Is Too Much Attention Spent On Swing Mechanics (at the amateur level)

[Ghost of Snead]

Why is it the same people beating down different ways to approach the golf game on this site?

 

No one is beating down anything - asking you where got your 95% statistic. It's fairly obvious which instructor you are promoting here.

 

I'm sure everyone on the Wisdom in Golf forum agrees with everything you say.

[spoonek9]

Ugh!! Old people are so exhausting!

[wadesworld]

If dramatic improvement got you from say a 25 to a 15, good for you and kudos to Shawn Clement for giving you what you needed. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're not going to get from a 15 without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing.

 

So you're saying the only instruction which will cut it to become a great player is traditional instruction? Video your swing, draw lines, get on trackman and do drills on the range to produce the "correct" motion?

 

No other way possible to get a correct motion and correct flaws?

 

P.S. How good would I have to be for you to allow that other methodologies may work? Just wondering what the bar is. Plus handicap? Scratch?

[Ghost of Snead]

If dramatic improvement got you from say a 25 to a 15, good for you and kudos to Shawn Clement for giving you what you needed. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're not going to get from a 15 without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing.

 

So you're saying the only instruction which will cut it to become a great player is traditional instruction? Video your swing, draw lines, get on trackman and do drills on the range to produce the "correct" motion?

 

No other way possible to get a correct motion and correct flaws?

 

Why don't you ask some of the instructors that work with tour players what they work on most ? Ask Butch/Leadbetter/Gankas/Getson/Foley/Como/etc.

Or DM Iteach and ask him what he works on with Julian Suri.

 

Unless you're a natural that's been playing since you were a kid, you will eventually need work on your mechanics. And even the naturals need a tune-up at times.

 

And traditional instruction is not all about video/drawing lines/Trackman - traditional instruction was around long before all of the tools used to supplement golf

instruction. If you can get to scratch without changes to your mechanics, keep us posted on your progress.

[wadesworld]

 

Why don't you ask some of the instructors that work with tour players what they work on most ? Ask Butch/Leadbetter/Gankas/Getson/Foley/Como/etc.

Or DM Iteach and ask him what he works on with Julian Suri.

 

So only tour player instructors need apply?

 

I've heard more than one tour player coach say (paraphrasing) they have to be extremely careful when teaching a tour player. The tour player is great because of what they already do. The last thing the instructor wants to do is undo that. They may identify some areas for improvement, but it's often up to the tour player to figure out how to implement the desired behavior. Note, before someone comes along and loses their mind, I'm simply relating what I've heard in interviews. I'm sure every tour pro is different.

 

Unless you're a natural that's been playing since you were a kid, you will eventually need work on your mechanics. And even the naturals need a tune-up at times.

 

Point to me where I said mechanics never need to be improved or tuned-up.

 

I believe firmly there are three classes of golfers:

 

1. The natural athlete. This is the guy who was the star QB, plays 3 times a year and shoots 84. This is also the tour pro at a young age. Why are they so good? Because without realizing it, very early on when they picked up a golf club, they realized to get the ball from here to there, they cannot be tense. They cannot make the ball their target. They cannot focus on mechanics. They said "Hmmm...if I allow this thing to swing to that target, the ball should go where I want. Huh. Look at that, it did!"

 

2. The grinder. This is the person who receives traditional instruction and stands on the range doing his 5,000 reps. On about rep 4,900, he goes "AHA! That's what the pro is trying to get me to feel. I got it now!" With enough work, they eventually get there.

 

3. The can't-get-out-his-own-way. This represents a much bigger set of golfers than most people realize in my opinion. The pro gives them instructions and instead of improving, they get more mechanical. They focus more on the ball. They get worse. The pro tells them they'll eventually get it, but they don't. No amount of standing on the range doing the drill will help, because they're focusing on all the wrong things. The pro assumes they know to let the club swing to a target, to take tension out of their body and to allow their body to respond to the task because he does those things without even thinking about them. But they don't, so they focus more on their wrist cup at the top and can't understand why their swing is not improving.

 

And traditional instruction is not all about video/drawing lines/Trackman - traditional instruction was around long before all of the tools used to supplement golf

instruction.

 

Exactly! And many old school coaches were more along the natural swing lines. But nobody said back then they were wrong.

 

If you can get to scratch without changes to your mechanics, keep us posted on your progress.

 

So now we have the bar. Playing on average 2-3 times a month, I need to be scratch or better for my opinion to be valid.

[oikos1]

Most people dont know what they're true real swing is or what it looks like, because there's a huge misunderstanding about what should be going through your mind while swinging.

Internal thoughts of body or club positions or anxiety over messing up while swinging and expecting good results, will never let your subconscious just show you how it wants to hit the ball.

 

So just hit the ball without thinking about body and club positions. And don't worry about the results. Don't you think ppl have done this before? I know they have and they didn't get better

No hit the ball while knowing where to place your mind.

Not many people have tried what I'm talking about or have any meta awareness at all.

They focus on positions and body movements while worrying about the results. I played that way for 10 years and it's why I feel strongly about the subject. Most people do play that way and you can get really good with absurd amounts of time and effort, but there is another way. It's almost impossible to understand for some. It is not just take a swing without thinking while your limbs flail around like noodles.

I stumbled on it by dealing with my own personal struggles with anxiety and OCD. And then explored how it relates to golf.

I know for a fact after playing in match play leagues and watching decent golfers completely crumble, that even good golfers with high golf IQ still dont get it and those are the ones who would benefit the most. The ones who have been stuck at a certain handicap and have hit a million balls with their mind wandering.

Kudos to you for overcoming your personal struggles and relating it to golf. However, I'm surprised you aren't able to differentiate between mechanics/skill level verse mental blocks (we could toss in genetics as well but the waters appear to be muddy enough as it is). The former is measurable both in visual evidence and performance/results. Either you can or you can't. The later is a deep individual chasm. They exist together and you can't substitute one for the other, nor can you cast such a broad blanket as to other golfers suffering whatever mental challenges you have incurred and relating it as a mechanical level affliction. Mind right + Mechanics right = Exceptional golf.

Mind wrong = bad mechanics. Mind right may give you good mechanics without having to think about it and possibly the kind you didn't know you were capable of.

If someone typically shoots in the 70's with good mechanics, they absolutely can have a "90's" day if their mind is all jacked up, for whatever reason. Someone who typically shoots in the 90's with bad mechanics is not going to all of a sudden shoot in the 70's because everything in their world is right in their mind.

 

Surely you're not saying you have bad mechanics but through "meta awareness" have been able to play good golf as a 3.

[WIGMAN]

1. The natural athlete - Bubba?

2. The grinder - Nick Faldo?

3. The can't-get-out-his-own-way - Seve, Luke Donald?

 

"Butch/Leadbetter/Gankas/Getson/Foley/Como/etc"

 

Successful teachers in golf mechanics but obviously didn't know enough at the time to teach themselves how to be successful players.

[Ghost of Snead]

Why don't you ask some of the instructors that work with tour players what they work on most ? Ask Butch/Leadbetter/Gankas/Getson/Foley/Como/etc.

Or DM Iteach and ask him what he works on with Julian Suri.

 

So only tour player instructors need apply?

 

I've heard more than one tour player coach say (paraphrasing) they have to be extremely careful when teaching a tour player. The tour player is great because of what they already do. The last thing the instructor wants to do is undo that. They may identify some areas for improvement, but it's often up to the tour player to figure out how to implement the desired behavior. Note, before someone comes along and loses their mind, I'm simply relating what I've heard in interviews. I'm sure every tour pro is different.

 

Unless you're a natural that's been playing since you were a kid, you will eventually need work on your mechanics. And even the naturals need a tune-up at times.

 

Point to me where I said mechanics never need to be improved or tuned-up.

 

I believe firmly there are three classes of golfers:

 

1. The natural athlete. This is the guy who was the star QB, plays 3 times a year and shoots 84. This is also the tour pro at a young age. Why are they so good? Because without realizing it, very early on when they picked up a golf club, they realized to get the ball from here to there, they cannot be tense. They cannot make the ball their target. They cannot focus on mechanics. They said "Hmmm...if I allow this thing to swing to that target, the ball should go where I want. Huh. Look at that, it did!"

 

2. The grinder. This is the person who receives traditional instruction and stands on the range doing his 5,000 reps. On about rep 4,900, he goes "AHA! That's what the pro is trying to get me to feel. I got it now!" With enough work, they eventually get there.

 

3. The can't-get-out-his-own-way. This represents a much bigger set of golfers than most people realize in my opinion. The pro gives them instructions and instead of improving, they get more mechanical. They focus more on the ball. They get worse. The pro tells them they'll eventually get it, but they don't. No amount of standing on the range doing the drill will help, because they're focusing on all the wrong things. The pro assumes they know to let the club swing to a target, to take tension out of their body and to allow their body to respond to the task because he does those things without even thinking about them. But they don't, so they focus more on their wrist cup at the top and can't understand why their swing is not improving.

 

And traditional instruction is not all about video/drawing lines/Trackman - traditional instruction was around long before all of the tools used to supplement golf

instruction.

 

Exactly! And many old school coaches were more along the natural swing lines. But nobody said back then they were wrong.

 

If you can get to scratch without changes to your mechanics, keep us posted on your progress.

 

So now we have the bar. Playing on average 2-3 times a month, I need to be scratch or better for my opinion to be valid.

 

What does getting to scratch without mechanics have to do with your opinion ? If anything, your progress would validate your opinion.

 

Here's a thought ... how about you and K9 start a Shawn Clement thread and I promise never to post anything with the word 'mechanics'

[jut111]

Is the WIG forum so quiet these days ya'll moved over here?

[wadesworld]

 

Someone who typically shoots in the 90's with bad mechanics is not going to all of a sudden shoot in the 70's because everything in their world is right in their mind.

 

Who said they would?

[WIGMAN]

Is the WIG forum so quiet these days ya'll moved over here?

 

Yep - you see we 'get it' so there isn't much to discuss (we just 'cut grass' to learn the golf swing).

[Ghost of Snead]

Is the WIG forum so quiet these days ya'll moved over here?

 

Yep - you see we 'get it' so there isn't much to discuss (we just 'cut grass' to learn the golf swing).

 

Missionary work is required when you join some houses of worship.

[oikos1]

Someone who typically shoots in the 90's with bad mechanics is not going to all of a sudden shoot in the 70's because everything in their world is right in their mind.

 

Who said they would?

"Mind right may give you good mechanics without having to think about it"

 

If you're going to chime in, please follow along.

[WIGMAN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbiL1PIsvdk

[wadesworld]

What does getting to scratch without mechanics have to do with your opinion ?

 

Where has anyone said that one can become a great golfer without good or great mechanics? (Unless you're one of those rare people who learn how to manage a really funky swing all the way to a high level, ala Hosung Choi).

 

The debate is over the methodology used to achieve those mechanics.

[oikos1]

[Bingo1976]

It's always amazed me at the number of people who expect to get better at golf without any instruction and/or practice. Or indeed any sport.

 

There are some self taught freaks, I do acknowledge this, but for the vast majority of golfers, they need to commit to a training regime if they want to get better. And include the short game and putting within that. In fact, most golfers would benefit from a few short game lessons as they would spending an hour hitting drivers.

 

Now whether you go down the hyper technical route of Trackman/Video/Swing vests, or old fashioned by eye instruction, you will end up a better golfer if you commit to it.

 

The biggest mistake I see my golf partners make is to go for a lesson after a bad round. I'd say, based on my experience, that you need 4-6 lessons with 2-3 practice sessions in between to start to lock in swing changes. And that is from someone who started at 14, played 27 years, but have always been plagued with a flat swing and over the top move.

 

Golf is too technical a game for most people to figure out on their own, certainly based on the average persons work/life schedule, you are unlikely to be as blessed as Hogan was to find it in the dirt.

[spoonek9]

To funny! The only hard part of golf is mental!! The body only does what the mind tells it to do or what the mind sees!

[jbw749]

The golf swing in general is a well developed neural pattern, so if you have decent mechanics, you aren't thinking much during the swing anyway. You become content knowing your swing yields decent/good results. But if you have a poor swing, its fully ingrained, no amount of pure mental will is going to magically replace that neural pattern with a better one.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about and why I believe many never improve at golf.

If you have a poor swing, but decent fundamentals you can absolutely improve your swing with just your mind. Lol dude what else could improve your swing more than your mind? Your hips? That doesn't even make sense. It's not magic it's a conscious effort.

Everyone thinks "nope dig it out of the dirt, blood, sweat, tears for decades is only way. Keep doing that if you want, but golf doesn't have to be as hard as we make it. It's still hard, just not anywhere near as hard and a lot more fun.

[jbw749]

Oikos1,

 

Well I'm kind of saying that yes. But it would first takes some golf IQ. Assuming you can legitimately shoot low 90's high 80's yes you could shoot in the mid 70's using just meta-awareness. The reason being is that your mechanics, tension, swing plane, low point control can drastically improve by eliminating fear of failure on a consistent basis, it's Non-judgmental awareness the ability to see things without judging them good or bad. It's an entire lifestyle change, a completely different way you approach the game. So there is going to be pushback here.

I've been a 3 for a long long time, the only difference is now it takes virtually no practice to maintain it and there's no ups and downs.

I'm very career focused now, but will get back into golf full steam ahead at some point.

[WIGMAN]

Play golf every year with my golfing buddy who is a 7 hcp . We play 2 rounds a day for a few days and he gives me about 8 shots considering I don't have an official handicap and only play about 8 times a year on 'pay and play' courses. He is a member of a challenging private course in Ipswich (Thorpeness) and plays at least once a week , practices his short game , putting , while all I do is 'cut grass' in my backyard. He has beaten me about 10 times in a row until the last few years when I actually 'understood' WIG and just used mental focus to try and feel what I am intending to do with the clubface (swing to target). My driving is so much more accurate and my distance now on par with my mate although he still beats me easily on the short game . That's enough proof for me that WIG works once you 'get it' and keep applying that mental focus until it becomes an ingrained habit, not learning by micro-managed mechanics.

[Tanner25]

Oikos1,

 

Well I'm kind of saying that yes. But it would first takes some golf IQ. Assuming you can legitimately shoot low 90's high 80's yes you could shoot in the mid 70's using just meta-awareness. The reason being is that your mechanics, tension, swing plane, low point control can drastically improve by eliminating fear of failure on a consistent basis, it's Non-judgmental awareness the ability to see things without judging them good or bad. It's an entire lifestyle change, a completely different way you approach the game. So there is going to be pushback here.

I've been a 3 for a long long time, the only difference is now it takes virtually no practice to maintain it and there's no ups and downs.

I'm very career focused now, but will get back into golf full steam ahead at some point.

 

Hmm, if you are already a 3, it should come natural to you, not to think. You already have the secret, lol

[Tanner25]

Play golf every year with my golfing buddy who is a 7 hcp . We play 2 rounds a day for a few days and he gives me about 8 shots considering I don't have an official handicap and only play about 8 times a year on 'pay and play' courses. He is a member of a challenging private course in Ipswich (Thorpeness) and plays at least once a week , practices his short game , putting , while all I do is 'cut grass' in my backyard. He has beaten me about 10 times in a row until the last few years when I actually 'understood' WIG and just used mental focus to try and feel what I am intending to do with the clubface (swing to target). My driving is so much more accurate and my distance now on par with my mate although he still beats me easily on the short game . That's enough proof for me that WIG works once you 'get it' and keep applying that mental focus until it becomes an ingrained habit, not learning by micro-managed mechanics.

 

What does WIG stand for?

[jut111]

The golf swing in general is a well developed neural pattern, so if you have decent mechanics, you aren't thinking much during the swing anyway. You become content knowing your swing yields decent/good results. But if you have a poor swing, its fully ingrained, no amount of pure mental will is going to magically replace that neural pattern with a better one.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about and why I believe many never improve at golf.

If you have a poor swing, but decent fundamentals you can absolutely improve your swing with just your mind. Lol dude what else could improve your swing more than your mind? Your hips? That doesn't even make sense. It's not magic it's a conscious effort.

Everyone thinks "nope dig it out of the dirt, blood, sweat, tears for decades is only way. Keep doing that if you want, but golf doesn't have to be as hard as we make it. It's still hard, just not anywhere near as hard and a lot more fun.

 

How can you have a poor swing with decent fundamentals? Seems like a contradiction to me but probably just a difference in how we define terms. Not trying to stir the pot, of course I believe the mind plays a huge role just trying to better understand your ideas on the subject.

[WIGMAN]

Play golf every year with my golfing buddy who is a 7 hcp . We play 2 rounds a day for a few days and he gives me about 8 shots considering I don't have an official handicap and only play about 8 times a year on 'pay and play' courses. He is a member of a challenging private course in Ipswich (Thorpeness) and plays at least once a week , practices his short game , putting , while all I do is 'cut grass' in my backyard. He has beaten me about 10 times in a row until the last few years when I actually 'understood' WIG and just used mental focus to try and feel what I am intending to do with the clubface (swing to target). My driving is so much more accurate and my distance now on par with my mate although he still beats me easily on the short game . That's enough proof for me that WIG works once you 'get it' and keep applying that mental focus until it becomes an ingrained habit, not learning by micro-managed mechanics.

 

What does WIG stand for?

 

Wisdom In Golf.

[finleysg]

I am visualizing the Professor Harold Hill school of golf reading this thread.

[WIGMAN]

Same old - different day. No one ever said the bolded above was the ONLY way to 'get better'. But 'getting better' has different meanings to different players. Folks would consider Dana Dahlquist a mechanical teacher, but he works most with low-plus caps. They are far beyond throwing the club down the fairway but have slight mechanical flaws that need correcting. But high caps might improve if they improve their full swing motion first. What is your definition of a mechanical instructor ?

 

If dramatic improvement got you from say a 25 to a 15, good for you and kudos to Shawn Clement for giving you what you needed. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're not going to get from a 15 without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing.

 

As for the mental side, the better your mechanics get and more good shots hit, the less frustrating the game will become. And if you perfect & ingrain your mechanics to the best of your playing ability, you & others will eventually lose the swing thoughts that haunt you when you get on the golf course.

 

Krt22 also said

"The golf swing in general is a well developed neural pattern, so if you have decent mechanics, you aren't thinking much during the swing anyway. You become content knowing your swing yields decent/good results. But if you have a poor swing, its fully ingrained, no amount of pure mental will is going to magically replace that neural pattern with a better one."

 

The bolded statements don't make sense to me. "Slight mechanical flaws that need correcting" ! So do you think there are mechanic experts out there who you can trust to identify and fix a swing fault that may cause a half inch deviation from sweetspot strike ( the difference between a good and poor strike)? Good luck with that !

 

The same goes for "without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing. So who are these 'experts' who can claim 100% confidence that they can fix the mechanical problems in a golfers swing ? To fix something, they must be comparing the 'fault' to something they perceive as deemed optimal. But I don't know of anyone who can claim to understand the mechanics of a perfect swing. Can you name one?

 

As for Krt22 's inference that a poor swing is ingrained is not totally true because experiments show that the brain rebels against 'repetition' . It actually rebuilds all the circuits of a task from afresh and doesn't use something which (as a whole) is pre-programmed. If you altered your focus to the outcome of an intended task , your subconscious will takeover and facilitate the mechanics you require. Let your subconscious respond to the feedback if the outcome is not as intended and let it guide you on how to make and feel a better outcome the next time.

[glk]

Same old - different day. No one ever said the bolded above was the ONLY way to 'get better'. But 'getting better' has different meanings to different players. Folks would consider Dana Dahlquist a mechanical teacher, but he works most with low-plus caps. They are far beyond throwing the club down the fairway but have slight mechanical flaws that need correcting. But high caps might improve if they improve their full swing motion first. What is your definition of a mechanical instructor ?

 

If dramatic improvement got you from say a 25 to a 15, good for you and kudos to Shawn Clement for giving you what you needed. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're not going to get from a 15 without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing.

 

As for the mental side, the better your mechanics get and more good shots hit, the less frustrating the game will become. And if you perfect & ingrain your mechanics to the best of your playing ability, you & others will eventually lose the swing thoughts that haunt you when you get on the golf course.

 

Krt22 also said

"The golf swing in general is a well developed neural pattern, so if you have decent mechanics, you aren't thinking much during the swing anyway. You become content knowing your swing yields decent/good results. But if you have a poor swing, its fully ingrained, no amount of pure mental will is going to magically replace that neural pattern with a better one."

 

The bolded statements don't make sense to me. "Slight mechanical flaws that need correcting" ! So do you think there are mechanic experts out there who you can trust to identify and fix a swing fault that may cause a half inch deviation from sweetspot strike ( the difference between a good and poor strike)? Good luck with that !

 

The same goes for "without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing. So who are these 'experts' who can claim 100% confidence that they can fix the mechanical problems in a golfers swing ? To fix something, they must be comparing the 'fault' to something they perceive as deemed optimal. But I don't know of anyone who can claim to understand the mechanics of a perfect swing. Can you name one?

 

As for Krt22 's inference that a poor swing is ingrained is not totally true because experiments show that the brain rebels against 'repetition' . It actually rebuilds all the circuits of a task from afresh and doesn't use something which (as a whole) is pre-programmed. If you altered your focus to the outcome of an intended task , your subconscious will takeover and facilitate the mechanics you require. Let your subconscious respond to the feedback if the outcome is not as intended and let it guide you on how to make and feel a better outcome the next time.

You haven't been paying attention then. Here's one. https://www.instagram.com/dancarraher/

 

Let's see this brain study stuff. I learned to drive at 16 and at 68 I still do pretty well. I can use a knife and fork too and I learned that long ago. And I'm using my high school typing class right now, oh my. Color me skeptical. Your subconscious doesn't know how to do a task better than your conscious - you want to learn something you go through stages of conscious incompetence to subconscious competence - it's called training/learning.

[Ghost of Snead]

Same old - different day. No one ever said the bolded above was the ONLY way to 'get better'. But 'getting better' has different meanings to different players. Folks would consider Dana Dahlquist a mechanical teacher, but he works most with low-plus caps. They are far beyond throwing the club down the fairway but have slight mechanical flaws that need correcting. But high caps might improve if they improve their full swing motion first. What is your definition of a mechanical instructor ?

 

If dramatic improvement got you from say a 25 to a 15, good for you and kudos to Shawn Clement for giving you what you needed. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're not going to get from a 15 without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing.

 

As for the mental side, the better your mechanics get and more good shots hit, the less frustrating the game will become. And if you perfect & ingrain your mechanics to the best of your playing ability, you & others will eventually lose the swing thoughts that haunt you when you get on the golf course.

 

The bolded statements don't make sense to me. "Slight mechanical flaws that need correcting" ! So do you think there are mechanic experts out there who you can trust to identify and fix a swing fault that may cause a half inch deviation from sweetspot strike ( the difference between a good and poor strike)? Good luck with that !

 

The same goes for "without fixing the mechanical problems in your swing. So who are these 'experts' who can claim 100% confidence that they can fix the mechanical problems in a golfers swing ? To fix something, they must be comparing the 'fault' to something they perceive as deemed optimal. But I don't know of anyone who can claim to understand the mechanics of a perfect swing. Can you name one?

 

 

Any tour-level instructor will be able to fix a mechanical flaw in your swing - pick one. I'm sure there are also instructors that don't teach tour level pros that can also do the same. None of them come to the lesson tee with a weed whacker.

[TB07]

The ball may not be the target but the clubfave needs to contact the ball. You can’t just ignore the golf ball and swing to the target. The club doesn’t swing to the target anyway. It’s swings around the target and the club face is not on the target line very long. Bottom line you have to be able to hit the ball with the face and make the ball go to the target. In these “good practice swings” there is no ball to hit and make go to the target so all a practice swing LOOKS like is that it’s smoother. Which gets confused with actually being good. Show me a practice swing that is GOOD with a bad real swing and I’ll show you flaws.