Is Too Much Attention Spent On Swing Mechanics (at the amateur level)

[GungHoGolf]

 

 

Who is CPG?

 

Club Pro Guy. Had a stellar career as a pro on the Mexican mini-Tour. Google him.

 

His sweaty grind through El Chapo’s Taint was the stuff of legends.

[johnrobison]

I would say not enough. Amateurs techniques aren't very good and without conscious effort into changing/improving that technique they won't get much better. I think the goal is to make a subconscious swing that is good enough for that particular person. If that person is happy with their handicap they MIGHT be able to get the most out of their current handicap without technical thoughts, but they will never make a big jump in their handicap level.

THIS!

 

A good swing requires proper mechanics. You can't just imagine yourself into changing and improving them.

[dhc1]

Swing your own swing is probably a good mantra for sub 10 handicappers who want to enjoy themselves every weekend.

 

The majority of amateur golfers own swings are so bad that they still struggle to play bogey golf with a great short game. You gotta remember that anyone shooting mid 80's is a great amateur golfer statistically speaking, and by far don't represent the whole.

 

YMMV.

 

True but those who shoot mid 80's are usually not happy with their game. This is the group I'm talking about. Shooting mid 80's probably means your swing is good enough, so it's time to start searching elsewhere.

 

Good enough for what ? To play the best golf you are capable of ?

 

Good enough to stop working on mechanics and start working on placing your focus somewhere else. Like maybe a trigger to start the swing, but after that the mind is focused on something consistent every time and it's got nothing to do with mechanics.

Infact any focus on mechanics would result in a unsequenced non athletic poorly timed swing, robbing speed, distance and accuracy.

If you are somehow good enough to play golf while juggling mechanical thoughts and regularly shoot mid 80's, I believe you could be one of the best golfers in your area and flirt with shooting even par once you understand how to place your mind.

 

Just to be clear, you think that improving the mental focus on a mid 80s player would lower his average score by 10 strokes so that he's flirting with even par?

[dap]

I would say not enough. Amateurs techniques aren't very good and without conscious effort into changing/improving that technique they won't get much better. I think the goal is to make a subconscious swing that is good enough for that particular person. If that person is happy with their handicap they MIGHT be able to get the most out of their current handicap without technical thoughts, but they will never make a big jump in their handicap level.

THIS!

 

A good swing requires proper mechanics. You can't just imagine yourself into changing and improving them.

It's good in theory but most amateurs aren't going to improve their techniques significantly unless they are prepared to put in the time and effort a pro would. How many ams do you think is going to be able to swing like a pro with minimal lessons and practice hours, not to mention willing to lose money to their playing buddies for a year before getting better?

 

Those one lesson aha moments don't last. I agree with Monte permanent significant improvement to technique takes a long time and a lot of effort most ams just don't have the resources.

 

[jbw749]

I would say not enough. Amateurs techniques aren’t very good and without conscious effort into changing/improving that technique they won’t get much better. I think the goal is to make a subconscious swing that is good enough for that particular person. If that person is happy with their handicap they MIGHT be able to get the most out of their current handicap without technical thoughts, but they will never make a big jump in their handicap level.

 

Conscious effort into changing technique when? During a round of golf? It sounds like your saying your mechanical techniques would work better than the students subconscious while playing, because you said they potentially wouldn't get to their lowest handicap without technical thoughts.

 

[Krt22]

I don't think anyone is saying these changes are due to occur while playing a round, although better fundamental understanding of the swing mechanics can be a round saver.

[TB07]

I would say not enough. Amateurs techniques aren’t very good and without conscious effort into changing/improving that technique they won’t get much better. I think the goal is to make a subconscious swing that is good enough for that particular person. If that person is happy with their handicap they MIGHT be able to get the most out of their current handicap without technical thoughts, but they will never make a big jump in their handicap level.

 

Conscious effort into changing technique when? During a round of golf? It sounds like your saying your mechanical techniques would work better than the students subconscious while playing, because you said they potentially wouldn't get to their lowest handicap without technical thoughts.

 

Swing your swing all you want it won’t make you MUCH better unless you already have a really good swing and lots of potential. The “average” person does swing their own swing regardless of what they THINK about while they swing. Rarely does the average person actually change their motion.

[Swingman420]

I’d say the average person tries to hit golf balls their way. I wouldnt say they swing.

Body wise the mechanics are infinite. Every golfer produces the motion their way. You got stack and tilt then Leo Diegel who shot many rounds in the seventies just using his right leg.

Open stance, closed, weak grip, strong grip, baseball grip, diff arm moves, shoulder angles etc

There’s a fundamental difference between working by club feel and working connect the dots. Every golfer needs to make s choice for themselves which way to go.

 

 

[wadesworld]

Just to be clear, you think that improving the mental focus on a mid 80s player would lower his average score by 10 strokes so that he's flirting with even par?

 

Yes. It's not an overnight transition, but it can happen.

 

If you focus on the proper task, give up control and maintain that focus, more often than not you will hit a quality golf shot. Your brain knows how to do it, if you let it.

 

Don't misunderstand me, you have to have some technical fundamentals. You have to have a proper grip so the club can hinge. You have to allow the club to swing with enough width. You have to start in an address position that will allow you to execute the task.

 

But once you have those fundamentals down, focusing on right task will solve many, many swing flaws all on its own. The swing flaws are the symptom, not the disease. As an example, think about the common over-the-top problem that plagues most newer golfers. If your focus is on throwing the club to a target, you WILL NOT come of the top. You can't. You'd throw it into the ground. But rather than teaching students to focus on the feel of a club throw, most pros will draw lines on a monitor to show us how under the plane and inside we are. Then they'll setup swim noodles and put a shoebox outside our ball. Then they'll say "do this drill 3 times a week every week for 12-18 months and you'll have ingrained the right move." "What, it's not working? Oh..that's your fault. You're not committed enough."

 

What some of you are not understanding is there are people in the world that have taken many dozens of lessons, including from highly acclaimed teaching pros. They did the drills. The improvement would come, but it would quickly disappear. Why? Not because of a lack of commitment. Rather, because of a fundamental disconnect.

 

In my own personal case, in all my years of lessons, not a single conventional pro ever said anything to me about allowing the club to swing utilizing gravity. Thus, throughout most of my life, I tried to shove the club back and forth with my muscles. I was never told it wasn't my job to hit the ball. So, I made an ill-timed, awkward, massively over-the-top swing at the ball for most of my life.

 

Pros would always identify the correct flaws. My takeaway was too inside. I was too over the top. My club face was too open. I was going left at impact.

 

They'd give me drills. "Feel like you're shaking hands in the takeaway." "Hit the inside part of the ball." "Bump your left hip to start the downswing." But all they resulted in was the proverbial unfolding lawn chair. With all of these body part focuses, I made a very confused swing. On occasion, I'd hit the ball better, but I didn't know why, or how to do it again.

 

It wasn't until an unconventional pro alerted my idiot self to the fact that I WAS supposed to allow the club to swing utilizing gravity and I was not supposed to try to hit the ball that I saw actual, sustainable improvement. Feeling those feelings for the first time was like a bomb going off. Holy CRAP. I've been doing it SO wrong for all these years. THIS is what all those good golfers have been feeling. No wonder I could never make progress. It's like I was trying to cut down a tree with a toothbrush.

 

The conventional pros analysis of the problems was spot on. It was their lack of understanding WHY I had those problems that was at fault. I didn't take the club too far inside because it was a bad habit that had to be broken through 12-18 months of drills. I took the club too far inside because I was trying to hit the ball.

 

But it's really, really hard to get a golfer who learned via the conventional route to consider the fact there may be a different way. It's probably even harder to convince a golf pro. They learned via drills, their mentor taught them via drills, they've helped some golfers improve via drills, so by god, drills are the correct way, end of discussion.

 

Obviously there are people who can use conventional instruction methods and have success. The large numbers of single-digit handicaps in the world are proof of that. However, I contend there's an even larger number of people who don't have success. They take the same lessons. They do the same drills. But when they fail, they get the blame. Maybe, just maybe it's the instructor's failure to identify these fundamental disconnects that is at fault. It's like telling someone to dig a hole, then blaming them when the hole didn't get dug, but you never asked them if they know how to use a shovel.

 

Finally, let me say that even using unconventional instruction still requires repetition to improve to a very high level. While there is no such thing as repeating a swing or "muscle memory," we as humans do get better at tasks the more we repeat them. I don't care what methodology you use, if you only play golf and hit the range once a month, your chances of becoming a great golfer are very, very low.

[OakLawnGolfPro]

Yes and not enough on what the actual strategy needed for the desired skill level.

[jbw749]

Just to be clear, you think that improving the mental focus on a mid 80s player would lower his average score by 10 strokes so that he's flirting with even par?

 

Yes. It's not an overnight transition, but it can happen.

 

If you focus on the proper task, give up control and maintain that focus, more often than not you will hit a quality golf shot. Your brain knows how to do it, if you let it.

 

Don't misunderstand me, you have to have some technical fundamentals. You have to have a proper grip so the club can hinge. You have to allow the club to swing with enough width. You have to start in an address position that will allow you to execute the task.

 

But once you have those fundamentals down, focusing on right task will solve many, many swing flaws all on its own. The swing flaws are the symptom, not the disease. As an example, think about the common over-the-top problem that plagues most newer golfers. If your focus is on throwing the club to a target, you WILL NOT come of the top. You can't. You'd throw it into the ground. But rather than teaching students to focus on the feel of a club throw, most pros will draw lines on a monitor to show us how under the plane and inside we are. Then they'll setup swim noodles and put a shoebox outside our ball. Then they'll say "do this drill 3 times a week every week for 12-18 months and you'll have ingrained the right move." "What, it's not working? Oh..that's your fault. You're not committed enough."

 

What some of you are not understanding is there are people in the world that have taken many dozens of lessons, including from highly acclaimed teaching pros. They did the drills. The improvement would come, but it would quickly disappear. Why? Not because of a lack of commitment. Rather, because of a fundamental disconnect.

 

In my own personal case, in all my years of lessons, not a single conventional pro ever said anything to me about allowing the club to swing utilizing gravity. Thus, throughout most of my life, I tried to shove the club back and forth with my muscles. I was never told it wasn't my job to hit the ball. So, I made an ill-timed, awkward, massively over-the-top swing at the ball for most of my life.

 

Pros would always identify the correct flaws. My takeaway was too inside. I was too over the top. My club face was too open. I was going left at impact.

 

They'd give me drills. "Feel like you're shaking hands in the takeaway." "Hit the inside part of the ball." "Bump your left hip to start the downswing." But all they resulted in was the proverbial unfolding lawn chair. With all of these body part focuses, I made a very confused swing. On occasion, I'd hit the ball better, but I didn't know why, or how to do it again.

 

It wasn't until an unconventional pro alerted my idiot self to the fact that I WAS supposed to allow the club to swing utilizing gravity and I was not supposed to try to hit the ball that I saw actual, sustainable improvement. Feeling those feelings for the first time was like a bomb going off. Holy CRAP. I've been doing it SO wrong for all these years. THIS is what all those good golfers have been feeling. No wonder I could never make progress. It's like I was trying to cut down a tree with a toothbrush.

 

The conventional pros analysis of the problems was spot on. It was their lack of understanding WHY I had those problems that was at fault. I didn't take the club too far inside because it was a bad habit that had to be broken through 12-18 months of drills. I took the club too far inside because I was trying to hit the ball.

 

But it's really, really hard to get a golfer who learned via the conventional route to consider the fact there may be a different way. It's probably even harder to convince a golf pro. They learned via drills, their mentor taught them via drills, they've helped some golfers improve via drills, so by god, drills are the correct way, end of discussion.

 

Obviously there are people who can use conventional instruction methods and have success. The large numbers of single-digit handicaps in the world are proof of that. However, I contend there's an even larger number of people who don't have success. They take the same lessons. They do the same drills. But when they fail, they get the blame. Maybe, just maybe it's the instructor's failure to identify these fundamental disconnects that is at fault. It's like telling someone to dig a hole, then blaming them when the hole didn't get dug, but you never asked them if they know how to use a shovel.

 

Finally, let me say that even using unconventional instruction still requires repetition to improve to a very high level. While there is no such thing as repeating a swing or "muscle memory," we as humans do get better at tasks the more we repeat them. I don't care what methodology you use, if you only play golf and hit the range once a month, your chances of becoming a great golfer are very, very low.

 

Wadesworld,

 

You are EXACTLY the type of golfer I'm trying to connect with here. And there's tons of people who post or browse here that have the fundamentals and skills required, but the wrong mental direction. Yes if you're shooting mid or upper 80's and hit a major wall for a long time, the floodgates could pour open and flirt with par by using the mental game.

And your example is spot on. If the ball is your target you will come over the top, it's the shortest route to the ball and the best way to hammer the ball into the ground so if the ball is your target an over the top swing correct. Changing the focus DRASTICALLY changes the mechanics.

 

Imagine being an instructor and not knowing your student is "ball bound" complete waste of a lesson imo. You would spend the whole lesson trying to fight your subconscious. Give you SC a different task. It almost always will surprise you.

[naval2006]

There should be some efficient mechanics in the swing to play decent golf, no matter aesthtetics. And then your mind needs to focus on performing on the course. Now if you read all the Rotella and Pia books and get the best attitude on the course but your swing sucks, you won't perform at all. Perhaps instructors and better players can explain further.

[johnrobison]

I would say not enough. Amateurs techniques aren't very good and without conscious effort into changing/improving that technique they won't get much better. I think the goal is to make a subconscious swing that is good enough for that particular person. If that person is happy with their handicap they MIGHT be able to get the most out of their current handicap without technical thoughts, but they will never make a big jump in their handicap level.

THIS!

 

A good swing requires proper mechanics. You can't just imagine yourself into changing and improving them.

It's good in theory but most amateurs aren't going to improve their techniques significantly unless they are prepared to put in the time and effort a pro would. How many ams do you think is going to be able to swing like a pro with minimal lessons and practice hours, not to mention willing to lose money to their playing buddies for a year before getting better?

 

Those one lesson aha moments don't last. I agree with Monte permanent significant improvement to technique takes a long time and a lot of effort most ams just don't have the resources.

I agre with you, however, whether golfers are willing to put in the required amount of work isn't the discussion. This discussion is about the importance of swing mechanics at the amateur level.

[TB07]

I would say not enough. Amateurs techniques aren't very good and without conscious effort into changing/improving that technique they won't get much better. I think the goal is to make a subconscious swing that is good enough for that particular person. If that person is happy with their handicap they MIGHT be able to get the most out of their current handicap without technical thoughts, but they will never make a big jump in their handicap level.

THIS!

 

A good swing requires proper mechanics. You can't just imagine yourself into changing and improving them.

It's good in theory but most amateurs aren't going to improve their techniques significantly unless they are prepared to put in the time and effort a pro would. How many ams do you think is going to be able to swing like a pro with minimal lessons and practice hours, not to mention willing to lose money to their playing buddies for a year before getting better?

 

Those one lesson aha moments don't last. I agree with Monte permanent significant improvement to technique takes a long time and a lot of effort most ams just don't have the resources.

I agre with you, however, whether golfers are willing to put in the required amount of work isn't the discussion. This discussion is about the importance of swing mechanics at the amateur level.

 

Yes, and I would say extremely important.

[TB07]

Just to be clear, you think that improving the mental focus on a mid 80s player would lower his average score by 10 strokes so that he's flirting with even par?

 

Yes. It's not an overnight transition, but it can happen.

 

If you focus on the proper task, give up control and maintain that focus, more often than not you will hit a quality golf shot. Your brain knows how to do it, if you let it.

 

Don't misunderstand me, you have to have some technical fundamentals. You have to have a proper grip so the club can hinge. You have to allow the club to swing with enough width. You have to start in an address position that will allow you to execute the task.

 

But once you have those fundamentals down, focusing on right task will solve many, many swing flaws all on its own. The swing flaws are the symptom, not the disease. As an example, think about the common over-the-top problem that plagues most newer golfers. If your focus is on throwing the club to a target, you WILL NOT come of the top. You can't. You'd throw it into the ground. But rather than teaching students to focus on the feel of a club throw, most pros will draw lines on a monitor to show us how under the plane and inside we are. Then they'll setup swim noodles and put a shoebox outside our ball. Then they'll say "do this drill 3 times a week every week for 12-18 months and you'll have ingrained the right move." "What, it's not working? Oh..that's your fault. You're not committed enough."

 

What some of you are not understanding is there are people in the world that have taken many dozens of lessons, including from highly acclaimed teaching pros. They did the drills. The improvement would come, but it would quickly disappear. Why? Not because of a lack of commitment. Rather, because of a fundamental disconnect.

 

In my own personal case, in all my years of lessons, not a single conventional pro ever said anything to me about allowing the club to swing utilizing gravity. Thus, throughout most of my life, I tried to shove the club back and forth with my muscles. I was never told it wasn't my job to hit the ball. So, I made an ill-timed, awkward, massively over-the-top swing at the ball for most of my life.

 

Pros would always identify the correct flaws. My takeaway was too inside. I was too over the top. My club face was too open. I was going left at impact.

 

They'd give me drills. "Feel like you're shaking hands in the takeaway." "Hit the inside part of the ball." "Bump your left hip to start the downswing." But all they resulted in was the proverbial unfolding lawn chair. With all of these body part focuses, I made a very confused swing. On occasion, I'd hit the ball better, but I didn't know why, or how to do it again.

 

It wasn't until an unconventional pro alerted my idiot self to the fact that I WAS supposed to allow the club to swing utilizing gravity and I was not supposed to try to hit the ball that I saw actual, sustainable improvement. Feeling those feelings for the first time was like a bomb going off. Holy CRAP. I've been doing it SO wrong for all these years. THIS is what all those good golfers have been feeling. No wonder I could never make progress. It's like I was trying to cut down a tree with a toothbrush.

 

The conventional pros analysis of the problems was spot on. It was their lack of understanding WHY I had those problems that was at fault. I didn't take the club too far inside because it was a bad habit that had to be broken through 12-18 months of drills. I took the club too far inside because I was trying to hit the ball.

 

But it's really, really hard to get a golfer who learned via the conventional route to consider the fact there may be a different way. It's probably even harder to convince a golf pro. They learned via drills, their mentor taught them via drills, they've helped some golfers improve via drills, so by god, drills are the correct way, end of discussion.

 

Obviously there are people who can use conventional instruction methods and have success. The large numbers of single-digit handicaps in the world are proof of that. However, I contend there's an even larger number of people who don't have success. They take the same lessons. They do the same drills. But when they fail, they get the blame. Maybe, just maybe it's the instructor's failure to identify these fundamental disconnects that is at fault. It's like telling someone to dig a hole, then blaming them when the hole didn't get dug, but you never asked them if they know how to use a shovel.

 

Finally, let me say that even using unconventional instruction still requires repetition to improve to a very high level. While there is no such thing as repeating a swing or "muscle memory," we as humans do get better at tasks the more we repeat them. I don't care what methodology you use, if you only play golf and hit the range once a month, your chances of becoming a great golfer are very, very low.

 

What effect would gravity have on the club without using muscular force?

[wadesworld]

What effect would gravity have on the club without using muscular force?

 

Gravity guides the club. It, and centripetal force, cause it to track a beautiful arc.

 

Yes, it takes muscles to heave the club back so that it can be allowed to swing through with gravity. And if one wishes to apply some extra force, it's done using muscles. But it's done near the bottom of the arc, as an addition to gravity, not a replacement.

 

There's a HUGE difference between you swinging the club back and through and allowing the club to swing. If you don't understand that, one of two things is happening:

 

1) You already do swing the club with gravity and momentum, but you don't realize it. This is generally the case for the "natural athlete." It also can be the case for good golfers who did those thousands of drills. They ended up allowing the club to swing with gravity and momentum, but they happened upon it and now it has become a feel.

 

2) You've learned to force the club back and through sufficiently to play OK golf, but you're missing out on the extension, compression and beautiful release that come with allowing the club to swing. You see so many people hit the ball better than you, but you can't figure out why. You work SO hard, but your swing doesn't seem to get much better. This is why.

 

You've heard the term timing? Know what timing is? Timing is allowing our brain and body to respond to the crucial input of gravity. Timing is what allows our body to activate a beautiful kenetic chain. When we stop allowing the club to swing with gravity and force it back and through ourselves, we take that crucial input away from our brain and whether we time things right or not becomes a matter of luck.

 

If you're in group 2, go out into the back yard with your club. Focus on heaving the club back and then just allowing it to swing through with as little control as possible. If you do it right, a lightbulb will go off in your brain. You start felling things you haven't felt before, or felt them only rarely when you happened to do things right on accident. You'll feel the weight of the club pulling on your arm sockets as centripetal force pulls it away from your body. You'll feel the best extension you've ever felt as a result. You'll feel a beautiful consistent arc. And you'll feel what real lag feels like as your kinetic chain activates, the hands come through and there's a beautiful, heavy release out in front of the body.

 

If you then take that to the driving range, you'll hit some of the most amazing shots you've ever hit in your life. They will be beautiful, penetrating and long. They will also be effortless. However, I will warn you that it's not easy to do this. You have to divorce yourself from your desire to hit the ball, and more so, from your desire to be in control. But on those swings where you're successful, you'll be dancing the happy dance.

 

Ever hit a shot where you said "that's as good as I can hit a golf ball?" These things happened when you hit that shot.

[TB07]

What effect would gravity have on the club without using muscular force?

 

Gravity guides the club. It, and centripetal force, cause it to track a beautiful arc.

 

Yes, it takes muscles to heave the club back so that it can be allowed to swing through with gravity. And if one wishes to apply some extra force, it's done using muscles. But it's done near the bottom of the arc, as an addition to gravity, not a replacement.

 

There's a HUGE difference between you swinging the club back and through and allowing the club to swing. If you don't understand that, one of two things is happening:

 

1) You already do swing the club with gravity and momentum, but you don't realize it. This is generally the case for the "natural athlete." It also can be the case for good golfers who did those thousands of drills. They ended up allowing the club to swing with gravity and momentum, but they happened upon it and now it has become a feel.

 

2) You've learned to force the club back and through sufficiently to play OK golf, but you're missing out on the extension, compression and beautiful release that come with allowing the club to swing. You see so many people hit the ball better than you, but you can't figure out why. You work SO hard, but your swing doesn't seem to get much better. This is why.

 

You've heard the term timing? Know what timing is? Timing is allowing our brain and body to respond to the crucial input of gravity. Timing is what allows our body to activate a beautiful kenetic chain. When we stop allowing the club to swing with gravity and force it back and through ourselves, we take that crucial input away from our brain and whether we time things right or not becomes a matter of luck.

 

If you're in group 2, go out into the back yard with your club. Focus on heaving the club back and then just allowing it to swing through with as little control as possible. If you do it right, a lightbulb will go off in your brain. You start felling things you haven't felt before, or felt them only rarely when you happened to do things right on accident. You'll feel the weight of the club pulling on your arm sockets as centripetal force pulls it away from your body. You'll feel the best extension you've ever felt as a result. You'll feel a beautiful consistent arc. And you'll feel what real lag feels like as your kinetic chain activates, the hands come through and there's a beautiful, heavy release out in front of the body.

 

If you then take that to the driving range, you'll hit some of the most amazing shots you've ever hit in your life. They will be beautiful, penetrating and long. They will also be effortless. However, I will warn you that it's not easy to do this. You have to divorce yourself from your desire to hit the ball, and more so, from your desire to be in control. But on those swings where you're successful, you'll be dancing the happy dance.

 

Ever hit a shot where you said "that's as good as I can hit a golf ball?" These things happened when you hit that shot.

 

gravity can only pull downwards, how can it create an arc?

[Grayback1973]

I'll say this and I think it's significant.You could have two golfers that get into an identical position somewhere,say,in the backswing but yet they got there different ways,using different forces and different muscles.Ones muscles were relaxed and the others were tense in the same area.I'm talking about the way two people will use their bodies differently and yet from an outside perspective people will think their swings are identical only because the positions are so similar.

 

My point is that there is way more to "mechanics" than positions and movement.

[wadesworld]

 

 

gravity can only pull downwards, how can it create an arc?

 

Did you miss my mention of centripetal force?

[TB07]

 

 

gravity can only pull downwards, how can it create an arc?

 

Did you miss my mention of centripetal force?

 

So what’s causing the centripetal force without muscular effort?

[wadesworld]

So what's causing the centripetal force without muscular effort?

 

You're missing the point or being purposely combative.

 

As I said, yes it takes muscles to start the club swinging and it takes muscles to apply extra force at the proper place if desired. But there's a difference between allowing the club to swing and swinging the club yourself.

 

Take 10-pound kettle bell. Use your muscles to heave it back. Now when it swings through, did you muscle it through? Or did you allow the weight of the kettle bell to swing through and track an arc. If you did the former, chances are you hurt yourself. That's what I'm talking about.

[iteachgolf]

What effect would gravity have on the club without using muscular force?

 

Gravity guides the club. It, and centripetal force, cause it to track a beautiful arc.

 

Yes, it takes muscles to heave the club back so that it can be allowed to swing through with gravity. And if one wishes to apply some extra force, it's done using muscles. But it's done near the bottom of the arc, as an addition to gravity, not a replacement.

 

There's a HUGE difference between you swinging the club back and through and allowing the club to swing. If you don't understand that, one of two things is happening:

 

1) You already do swing the club with gravity and momentum, but you don't realize it. This is generally the case for the "natural athlete." It also can be the case for good golfers who did those thousands of drills. They ended up allowing the club to swing with gravity and momentum, but they happened upon it and now it has become a feel.

 

2) You've learned to force the club back and through sufficiently to play OK golf, but you're missing out on the extension, compression and beautiful release that come with allowing the club to swing. You see so many people hit the ball better than you, but you can't figure out why. You work SO hard, but your swing doesn't seem to get much better. This is why.

 

You've heard the term timing? Know what timing is? Timing is allowing our brain and body to respond to the crucial input of gravity. Timing is what allows our body to activate a beautiful kenetic chain. When we stop allowing the club to swing with gravity and force it back and through ourselves, we take that crucial input away from our brain and whether we time things right or not becomes a matter of luck.

 

If you're in group 2, go out into the back yard with your club. Focus on heaving the club back and then just allowing it to swing through with as little control as possible. If you do it right, a lightbulb will go off in your brain. You start felling things you haven't felt before, or felt them only rarely when you happened to do things right on accident. You'll feel the weight of the club pulling on your arm sockets as centripetal force pulls it away from your body. You'll feel the best extension you've ever felt as a result. You'll feel a beautiful consistent arc. And you'll feel what real lag feels like as your kinetic chain activates, the hands come through and there's a beautiful, heavy release out in front of the body.

 

If you then take that to the driving range, you'll hit some of the most amazing shots you've ever hit in your life. They will be beautiful, penetrating and long. They will also be effortless. However, I will warn you that it's not easy to do this. You have to divorce yourself from your desire to hit the ball, and more so, from your desire to be in control. But on those swings where you're successful, you'll be dancing the happy dance.

 

Ever hit a shot where you said "that's as good as I can hit a golf ball?" These things happened when you hit that shot.

 

We’ve already beat this topic to death. Gravity has very little to do with how the club is swung. The forces and torques on the club are exponentially greater than the force of gravity and in transition to flatten the shaft there is actually an UPWARD force being applied to the grip. Opposite of gravity in a proper golf swing.

[TB07]

So what's causing the centripetal force without muscular effort?

 

You're missing the point or being purposely combative.

 

As I said, yes it takes muscles to start the club swinging and it takes muscles to apply extra force at the proper place if desired. But there's a difference between allowing the club to swing and swinging the club yourself.

 

Take 10-pound kettle bell. Use your muscles to heave it back. Now when it swings through, did you muscle it through? Or did you allow the weight of the kettle bell to swing through and track an arc. If you did the former, chances are you hurt yourself. That's what I'm talking about.

 

I’m not misssing the point at all. I’m making the point that most people don’t realize what they are doing versus what they are thinking is usually not the same. Case and point with your comments.

[wadesworld]

 

We've already beat this topic to death. Gravity has very little to do with how the club is swung. The forces and torques on the club are exponentially greater than the force of gravity and in transition to flatten the shaft there is actually an UPWARD force being applied to the grip. Opposite of gravity in a proper golf swing.

 

I'm just not sure how to respond to this Dan. You're a respected golf teacher. To insinuate your students are not utilizing gravity and centripetal force as they allow the club to track an arc is mind blowing. You really believe you're solely responsible for forcing the club back and through all on your own and not utilizing these forces of physics?

[iteachgolf]

 

We've already beat this topic to death. Gravity has very little to do with how the club is swung. The forces and torques on the club are exponentially greater than the force of gravity and in transition to flatten the shaft there is actually an UPWARD force being applied to the grip. Opposite of gravity in a proper golf swing.

 

I'm just not sure how to respond to this Dan. You're a respected golf teacher. To insinuate your students are not utilizing gravity and centripetal force as they allow the club to track an arc is mind blowing. You really believe you're solely responsible for forcing the club back and through all on your own and not utilizing these forces of physics?

 

Centripetal force is 100% created by the player rotating. So yes it’s absol 100% the sole responsibility of the player to create those forces. Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said they aren’t using those forces, one of them is 100% created by the player and the other is so small it has a negligible impact on how the club is swung.

 

It’s you who doesn’t understand the physics being applied to create those forces and torques. In every tour player that’s ever been measured except one, and the one is notoriously short and crooked, is applying an UPWARD force in transition to get the club to flatten. It’s the only way to get the clubhead to work down at a faster rate than the grip, which is the only way the club shaft will flatten in transition.

 

You have to apply a force to the club to get it to move. The player is the one applying those forces to the club.

[ThinkingPlus]

We've already beat this topic to death. Gravity has very little to do with how the club is swung. The forces and torques on the club are exponentially greater than the force of gravity and in transition to flatten the shaft there is actually an UPWARD force being applied to the grip. Opposite of gravity in a proper golf swing.

 

I'm just not sure how to respond to this Dan. You're a respected golf teacher. To insinuate your students are not utilizing gravity and centripetal force as they allow the club to track an arc is mind blowing. You really believe you're solely responsible for forcing the club back and through all on your own and not utilizing these forces of physics?

 

Centripetal force is 100% created by the player rotating. So yes it's absol 100% the sole responsibility of the player to create those forces. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said they aren't using those forces, one of them is 100% created by the player and the other is so small it has a negligible impact on how the club is swung.

 

It's you who doesn't understand the physics being applied to create those forces and torques. In every tour player that's ever been measured except one, and the one is notoriously short and crooked, is applying an UPWARD force in transition to get the club to flatten. It's the only way to get the clubhead to work down at a faster rate than the grip, which is the only way the club shaft will flatten in transition.

 

You have to apply a force to the club to get it to move. The player is the one applying those forces to the club.

Do you think that top players use gravity as a down swing starter which should minimize jerk (first derivative of acceleration is jerk - gravity is a constant acceleration force)? That would account for the silky smooth look as a swing transitions from back swing to down swing.

[iteachgolf]

We've already beat this topic to death. Gravity has very little to do with how the club is swung. The forces and torques on the club are exponentially greater than the force of gravity and in transition to flatten the shaft there is actually an UPWARD force being applied to the grip. Opposite of gravity in a proper golf swing.

 

I'm just not sure how to respond to this Dan. You're a respected golf teacher. To insinuate your students are not utilizing gravity and centripetal force as they allow the club to track an arc is mind blowing. You really believe you're solely responsible for forcing the club back and through all on your own and not utilizing these forces of physics?

 

Centripetal force is 100% created by the player rotating. So yes it's absol 100% the sole responsibility of the player to create those forces. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said they aren't using those forces, one of them is 100% created by the player and the other is so small it has a negligible impact on how the club is swung.

 

It's you who doesn't understand the physics being applied to create those forces and torques. In every tour player that's ever been measured except one, and the one is notoriously short and crooked, is applying an UPWARD force in transition to get the club to flatten. It's the only way to get the clubhead to work down at a faster rate than the grip, which is the only way the club shaft will flatten in transition.

 

You have to apply a force to the club to get it to move. The player is the one applying those forces to the club.

Do you think that top players use gravity as a down swing starter which should minimize jerk (first derivative of acceleration is jerk - gravity is a constant acceleration force)? That would account for the silky smooth look as a swing transitions from back swing to down swing.

 

No. Like I said above it’s the opposite. 99.8% of highly skilled golfers are applying an upward force on the grip. The opposite of using gravity. They are working against it.

 

100% of players who suck are applying a downward force on the grip. So if anyone is using gravity in transition it’s the worst players not the best

[wadesworld]

You have to apply a force to the club to get it to move. The player is the one applying those forces to the club.

 

I really, really think we're saying the same thing Dan. I'm sure my terminology is not exactly spot on and that's where some of the confusion arises.

 

My point is, these forces have to be utilized. I tried most of my golfing career, to not utilize those those forces. I did not allow the rotational force of my body to swing the club to a target. Instead, I tried to control the club to place it on the ball. Surely you agree there's a huge difference?

[juststeve]

I invite everyone to google Mike Malaska and gravity to get another view. Not necessarily better but worth considering.

 

Steve

[Millbrook]

Does the upward force come from the transition movement which shallows the club rather than a deliberate hand movement?