulum can get used to rotate the arm (ie. the forearm of a real golfer)

 

In the real swing , the lead arm is moved closer to the body during the late downswing before the 'singularity' is reached (ie. explained in the below video). That singularity is the limit to how much you can ulnar deviate your lead wrist and your body will subconsciously not want to reach that limitation unless you want to damage something. Once you move that lead arm closer to the body, the Ryke effect is evoked and it helps rotate your lead forearm. 3D AMM would probably show the large supination on its sensors and assume that the golfer is actively using his forearm muscles , but that might not be the case if the forearms are being made to rotate by outside factors (like the moment of inertia of the conical pendulum).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMkAoT1YLGE

 

Kevin Ryan is investigating what the biomechanics are for the pitching of the lead arm closer to the body (plus address other golf swing attributes that we see in the pros). Imho, its the lead shoulder going up and back which causes the lead arm to move closer to the body and that evokes the Ryke effect.

 

I've tried to rationalise the physics with Kevin Ryan below:

 

"Dear Kevin - Are you saying that this 'Transverse Force' is caused by the lowering of the arms from a steeper plane to a shallower plane in the downswing? That the bigger the hand drop ( the golf grip being moved towards the body) the bigger the 'Transverse Force' ? That this changes the geometry of the system where the inertial mass of the clubhead will now start swinging around the longitudinal axis of model 'forearm' in a conical fashion. So the Transverse force has caused a change to a conical path with a secondary increase in the tension of the 2nd arm (ie. the model 'clubshaft') which creates an upward force component on the clubhead (therefore negating the double pendulum 'down' force in its own plane)? That most of the kinetic energy of the clubhead will now be transformed from a double pendulum to conical pendulum motion , but with the added benefit of assisting the squaring of the clubface using less supinatory muscle power in the lead forearm?"

 

Reply from Kevin Ryan:

"I could not have explained the physics any better than you have. For clarification the reference plane is the vertical z axis. Then the arms move from a steeper to a shallower plane. This has been shown by Coleman and Rankin. "A three-dimensional examination of the planar nature of the golf swing."

[Golfbeat]

Are there instructors who are putting the Ryke effect in practice?

[WILDTHING]

Are there instructors who are putting the Ryke effect in practice?

 

Not as far as I am aware. Kevin Ryan says he is close to finding all the biomechanics involved to evoke it and will then publish his book (with drills on how to efficiently evoke it).

 

I've been looking at Ben Hogan chipping/pitching technique and imho, he is evoking a mini- Ryke effect.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFIcuIkotpo

[Golfbeat]

Hard to say whether his forearms rotate passively or actively. If I understand the Ryke effect correctly then amateurs don't rotate their forearms correctly and passively because their left arm does not move close enough to their body?

[WILDTHING]

Hard to say whether his forearms rotate passively or actively. If I understand the Ryke effect correctly then amateurs don't rotate their forearms correctly and passively because their left arm does not move close enough to their body?

 

Yes, that seems to be the way to evoke it and it doesn't take much of a 'transverse' force to knock the double pendulum of its plane so it won't be a big pitch move of the arm closer to the body.

[Hot Rod 71]

It seems to me this is what Mike Malaska teaches. His famous saying is "from the top of the back-swing, the hands go down and the club head goes out".

 

Its been my experience that in order to get the club head working out as Mike says, it takes lead forearm rotation toward the target and moving the hands and arms toward the body.

 

A good explanation and visual of the forearm rotation and hands moving closer to the body at 3:00.

 

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The hands go down and club head goes out lesson.

 

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[WILDTHING]

Its not really the Malaska move because the Ryke effect takes place closer to the singularity after P6. Malaska seems to be promoting an 'active beta torque' well before P6 (looks like a tumbling over move but maybe it only feels that way).

 

Remember you still need clubhead speed as the lead wrist uncocks (ie. the driven double pendulum model) , then closer to the 'singularity' the transverse force (whenever Kevin Ryan defines how that it is done biomechanically) pitches your lead arm steeper and evokes the Ryke effect (conical pendulum). The point when you actually evoke the Ryke effect is based somewhat on your intended angle formed between the lead arm and clubshaft at impact. For example , Sergio Garcia has a smaller angle between the clubshaft and lead arm than Stenson , therefore the creation of the 'conical pendulum' will be slightly earlier (maybe P6) for Sergio compared to say P6.5 for Stenson.

[Golf nerd]

The double pendulum is far to simple to explain the complex structure of both arms. In this clip Tom Bertrand talks about the role of the left humerus bone turning, which the Ryke effect video leaves out. If one turns his upper arm in the shoulder socket that can have an effect on the forearm rotation. Overall the Ryke effect clip is a very good finding. Thanks for posting!

 

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[Silky]

There is a far simpler explanation - forces acting on solid body at a point offset from the center of mass causing rotation of the solid body. In our case, the solid body is the golf club, the forces are from the motion of the lead shoulder through the lead arm creating passive torques for club rotations at the lead wrist for the unhinging (alpha torque) and supinating (beta torque).

[WILDTHING]

The double pendulum is far to simple to explain the complex structure of both arms. In this clip Tom Bertrand talks about the role of the left humerus bone turning, which the Ryke effect video leaves out. If one turns his upper arm in the shoulder socket that can have an effect on the forearm rotation. Overall the Ryke effect clip is a very good finding. Thanks for posting!

 

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This is an interesting video which I've never seen before (thanks for posting) . It could explain the biomechanics of that 'transverse' force although Kevin Ryan seems to imply that the right arm has an important role. He has taken several extra years to try and figure this out using his computer modelling software so its obvious that the biomechanics for evoking the Ryke effect is not that easy to figure out.

[WILDTHING]

There is a far simpler explanation - forces acting on solid body at a point offset from the center of mass causing rotation of the solid body. In our case, the solid body is the golf club, the forces are from the motion of the lead shoulder through the lead arm creating passive torques for club rotations at the lead wrist for the unhinging (alpha torque) and supinating (beta torque).

 

Yes , that seems to be the simplest and easiest way to swing the golf club which is why I thought that lead shoulder going up and back (in reaction to the pivot) might be the answer to that 'transverse' force. If you imagined what the ' lead arm/club unit ' looks like from a DTL view swinging down on a certain pitch angle (from a face-on view it would like a flying wedge). Then imagine a force being applied 'up' and slightly back on the top tip of that wedge (ie . at the shoulder joint) , where the force vector is directed between your body and the plane of that flying wedge. It would cause a moment of force (through the COM of your arm/club unit) towards the body and that's what I envisage as the transverse force.

[Golfbeat]

I have always thought that the left shoulder up, in, and back (together with the pelvis kick) is what truly sets the pros apart from the amateurs.

[Silky]

I have always thought that the left shoulder up, in, and back (together with the pelvis kick) is what truly sets the pros apart from the amateurs.

 

I am not trained in mechanics and have difficulty trying to understand its application in a golf swing. This is my best attempt to understand forearm rotation with passive torque.

 

For this let project the golf swing onto the ground like the sun is right overhead and we are analyzing the shadow. At P6, the clubhead and the hands should be the same distance from the target line, that is the club shaft is parallel to the target line. Before P6, the clubhead should be further away from the target line than the hands and after P6, the clubhead should be closer to the target line than the hands. To create the torque to crank the rotation of the club around the hands, there should be a force component to accelerate the hands forward before P6, and then put on a brake or a force component to accelerate the hands backward or have a backward motion of the lead shoulder as you describe. The sequential application of countering forces, forward then backward acceleration is how to crank the rotation of the club around the hands. Same analysis could be done for vertical force components to crank the unc0cking the wrist, that is the upward motion of the lead shoulder.

 

There should be a theorem in mechanics that for a 3-d mechanical system, its projection onto 2-d space is also a valid mechanical system. or even a projection onto 1 d space. In that case, we have the snapping of a wet towel as the example of the sequential application of countering forces.

[PJ1120]

You guys are a lot smarter than me. Would you say the "scrunched left shoulder" I mentioned in the OP is due to the left shoulder moving up but not back?

[Golfbeat]

You guys are a lot smarter than me. Would you say the "scrunched left shoulder" I mentioned in the OP is due to the left shoulder moving up but not back?

 

Possibly, the tell tale sign of doing it correctly is having a fairly straight left arm (and right arm) and a fairly flat left wrist at P8 (club shaft parallel to the ground in follow through). Many people will not have their left shoulder back and in enough. There is often too much up. At least, this is my own observation.

[Silky]

You guys are a lot smarter than me. Would you say the "scrunched left shoulder" I mentioned in the OP is due to the left shoulder moving up but not back?

 

I think the left shoulder moving up and back away from the target line after P6 provides the passive torque to crank the supination rotation too. Oh yes, the moment arm is longest in this case.

 

I would love to see 3-d data on net force at the hands and lead shoulder.

[glk]

To me, this RYKE effect is a bunch of bunk.

 

He claims to have add 60 meters to his swing, accuracy is increased, ams use double pendulum, but pro's the ryke.

 

No data or papers on those claims.

 

He cannot explain how one achieves the ryke effect yet pro's do it and ams don't. Yet he somehow improved his swing to the tune of a 60 meter increase in distance.

 

And then we have this video where Stricker is held to be the ideal ryke effect guy who has no change in his wrist angles throughout his swing!!! Stricker has significant hinging and extension in his wrists.

 

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And Shasho's model has major details - modelling the human body in a golf swing is really, really hard and not just some pendulum with a swivel.

As summarized by tutlelman here - https://www.tutelman...ing/models3.php

Complete paper on model here - http://people.stfx.c... golf swing.pdf

[WILDTHING]

To me, this RYKE effect is a bunch of bunk.

 

He claims to have add 60 meters to his swing, accuracy is increased, ams use double pendulum, but pro's the ryke.

 

No data or papers on those claims.

 

He cannot explain how one achieves the ryke effect yet pro's do it and ams don't. Yet he somehow improved his swing to the tune of a 60 meter increase in distance.

 

And then we have this video where Stricker is held to be the ideal ryke effect guy who has no change in his wrist angles throughout his swing!!! Stricker has significant hinging and extension in his wrists.

 

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And Shasho's model has major details - modelling the human body in a golf swing is really, really hard and not just some pendulum with a swivel.

As summarized by tutlelman here - https://www.tutelman...ing/models3.php

Complete paper on model here - http://people.stfx.c... golf swing.pdf

 

You can ask Kevin Ryan about his claims if you wish (he does answer comments on his You Tube videos). How do we know if he only drove the ball 120m with his driver using the double pendulum model and then improved by another 60m using the Ryke effect? He is in his 70's but he seems to be very knowledgeable about engineering and modelling systems

 

He is using Steve Stricker to demonstrate the golf swing as a conical pendulum ,not a double-pendulum but he does show the Ryke effect happening in other golfers (in the first video I posted from 09:38 onwards).

 

The physics gets a bit complicated but it does make sense although he has got problems explaining Sadlowski's swing and equating it with upper limits of lead arm angular velocity (using his modelling software).

 

I'm convinced there is a singularity (the ulnar deviation restriction) that we humans try to avoid plus we have to use a conical pendulum action to get the clubface square at impact (if we have any angle less than 180 degrees between lead arm and clubshaft ).

[Golfbeat]

Talking about forearm rotation, watch where his left elbow is pointing. It is pointing to the target at the moment of impact. You guys can do this?

[WILDTHING]

Here is Jamie Sadlowski who imho is trying to avoid that ulnar deviation singularity (only because he's so darn flexible that he can). He doesn't seem to be using the Ryke effect because he has a very strong grip and doesn't need to supinate his lead arm/forearm as much. Plus the angle between his lead arm and clubshaft is almost a straight line at impact (ie. from a DTL view - not shown in this video). He seems to be swinging on a driven double pendulum plane but look how he seems to avoid that singularity by chicken winging his lead elbow almost all the way into the follow-through.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ0dNIP-yoU

 

So if you have a strong grip is there any point in shallowing the clubshaft that would assist supination of the lead forearm to square clubface by impact ? What would be the point if you've set your grip up to avoid too much supination in the first place? Further , I suspect there would be little need for the 'motorcycle move'. But the drawback with a strong grip is that you limit the use of the Ryke effect if you also stretch out your arms and clubshaft out so much that they are almost in a straight line at impact . But you'd better watch out for that singularity because (imho) unless your as flexible as Sadloswki (ie. chicken winging without any strain through impact) you will probably rotate that lead forearm very quickly to avoid 'hitting that singularity wall' and hit snap hooks.