Question about ball position next to hazard.

[Jackal]

My Son and I were playing yesterday and his ball hit the green and backed up off of it.

The green is elevated about 4 foot, and has water in front of it.

There is a retaining wall to keep your ball from backing up into the water.

His ball stopped on top of that wall.

What is the ruling?

He didn't want to hit his irons off of the wall.

He took an unplayable lie and move the ball left onto a grassy area that was no closer to the hole\green.

Being unplayable, he took 1 stroke.

[SNIPERBBB]

You can get relief from the obstruction.

[davep043]

The answer depends on whether the wall is inside the hazard or not. Most times in similar situations, I've seen the stakes and/or painted line on the golf-course side of the wall, putting the wall within the hazard. In that case, he has the standard hazard choices http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-26:

play it as it lies

drop in a location so that the place where the ball entered the hazard is between you and the hole (typically behind the hazard), add a penalty stroke

replay the previous shot, add a penalty stroke.

drop within two clublengths of the spot where the ball entered the hazard (later hazard only, red stakes), add a penalty stroke

 

If the walls is NOT inside the hazard, its an obstruction, and he would get free relief. He would drop within one clublength of the point that gives him full relief, and is not closer to the hole. http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-24

[Jackal]

They didn't have this marked.

It just looks like the wall is to keep the green and surrounding area from falling into the water.

I'll try to get a pic of it and I'll place a ball where his was.

It was too busy yesterday to get a pic of it.

Thanks for the replies!

[SNIPERBBB]

Our course paints the hazard line on the water side of the wall so it's not universal

[Stuart_G]

If the walls is NOT inside the hazard, its an obstruction, and he would get free relief. He would drop within one clublength of the point that gives him full relief, and is not closer to the hole. http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-24

 

Just to be complete - it's not the location of the wall relative to hazard line that determines if he can get free relief - but where the ball is relative to the hazard line. Ball inside the hazard, no relief under 24-2, ball outside then you can. The location of the wall relative to the hazard line doesn't play a part in the determination. Yes, in this particular case they are the same (due to the ball being on the hazard) but in many similar situations they wont be.

 

Also, that's assuming the obstruction has not been declared an integral part of the course in the local rules. I don't think that's common for such retaining walls - but it can happen.

[Jackal]

Ok. I'll ask the greenskeeper.

Usually they go to him about the tournament decisions.

Thanks again.

[Sawgrass]

If the walls is NOT inside the hazard, its an obstruction, and he would get free relief. He would drop within one clublength of the point that gives him full relief, and is not closer to the hole. http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-24

 

Just to be complete - it's not the location of the wall relative to hazard line that determines if he can get free relief - but where the ball is relative to the hazard line. Ball inside the hazard, no relief under 24-2, ball outside then you can. The location of the wall relative to the hazard line doesn't play a part in the determination. Yes, in this particular case they are the same (due to the ball being on the hazard) but in many similar situations they wont be.

 

Also, that's assuming the obstruction has not been declared an integral part of the course in the local rules. I don't think that's common for such retaining walls - but it can happen.

The Hard Card for New York's Metropolitan Golf Association tournaments defines stone walls which are with hazard margins to be integral parts of the course. (The major consequence of which is that there is no free relief even if your ball is near the wall and outside the hazard.)

[Stuart_G]

The Hard Card for New York's Metropolitan Golf Association tournaments defines stone walls which are with hazard margins to be integral parts of the course. (The major consequence of which is that there is no free relief even if your ball is near the wall and outside the hazard.)

 

Sounds like a good reason to live in CT :-)

[Sawgrass]

The Hard Card for New York's Metropolitan Golf Association tournaments defines stone walls which are with hazard margins to be integral parts of the course. (The major consequence of which is that there is no free relief even if your ball is near the wall and outside the hazard.)

 

Sounds like a good reason to live in CT :-)

HaHa!

 

My USGA hard card says the same thing. Good reason to live in Great Britain?

[Stuart_G]

Sounds like a good reason to live in CT :-)

HaHa!

 

My USGA hard card says the same thing. Good reason to live in Great Britain?

 

:-)

 

Maybe. Hadn't noticed it previously (don't usually play in the state events) but the NHGA hard card says the same thing as well.

 

I guess it's a lot more common than I thought.

[dormie1360]

Sounds like a good reason to live in CT :-)

HaHa!

 

My USGA hard card says the same thing. Good reason to live in Great Britain?

 

:-)

 

Maybe. Hadn't noticed it previously (don't usually play in the state events) but the NHGA hard card says the same thing as well.

 

I guess it's a lot more common than I thought.

 

Thread creep. I have a good friend that belongs to Wentworth by the Sea. In Rye. You don't play there by chance, do you?

[Newby]

Our course paints the hazard line on the water side of the wall so it's not universal

 

This can be very confusing. Say the wall is 6" wide and the line takes 2" at the water edge, a ball in the middle of the wall but just touching the line is in the WH (no relief) but a ball not quite touching is not (free relief).

 

Yesterday I officiated at a course where a similar WH had a couple of yellow stakes with black tops indicating the presence of a WH but the Local Rule said that a ball is only in that WH if it has fallen off the edge into the water. Very easy to understand but of doubtful legitimacy.

[SNIPERBBB]

Perhaps, but our retaining walls are aluminum,not exactly level, and above the most of the nearby ground so that the odds of a ball settling on the wall are astronomical.

[Newby]

Perhaps, but our retaining walls are aluminum,not exactly level, and above the most of the nearby ground so that the odds of a ball settling on the wall are astronomical.

So a ball touching the outside of the wall is not in the WH and relief is available?

[SNIPERBBB]

Correct for our course yes, assuming you mean outside the hazard.

[Jackal]

Perhaps, but our retaining walls are aluminum,not exactly level, and above the most of the nearby ground so that the odds of a ball settling on the wall are astronomical.

So a ball touching the outside of the wall is not in the WH and relief is available?

This is something I was wondering, too.

Thanks for clearing that up.

We asked the greenskeeper today and he told us "Since the wall actually goes down im the water, it has always been considered part of the hazard".

 

 

Take an unplayable lie, or hit it off of the wall.

There is a 2 inch lip between the top of the wall and the grass surrounding the green.

This is supposed to keep the balls from rolling back into the water.

I'm thinking if your ball rolls back against this wall, it is an immovable obstruction, and you get a free drop.

[Sawgrass]

Perhaps, but our retaining walls are aluminum,not exactly level, and above the most of the nearby ground so that the odds of a ball settling on the wall are astronomical.

So a ball touching the outside of the wall is not in the WH and relief is available?

This is something I was wondering, too.

Thanks for clearing that up.

We asked the greenskeeper today and he told us "Since the wall actually goes down im the water, it has always been considered part of the hazard".

 

 

Take an unplayable lie, or hit it off of the wall.

There is a 2 inch lip between the top of the wall and the grass surrounding the green.

This is supposed to keep the balls from rolling back into the water.

I'm thinking if your ball rolls back against this wall, it is an immovable obstruction, and you get a free drop.

This description is not clear to me, but I will say that if a ball simply touches a hazard line it is therefore in the hazard.

[Stuart_G]

Thread creep. I have a good friend that belongs to Wentworth by the Sea. In Rye. You don't play there by chance, do you?

 

No. I'm located a little over 100 miles North west of there on the other side of the state. Although I do get down to the coast fairly frequently to play. It's sort of a halfway point for my brother (in southern Maine) and me to meet and play together but I believe Wentworth is a private course so haven't had the chance to play there. Fortunately lots of other good quality courses in the area: Portsmouth, Breakfast Hill, Pease, Oaks, Ledges, Links at Outlook, Candia, ...

[rogolf]

Perhaps, but our retaining walls are aluminum,not exactly level, and above the most of the nearby ground so that the odds of a ball settling on the wall are astronomical.

So a ball touching the outside of the wall is not in the WH and relief is available?

This is something I was wondering, too.

Thanks for clearing that up.

We asked the greenskeeper today and he told us "Since the wall actually goes down im the water, it has always been considered part of the hazard".

 

 

Take an unplayable lie, or hit it off of the wall.

There is a 2 inch lip between the top of the wall and the grass surrounding the green.

This is supposed to keep the balls from rolling back into the water.

I'm thinking if your ball rolls back against this wall, it is an immovable obstruction, and you get a free drop.

Just to support what Sawgrass has said - your super said that the wall is part of the water hazard, therefore any ball touching the wall is in the water hazard and there is no free relief from immovable obstructions when the ball lies in the water hazard. Unplayable is not an option for a ball in a water hazard - play it as it lies or proceed under one of the options of the water hazard Rule.

[Stuart_G]

We asked the greenskeeper today and he told us "Since the wall actually goes down im the water, it has always been considered part of the hazard".

 

Sounds to me more like an opinion than a course set-up decision by any "committee". But the real question is whether the course is willing to back that up with proper markings (or as a minimum a note in the local rules)?

 

P.S. Isn't there a decision on how to proceed when there are no markings? Only had time for a quick look but couldn't find it.

[Colin L]

P.S. Isn't there a decision on how to proceed when there are no markings? Only had time for a quick look but couldn't find it.

 

You don't really need to go further than the definition of a water hazard but 26/3 confirms.

[SNIPERBBB]

26/3

Unmarked Water Hazard

Q. An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left-hand margin is out of bounds. Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b. A player’s ball comes to rest in the ditch. Is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?

 

A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards – see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).

 

And the guidance on where those lines should be.

 

 

33-2a/4

Where to Place Lines or Stakes Defining Margin of Water Hazard

Lines and stakes defining the margins of a water hazard should be placed as nearly as possible along the natural limits of the hazard, i.e., where the ground breaks down to form the depression containing the water. See also Decision 26-1/19

[Stuart_G]

33-2a/4

Where to Place Lines or Stakes Defining Margin of Water Hazard

Lines and stakes defining the margins of a water hazard should be placed as nearly as possible along the natural limits of the hazard, i.e., where the ground breaks down to form the depression containing the water. See also Decision 26-1/19

 

Thanks - yes that's the one (or the referenced 26-1/19) I was thinking of. All other places use the word "margin" without actually defining it outside the context of the markings.

 

 

Oh well, the actual point being that lacking any markings, I would interpret the "natural margin" to be the outside edge of the obstruction and thus it would be outside the hazard (again - just my interpretation).

[Jackal]

Here are some pics of the wall.

 

 

[LeoLeo99]

I think your son took an illegal drop. Make him mow the lawn.

[Jackal]

 

 

I think your son took an illegal drop. Make him mow the lawn.

 

Lol!!

Since we didn't know, he took unplayable lie and added a stroke.

We always do the "when in doubt, penalize yourself. Then if it's different you're ok.".

[LeoLeo99]

I think your son took an illegal drop. Make him mow the lawn.

 

Lol!!

Since we didn't know, he took unplayable lie and added a stroke.

We always do the "when in doubt, penalize yourself. Then if it's different you're ok.".

 

He's not ok. He wasn't eligible to take the drop where he did. It's either play as it lies on the wall or back to the fairway in line with the flagstick and ball and cross the hazard again or back to his previous location.

[LeoLeo99]

33-2a/4

Where to Place Lines or Stakes Defining Margin of Water Hazard

Lines and stakes defining the margins of a water hazard should be placed as nearly as possible along the natural limits of the hazard, i.e., where the ground breaks down to form the depression containing the water. See also Decision 26-1/19

 

Thanks - yes that's the one (or the referenced 26-1/19) I was thinking of. All other places use the word "margin" without actually defining it outside the context of the markings.

 

 

Oh well, the actual point being that lacking any markings, I would interpret the "natural margin" to be the outside edge of the obstruction and thus it would be outside the hazard (again - just my interpretation).

 

Based on the pictures, I'd say that since the bottom of the wall is in the hazard then then the top of the wall is also in the hazard.

[sui generis]

I think your son took an illegal drop. Make him mow the lawn.

 

Lol!!

Since we didn't know, he took unplayable lie and added a stroke.

We always do the "when in doubt, penalize yourself. Then if it's different you're ok.".

 

Better yet, if we're talking about stroke play, teach him how to use Rule 3-3.

http://www.usga.org/...ml#!rule-03,3-3

 

Four “musts” for a successful R3-3

Before making a stroke at either ball, the player:

1 Must announce intention to play a second ball, and

2 Must announce which ball they wish to count, and

3 Must hole out both balls, and

4 Must inform the Committee.