Is Too Much Attention Spent On Swing Mechanics (at the amateur level)

[jbw749]

I'm loosing track of the contentions here. Is it whether gravity alone will create enough speed to hit the ball far enough? It won't. Is it whether the club should be swung rather than levered? It should if you want an optimally efficient swing. Is it whether the club can be swung without manipulation and leverage? Not perfectly but it remains he best way to move the club.

 

Steve

 

My original contention was that mechanics can be improved through focus on an appropriate task, such as cutting the grass towards a target. If you do so and allow the club to track its arc with a minimum of manipulation, good, or at least better, mechanics will often result over the alternative of focusing on body parts.

 

Others contend the only way, or at least the most effective way, to change mechanics is to do rote drills for some lengthy period of time until the new mechanics are "ingrained."

 

That's pretty much the crux of the debate until the physics blackhole started.

 

Who should we believe as to what works best in improving golfers? A bogey golfer with no experience teaching or teachers who have helped people massively improve their ability and scores?

 

You know Dan, there is one thing you're not good at. And that's communicating in written words without sounding condescending. The frickin guy is making a point about something he feels strongly about. NOTHING he wrote would be detrimental to anyone's game or set anybody back if they tried it. So don't give me the "I'm just trying to help the masses so they don't get swindled" excuse either. Which is the excuse you used when going after Malaska btw.

 

And I feel strongly that it won’t help many golfers to any significant degree. What’s wrong with that? I was given a drill to hit a tee in front of the ball ages ago. Thank god I ditched that when I did cause it didn’t put a dent in my scores.

 

Over the ball, I think about nothing other than the target. I don't focus on technique. But, under pressure, I do use one simple swing thought: I pick a spot a foot in front of the ball and hit over it -- hard. That takes my mind off the outcome of the shot and keeps me in the process. (Quote from Rory)

[iteachgolf]

Who should we believe as to what works best in improving golfers? A bogey golfer with no experience teaching or teachers who have helped people massively improve their ability and scores?

 

I was simply relating my frustrations and failures working with the traditional teaching methods Dan.

 

But the different approach is not made-up by me. It's taught to me by PGA Class A teaching pros, who have helped people massively improve their ability and scores. It has simply been more effective for me and I was hoping others would find it helpful as well. I don't think I'm the only one who has ever struggled with traditional methods and I don't think the reason is always a failure by the student.

 

But I'll exit the conversation at this point. I can continue to argue my experience, but it would be deemed incorrect and harmful, and it would be impossible to respond without the conversation becoming even more contentious and that is not my intent.

 

There’s no traditional method. I completely believe you were frustrated and you probably received poor instruction. I also can easily believe focus on the target allowed you to relax and play the best golf your swing would allow you to play. I’m not saying it isn’t beneficial. In fact I use it regular for kids and beginning golfers. My point is when people are trying to get to a high level the details matter. To become a bogey golfer you just have to be able to “throw a ball”. The precision needed to play at a high level requires more precision.

 

Did you maybe think that you were taught that way because it fit your skill level and what you needed at the time? And that to get from where you are to scratch, gravity and swinging towards the target isn’t enough detail to get there? You’re speaking from your experiences, which is great and will absolutely work to get someone decent at golf. But you can’t speak for everyone about how it’s best to get better if they are 2 handicap and trying to get better to qualify for the State Am. Different skill levels need different things. Different personalities need different things. There’s no one size fits all approach that will work for even a majority of people.

[iteachgolf]

 

My original contention was that mechanics can be improved through focus on an appropriate task, such as cutting the grass towards a target. If you do so and allow the club to track its arc with a minimum of manipulation, good, or at least better, mechanics will often result over the alternative of focusing on body parts.

 

Others contend the only way, or at least the most effective way, to change mechanics is to do rote drills for some lengthy period of time until the new mechanics are "ingrained."

 

That's pretty much the crux of the debate until the physics blackhole started.

 

Who should we believe as to what works best in improving golfers? A bogey golfer with no experience teaching or teachers who have helped people massively improve their ability and scores?

 

You know Dan, there is one thing you're not good at. And that's communicating in written words without sounding condescending. The frickin guy is making a point about something he feels strongly about. NOTHING he wrote would be detrimental to anyone's game or set anybody back if they tried it. So don't give me the "I'm just trying to help the masses so they don't get swindled" excuse either. Which is the excuse you used when going after Malaska btw.

 

And I feel strongly that it won’t help many golfers to any significant degree. What’s wrong with that? I was given a drill to hit a tee in front of the ball ages ago. Thank god I ditched that when I did cause it didn’t put a dent in my scores.

 

Over the ball, I think about nothing other than the target. I don't focus on technique. But, under pressure, I do use one simple swing thought: I pick a spot a foot in front of the ball and hit over it -- hard. That takes my mind off the outcome of the shot and keeps me in the process. (Quote from Rory)

 

But what does he do on the range to reach subconscious competence? Again it’s already been stated that the goal is to play without much internal thought. But to get there you need to become consciously competent by working on improving specific details before it can become subconscious.

 

That’s where your disconnect is. These guys work literally hours a day on their mechanics so they can go subconscious while playing. Most are thinking mechanics in the practice swing so when they walk into the ball they just look and repeat. It’s the work on mechanics before that allows them to go into a subconscious state before hitting the shot

[iteachgolf]

This is from a player who consistently has a path of 0. He’s literally swinging at the target as good as anyone can. But sometimes when his body doesn’t work effectively he can’t control the face and therefore his start lines, even though his path is still 0. Him thinking about how his body moves one day before this round allowed him to shoot 10 shots below the course rating. No amount of thinking about gravity or swinging at the target would have helped him. He didn’t have a path problem and he doesn’t have a speed problem.

 

 

[Swingman420]

That’s good stuff there. It also has almost no relationship to average amateurs at all.

Anyone who can shoot that at that rating has talent and dedication period.

I could put up video that’s on the opposite side of the spectrum-first time golfers given a simple task who have a lot of aspects of body motion that most ams would die for.

These people never consciously practiced a million reps to get a nice turn beatiful lower body action with that little sit down left knee and hip leading the ds and swinging in synch with lag and shaft lean through impact and a nice finish. I am talking first timers.

Balance is hardwired by the time you reach a certain age.

So, the door swings both ways but obviously you are correct in what you show, Iteacher.

Detail absolutely matters. But, it’s worthless without the golfer having a good concept prior to cleaning things up.

If the task one is assigned is incorrect the road will be very very long.

So, just because what you say is correct doesn’t mean of necessity that others are wrong.

I am also opting out of this thread. It is getting circular .

 

Cheers to you Iteach, you have contributed a lot to the game!

 

CHAKA

 

 

[TB07]

Rory thinking about a spot in front of the ball while playing in competition is not even close to the same thing. As I already said, that’s fine to get the most out of your skill level. It’s not going to change your skill level. I don’t think about mechanics when I’m playing for score. When I’m playing there’s not much I can do to significantly change the motion.

[iteachgolf]

That’s good stuff there. It also has almost no relationship to average amateurs at all.

Anyone who can shoot that at that rating has talent and dedication period.

I could put up video that’s on the opposite side of the spectrum-first time golfers given a simple task who have a lot of aspects of body motion that most ams would die for.

These people never consciously practiced a million reps to get a nice turn beatiful lower body action with that little sit down left knee and hip leading the ds and swinging in synch with lag and shaft lean through impact and a nice finish. I am talking first timers.

Balance is hardwired by the time you reach a certain age.

So, the door swings both ways but obviously you are correct in what you show, Iteacher.

Detail absolutely matters. But, it’s worthless without the golfer having a good concept prior to cleaning things up.

If the task one is assigned is incorrect the road will be very very long.

So, just because what you say is correct doesn’t mean of necessity that others are wrong.

I am also opting out of this thread. It is getting circular .

 

Cheers to you Iteach, you have contributed a lot to the game!

 

CHAKA

 

I already said that I teach swinging to the target to beginners. And I said different players and different skill levels with different personalities all need different things. It should be kept as simple as the individuals skill level and knowledge allows. What’s complicated to one person is simple to another

[wadesworld]

The fact someone is a bogey golfer and not a teacher is relevant when they are trying to discuss "the most effective way to get better"

 

Since you're speaking of me, I will comment.

 

As I stated, most of what I related comes from Shawn Clement, a Canadian Class A PGA instructor, who has a staff of at least 6, has been teaching 30 years, and has helped thousands improve their game. Some other parts come from a US Class A PGA instructor who follows a similar philosophy.

 

Other parts come from Fred Shoemaker's teaching material.

 

And I do believe telling people they don't need to get instruction and just thinking about swinging towards the target will hurt peoples games.

 

Never said that. Not once. I suggested perhaps there was a different model of instruction.

 

 

 

But you can't speak for everyone about how it's best to get better if they are 2 handicap and trying to get better to qualify for the State Am. Different skill levels need different things. Different personalities need different things. There's no one size fits all approach that will work for even a majority of people.

 

Not once did I say that conventional or drill-based instruction does not work, nor did I ever say I was speaking for everyone. In fact, I admitted it obviously does work for many people, given the large number of low cap golfers that exist in the world, presumably many of which have been taught by that method.

 

Based on my own experience and observation of other golfers in the world, I suggested there was perhaps even a larger group that also struggled to get better through conventional instruction, and perhaps they might consider an alternative way of instruction.

[Jim Waldron]

The fact someone is a bogey golfer and not a teacher is relevant when they are trying to discuss "the most effective way to get better"

 

Since you're speaking of me, I will comment.

 

As I stated, most of what I related comes from Shawn Clement, a Canadian Class A PGA instructor, who has a staff of at least 6, has been teaching 30 years, and has helped thousands improve their game. Some other parts come from a US Class A PGA instructor who follows a similar philosophy.

 

Other parts come from Fred Shoemaker's teaching material.

 

And I do believe telling people they don't need to get instruction and just thinking about swinging towards the target will hurt peoples games.

 

Never said that. Not once. I suggested perhaps there was a different model of instruction.

 

 

But you can't speak for everyone about how it's best to get better if they are 2 handicap and trying to get better to qualify for the State Am. Different skill levels need different things. Different personalities need different things. There's no one size fits all approach that will work for even a majority of people.

 

Not once did I say that conventional or drill-based instruction does not work, nor did I ever say I was speaking for everyone. In fact, I admitted it obviously does work for many people, given the large number of low cap golfers that exist in the world, presumably many of which have been taught by that method.

 

Based on my own experience and observation of other golfers in the world, I suggested there was perhaps even a larger group that also struggled to get better through conventional instruction, and perhaps they might consider an alternative way of instruction.

 

The problem you identified is a real one and a big one. It has always been the case in the sport of golf that learning/training and performing were mixed together, with disastrous outcomes for average golfers especially. In no other sport do we see this kind of basic confusion in terms of the mindset of the athlete. In golf, the "practice" mindset is the mindset that folks end up using on the golf course. You know - trying to improve your technique in the middle of the round or even the middle of the downswing.

 

But that problem has gotten much worse with the Internet and high tech golf instruction.

 

In my opinion, a teacher should explain to every new student the basic psychology of how to make a swing change. Like that the change is meant to go into your subconscious mind memory bank long term and the change is NOT a choice or a thought. The change is the end product of a period of time devoted to practice. Then you will start to see the change manifest in your body motion naturally. It is a process that is hard-wired into the brain.

 

The mindset for practice is the polar opposite of playing the game. Vital to never conflate the two things.

 

Another principle is that the part of your brain that can think intellectually, is not the same part of the brain that creates a body movement pattern. Swing changes are not a choice, once again. Trying to think your way to better mechanics ONLY works in slow motion speed.

 

The change you are talking about is something I see everyday in my teaching. Folks have a massive insight into how the body and club should move, and when you overcome the Steering Impulse and the Hit Impulse as you describe it, it is truly an amazing breakthrough. It alone is not enough though if you wish to get really good at this game. But the breakthrough is similar to graduating from grammar school and experiencing the different experience that high school is by comparison.

 

Learning how to "let" things happen instead of trying to "force" things to happen is a milestone in golf learning.

 

Learning how to let the club release and feel the energy flow from body pivot into the wrist and forearms during release, allowing the face angle to close a bit during release, all wonderful stuff.

[Sean2]

A lot of different ways to teach this game. A lot of different ways to learn it. No one way is the right way. What will work for one person may not work for another.

[jbw749]

This is from a player who consistently has a path of 0. He’s literally swinging at the target as good as anyone can. But sometimes when his body doesn’t work effectively he can’t control the face and therefore his start lines, even though his path is still 0. Him thinking about how his body moves one day before this round allowed him to shoot 10 shots below the course rating. No amount of thinking about gravity or swinging at the target would have helped him. He didn’t have a path problem and he doesn’t have a speed problem.

 

 

 

The dude had 25 putts and an eagle. I'd say he was on fire! But was he thinking about this body action during the round? A day before would even be tough, but some people can make changes way faster than others. He probably found a "familiar feel" that was present before, but had went away or something. Even so a guy that good can manage some internal thoughts. I personally can't at a 3 handicap for more than a few shots max. I always switch back to external regardless of how bad my mechanics are. Internal never results in better shots on range or course for me.

[BottleCap]

A lot of different ways to teach this game. A lot of different ways to learn it. No one way is the right way. What will work for one person may not work for another.

 

I think this is what iteach is saying, but he's going even further saying a coach will teach a student different things at certain points in their development based on their needs at the time.

 

My instructor does this, he wants me to exaggerate some piece of the swing, and after i have that down, it's something else, and later down the line something I need may contradict something he had me do in the past.

[iteachgolf]

This is from a player who consistently has a path of 0. He’s literally swinging at the target as good as anyone can. But sometimes when his body doesn’t work effectively he can’t control the face and therefore his start lines, even though his path is still 0. Him thinking about how his body moves one day before this round allowed him to shoot 10 shots below the course rating. No amount of thinking about gravity or swinging at the target would have helped him. He didn’t have a path problem and he doesn’t have a speed problem.

 

 

 

The dude had 25 putts and an eagle. I'd say he was on fire! But was he thinking about this body action during the round? A day before would even be tough, but some people can make changes way faster than others. He probably found a "familiar feel" that was present before, but had went away or something. Even so a guy that good can manage some internal thoughts. I personally can't at a 3 handicap for more than a few shots max. I always switch back to external regardless of how bad my mechanics are. Internal never results in better shots on range or course for me.

 

He 100% thought about it every shot. And it was 100% about his body and how his left hip and leg were working.

[jbw749]

This is from a player who consistently has a path of 0. He’s literally swinging at the target as good as anyone can. But sometimes when his body doesn’t work effectively he can’t control the face and therefore his start lines, even though his path is still 0. Him thinking about how his body moves one day before this round allowed him to shoot 10 shots below the course rating. No amount of thinking about gravity or swinging at the target would have helped him. He didn’t have a path problem and he doesn’t have a speed problem.

 

 

 

The dude had 25 putts and an eagle. I'd say he was on fire! But was he thinking about this body action during the round? A day before would even be tough, but some people can make changes way faster than others. He probably found a "familiar feel" that was present before, but had went away or something. Even so a guy that good can manage some internal thoughts. I personally can't at a 3 handicap for more than a few shots max. I always switch back to external regardless of how bad my mechanics are. Internal never results in better shots on range or course for me.

 

He 100% thought about it every shot. And it was 100% about his body and how his left hip and leg were working.

 

Could be the left leg internal thought distracted him from a worse internal thought that he was using. Or it just felt familiar and he caught fire. I've had that happen many times. Never lasts too long though. But I've never shot 68 either.

[jbw749]

New internal swing thoughts work for a while at first because there's no preconceived expectation that they won't. And it distracts you from the last swing thought that you were starting to doubt. But eventually the same part of your brain that's creating the thought starts to fear you might lose it. It's pretty much over once the doubt sets in.

"Why won't this work?" It just worked yesterday and I shot insert #". Sound familiar?

[iteachgolf]

This is from a player who consistently has a path of 0. He’s literally swinging at the target as good as anyone can. But sometimes when his body doesn’t work effectively he can’t control the face and therefore his start lines, even though his path is still 0. Him thinking about how his body moves one day before this round allowed him to shoot 10 shots below the course rating. No amount of thinking about gravity or swinging at the target would have helped him. He didn’t have a path problem and he doesn’t have a speed problem.

 

 

 

The dude had 25 putts and an eagle. I'd say he was on fire! But was he thinking about this body action during the round? A day before would even be tough, but some people can make changes way faster than others. He probably found a "familiar feel" that was present before, but had went away or something. Even so a guy that good can manage some internal thoughts. I personally can't at a 3 handicap for more than a few shots max. I always switch back to external regardless of how bad my mechanics are. Internal never results in better shots on range or course for me.

 

He 100% thought about it every shot. And it was 100% about his body and how his left hip and leg were working.

 

Could be the left leg internal thought distracted him from a worse internal thought that he was using. Or it just felt familiar and he caught fire. I've had that happen many times. Never lasts too long though. But I've never shot 68 either.

 

Again open your mind that there’s other way to do things. It didn’t distract him from anything. It made him make a better swing leading to better golf shots and better scores. The difference is obvious on video and on the scorecard.

[Hstead]

I have been using a very mechanical thought all year. I have seen Dan twice this year, we work on the same thing. I have to make a bigger turn and keep my arms wide. So on every single full swing I try to feel my right arm stay straight and feel like my right shoulder gets over my left foot. On every single swing. I have had several rounds this year that were bogey free, something I can't remember the last time I did. Last week I played in a team competition and the last day was singles matches. I played a guy that was the #2 man for a Conference USA D1 golf team and beat him 4 and 3 and I hit the first 11 greens before missing the 12th and never made a bogey. And every one of those swings I thought on my rehersal and my full swing "right arm straight shoulder over left foot" then fire hard.

[jbw749]

I have been using a very mechanical thought all year. I have seen Dan twice this year, we work on the same thing. I have to make a bigger turn and keep my arms wide. So on every single full swing I try to feel my right arm stay straight and feel like my right shoulder gets over my left foot. On every single swing. I have had several rounds this year that were bogey free, something I can't remember the last time I did. Last week I played in a team competition and the last day was singles matches. I played a guy that was the #2 man for a Conference USA D1 golf team and beat him 4 and 3 and I hit the first 11 greens before missing the 12th and never made a bogey. And every one of those swings I thought on my rehersal and my full swing "right arm straight shoulder over left foot" then fire hard.

 

After using external thoughts for so long I could never do that no matter how good the info was. I just don't golf like that anymore. I used to, but I enjoy myself much more now and am more consistent.

If injected any thought of keeping a body part strait I'd fat it or pull it. I know my body too well.

It's crazy really. We are playing totally different games in our minds. Couldn't be any different. Congrats on your solid play. I don't doubt Dan is helping you tremendously.

I do have an open mind, just not about using internal thoughts while hitting a golf ball. I've been there it doesn't work for me and I promise there are boat loads more like me that could benefit. Some may not though. But it can't hurt to understand the difference.

 

[Hstead]

I have been using a very mechanical thought all year. I have seen Dan twice this year, we work on the same thing. I have to make a bigger turn and keep my arms wide. So on every single full swing I try to feel my right arm stay straight and feel like my right shoulder gets over my left foot. On every single swing. I have had several rounds this year that were bogey free, something I can't remember the last time I did. Last week I played in a team competition and the last day was singles matches. I played a guy that was the #2 man for a Conference USA D1 golf team and beat him 4 and 3 and I hit the first 11 greens before missing the 12th and never made a bogey. And every one of those swings I thought on my rehersal and my full swing "right arm straight shoulder over left foot" then fire hard.

 

After using external thoughts for so long I could never do that no matter how good the info was. I just don't golf like that anymore. I used to, but I enjoy myself much more now and am more consistent.

If injected any thought of keeping a body part strait I'd fat it or pull it. I know my body too well.

It's crazy really. We are playing totally different games in our minds. Couldn't be any different. Congrats on your solid play. I don't doubt Dan is helping you tremendously.

I do have an open mind, just not about using internal thoughts while hitting a golf ball. I've been there it doesn't work for me and I promise there are boat loads more like me that could benefit. Some may not though. But it can't hurt to understand the difference.

 

I totally understand the difference. When I putt or chip, any thought about technique ruins my results 100% of the time. It is just different for the full swing for me. If I hadn't worked on these mechanics and also think about them I would still be shooting 78.

[Mark Gardner]

I'm thinking swing your own swing and don't give a dang what it looks like is a better formula to reach your scoring goals.

Everyone knows the swing I'm talking about right? You know the one you know works for you but hate the way it looks? My argument is to take that swing and tweak some setup adjustments, fine tune it and TRUST it. The piece of mind of doing something you know works for you will result in lower scores.

Yes! Swing your Swing.

[wmblake2000]

This thread ought to be required reading. I think it is the best example of people on wrx actually finally getting to the core of how and why they see things differently. In the process a lot of insight about how people learn and play.

[jbw749]

I have been using a very mechanical thought all year. I have seen Dan twice this year, we work on the same thing. I have to make a bigger turn and keep my arms wide. So on every single full swing I try to feel my right arm stay straight and feel like my right shoulder gets over my left foot. On every single swing. I have had several rounds this year that were bogey free, something I can't remember the last time I did. Last week I played in a team competition and the last day was singles matches. I played a guy that was the #2 man for a Conference USA D1 golf team and beat him 4 and 3 and I hit the first 11 greens before missing the 12th and never made a bogey. And every one of those swings I thought on my rehersal and my full swing "right arm straight shoulder over left foot" then fire hard.

 

After using external thoughts for so long I could never do that no matter how good the info was. I just don't golf like that anymore. I used to, but I enjoy myself much more now and am more consistent.

If injected any thought of keeping a body part strait I'd fat it or pull it. I know my body too well.

It's crazy really. We are playing totally different games in our minds. Couldn't be any different. Congrats on your solid play. I don't doubt Dan is helping you tremendously.

I do have an open mind, just not about using internal thoughts while hitting a golf ball. I've been there it doesn't work for me and I promise there are boat loads more like me that could benefit. Some may not though. But it can't hurt to understand the difference.

 

I totally understand the difference. When I putt or chip, any thought about technique ruins my results 100% of the time. It is just different for the full swing for me. If I hadn't worked on these mechanics and also think about them I would still be shooting 78.

 

Well I still shoot 78 a lot... but I don't shoot much more than that ever and I will put up a low 70's round from time to time. So I admit my mechanics need work. The issue is how I go about learning them. And I don't do it on the course.

What I'm going to do when I get to the course with chipping, putting and full swing is always going to be the same everyday no matter what. It's a comforting feeling. I've watched your progress over the years and I know the work Dan is doing with you is working, but it's not the only way and it requires having a good teacher. I admit your progress and Dan's guy who shot 68 did surprise me. Pretty cool.

[glk]

Personally, I speculate that the real issue is not too much attention on mechanics but rather very poor practice. I haven't seen folks doing much more than making full swings for ball after ball after ball at the range. And short game areas, wow it's great to have them pretty much to yourself cause they are lightly populated in my experience. Seems like some find it easier to poke at instruction versus first looking at themselves and what they are doing to learn. I do believe those that take lessons do improve at a much greater percentage than those who want the "challenge" of learning it themselves (mini Hogans of a sort) or folks who solely rely on youtube.

[FourTops]

I rarely talk to a good player who focuses on swing mechanics.In fact,when I ask them about their mechanics they seem clueless.They seem to talk more about picturing the shot or focusing on alignment,etc.I find that typically the better somebody is at a sport or game the less they know about the science of how they do it.

 

Not these days. The guys who don't know mechanics are the guys who just don't want to talk about them, but they know them.

 

Good players know how what they do works. They understand mechanics and positions. Find me a good player who started hitting it sideways who doesn't start to focus on mechanics.

 

The better the player, the more they understand mechanics, not the less.

 

People want to believe things like this because they can't accept that others are just naturally better than them. In every sport there are plenty of high performance athletes who couldn't speak one lick to how they do it, they just do it. That is why in most sports, the exceptional in that sport are terrible coaches, because they can't understand how what they do isn't natural.

 

Well stated. Malaska thinks watching a golf swing, or focusing on pictures of someone's swing is a complete waste of time because the player is swinging based on a whole bunch of sensory - motor-skill inputs. Old books from the 40's by Jones and Boomer say the same thing. Golf is about feel...not "ok...get to HERE"...then "OK...move HERE". What a lousy way to ruin what's an otherwise fairly simple movement for folks who can "do it", but get derailed by folks who impose their way of learning upon others..

[David C]

I rarely talk to a good player who focuses on swing mechanics.In fact,when I ask them about their mechanics they seem clueless.They seem to talk more about picturing the shot or focusing on alignment,etc.I find that typically the better somebody is at a sport or game the less they know about the science of how they do it.

 

Not these days. The guys who don't know mechanics are the guys who just don't want to talk about them, but they know them.

 

Good players know how what they do works. They understand mechanics and positions. Find me a good player who started hitting it sideways who doesn't start to focus on mechanics.

 

The better the player, the more they understand mechanics, not the less.

 

People want to believe things like this because they can't accept that others are just naturally better than them. In every sport there are plenty of high performance athletes who couldn't speak one lick to how they do it, they just do it. That is why in most sports, the exceptional in that sport are terrible coaches, because they can't understand how what they do isn't natural.

 

Well stated. Malaska thinks watching a golf swing, or focusing on pictures of someone's swing is a complete waste of time because the player is swinging based on a whole bunch of sensory - motor-skill inputs. Old books from the 40's by Jones and Boomer say the same thing. Golf is about feel...not "ok...get to HERE"...then "OK...move HERE". What a lousy way to ruin what's an otherwise fairly simple movement for folks who can "do it", but get derailed by folks who impose their way of learning upon others..

 

If you’re talking about an arbitrary position for aesthetics then that’s madness. I can’t comprehend that anyone who teaches that way, save that before the technology existed to make some better judgments mimicry is a logical way to learn. In fact, we learn most skills by observing and mimicking quite naturally.

 

Swinging the club and an external focus can take you so far. Or not even get you anywhere. Would you avoid telling or showing someone they had zero backswing shoulder turn or are flat footed and striking it off the back foot if a command to swing the club a certain way just wasn’t working? And to get to the next level for that individual you may have to focus on the body. What if I score respectably but for what I want to achieve I need to have a better trajectory? Let’s say I need to keep my left shoulder lower initially and stay in posture on the downswing. Ok, maybe I can focus on moving the handle down and out to its lowest point by p5.5, that may work. But what if it doesn’t. What if the vision and explanation and focus on the correct body movement and a simple thought about that movement produces the result you want? Would you not do it because your focus isn’t on the club but on your body? Would you just be happy shooting 80 with a high, weak trajectory? Would you persist with one way of training and practising if it didn’t yield results?

 

And even for a beginner - would you avoid coaching a body motion/thought even if it worked? Or not even contemplate giving a lesson where the focus isn’t on the club?

 

And Jones and Boomer were at total opposites. The club feel for Jones is the club. For Boomer his focus was ALL about reducing it to the pivot in charge. The feel for the club being within the body, pivot, within the ‘force centre’ in fact.

 

A different perspective - I also know, for example on pitches, that I can leave my nonconscious mind to work out the hand and club action and will just focus on my pivot. Because it works. So why try to micro manage what the club or hands and arms are doing if your pivot m-body focus is effective?

[Jim Waldron]

The whole internal v external debate is kind of a red herring, in my opinion. The Wullf study had some serious flaws.

 

There are three possible ways to focus on your body during the swing, and two tend to weaken the mind-brain/body connection and cause a flinch, the other one will strengthen the mind-brain/body connection and tends to inhibit a flinch. The default way of doing so-called "internal focus" is to use one of the two ways that tends to cause a flinch. Meaning internal auditory channel or talking to body parts, or internal visual channel or picturing body parts.

 

The problem is crystal clear if your have even a tiny bit of Awareness: if you are talking to body parts your are NOT paying attention to your actual body, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking about body parts. Same for picturing body parts.

 

The only way you can actually focus on a body part is through Feel. And I mean feeling what the body is actually doing, which means passive Awareness, simply observing how your body moves through your Feel sense. NOT trying to make the body part behave in a new and different way from it's normal pattern.

 

And Feel is always from first person perspective, meaning a strong mind-brain/body connection. Talking and visual are always done from second person or even third person perspective in the case of visual. If you are in second or third person perspective, and "practicing" your mechanics, in voice or picture channel, that is a dysfunctional mindset for performing any athletic motion.

[Nard_S]

The whole internal v external debate is kind of a red herring, in my opinion. The Wullf study had some serious flaws.

 

There are three possible ways to focus on your body during the swing, and two tend to weaken the mind-brain/body connection and cause a flinch, the other one will strengthen the mind-brain/body connection and tends to inhibit a flinch. The default way of doing so-called "internal focus" is to use one of the two ways that tends to cause a flinch. Meaning internal auditory channel or talking to body parts, or internal visual channel or picturing body parts.

 

The problem is crystal clear if your have even a tiny bit of Awareness: if you are talking to body parts your are NOT paying attention to your actual body, you are paying attention to a voice in your head talking about body parts. Same for picturing body parts.

 

The only way you can actually focus on a body part is through Feel. And I mean feeling what the body is actually doing, which means passive Awareness, simply observing how your body moves through your Feel sense. NOT trying to make the body part behave in a new and different way from it's normal pattern.

 

And Feel is always from first person perspective, meaning a strong mind-brain/body connection. Talking and visual are always done from second person or even third person perspective in the case of visual. If you are in second or third person perspective, and "practicing" your mechanics, in voice or picture channel, that is a dysfunctional mindset for performing any athletic motion.

 

^^^^^^^^Gold.

[Jim Waldron]

My view is that the golf swing is a dynamic athletic act performed always in relationship to your Primary Intention, which is to send the ball to the target - NEVER guiding the clubhead to the ball. Two totally different intentions and Percy Boomer devotes a whole chapter in his classic book to that topic.

 

Having that sense of "ball to Target" somewhere in your conscious mind (either foreground or focal point, or background awareness if using a focal point other than Target) triggers your "naturalness" or natural athletic throwing motion, which is what the club throwing and related drills is all about.

 

A lot of high handicap golfers struggle with hitting good golf shots because they are under the spell of the "ball is Target" delusion.

 

When your mind is frozen on the ball as target ("ball-bound") you lose your "naturalness" things like Steering Impulse and Hit Impulse take over.

 

I think the best way to approach all this is to see the golf swing as a Swing Map or blueprint in your subconscious brain, that has many layers. And there is a natural internal "logic" to those layers, including the proper sequence for learning each layer.

 

Target focus, understanding how the club is designed to be used (my Six Laws of Club Motion concept) are two of the layers that ideally are achieved quite early on in the Process.

 

But to state that those two things are "all you need to play great golf" is beyond naive.

 

I do indeed see many of my students who are mid to high caps breakthrough to remarkable improvement when they gain insight into Target focus and the Six Laws of Club Motion. Not uncommon to see an index drop from around 20-25 to 12-18 within a couple of months of achieving those breakthroughs. And I know that Clement, Shoemaker, and other good teachers are seeing similar results. But apparently those ideas are not "sexy" enough to attract a lot of golfer eyeballs in our modern marketing-driven instruction industry.

 

But I also see as much improvement or even more when my students add to those two early layers with insight into and mastery over how their body mechanics should work.

 

Not only are those two approaches not in conflict - they are complimentary.

 

The issue of "contamination" or intellectual mind obsessed with swing thoughts and the mind-brain/body disconnection and flinching that goes with contamination is totally bypassed IF the teacher uses the proven effective Asian martial arts approach, which is that you only engage the thinking mind when doing slow mo mirror work. Which of course Wullf did not address at all.

 

With slow motion, you are literally "programming into the Swing Map" new movement patterns SO THAT WHEN YOU PLAY GOLF YOUR BODY WILL AUTOMATICALLY DO THE NEW PATTERN!

 

So many golfers here on wrx and around the world simply do not understand the meaning of that sentence.

 

And by the way, that does NOT mean that ONLY slow motion practice is all you need. Of course not!

 

You still need to spend plenty of time at full speed tempo hitting balls to learn things like tempo, rhythm, balance and release timing.

[Sean2]

Imagine learning to eat soup like we are taught to swing a golf club...we'd all starve to death.

 

--Insert two fingers beneath the spoon and thumb on top

--Pick up spoon vertically above soup bowl

--Insert spoon in bowl at 45º angle

--Bend wrist to 90º angle holding spoon firmly

--Slowly lift spoon vertically

--Move head toward spoon while continuing to lift spoon

--Rotate spoon toward mouth while keeping spoon at 180º

--Open mouth, insert spoon

 

Maybe when we first started eating soup it presented certain challenges, but now it is automatic, like a lot of things we do: walking, swimming, riding a bicycle, throwing a ball, shooting a basketball, etc. The one thing that seems to defy this kind of "automaticity" is the golf swing.

 

I have asked myself why and wonder it it's because we are always tinkering with the swing, and as such there is no chance for it to become automatic. We don't change how we throw a ball, ride a bicycle, swim or walk...it's automatic. Why should the golf swing be any different? What makes the golf swing so "special" that it can't become automatic like so many other activities in our lives?

[Ghost of Snead]

 

Maybe when we first started eating soup it presented certain challenges, but now it is automatic, like a lot of things we do: walking, swimming, riding a bicycle, throwing a ball, shooting a basketball, etc. The one thing that seems to defy this kind of "automaticity" is the golf swing.

 

 

IMO, all of the activities you mention are infinitely easier than hitting a golf ball straight, especially when you toss in elevation, wind, different greens, etc.