Is Too Much Attention Spent On Swing Mechanics (at the amateur level)

[Millbrook]

That's exactly right. It's about club awareness. The club has the most 'fixed' points so if you think about that the action is much easier.

 

Yes, the post was not tongue in cheek. It seems to me that every 'good' swing has a geometry to it which revolves around the club rather than the athletic nature of the golfer or their mechanics.

I may not be explaining this well but I'm going to work with this.

 

I guess when I start asking the club what it wants to do and the men in white coats come for me I'll have taken it too far.

[TB07]

Exactly. He sticks with what works for him since he's already a good player and for the most part an outlier.

 

In reality most amatuers have big mechanical flaws that prevent them from improving and are largely disillusioned that there is a snake oil fix out there, with "learn to swing your swing" being one of them

 

In reality there are some basic mechanics that should be learned, or at least understood to recognize cause & effect. Hogan's book is still one of the best.

 

But look at guys like Couple's who make a mockery of people obsessing over every move on the back swing. He simply picks up the club, sets it at the top and swings. Other's have odd - impossible wrist positions at the top, yet make millions on tour. The only commonality for pro's is impact position.

 

Most guys I know, including myself (now fixed) swing too early, rush their swing with their arms without body-connected rotation, causing early extension. I corrected this with a swing fan....$39 on Amazon.

 

What about the impact position is common among pros?

[oikos1]

That's exactly right. It's about club awareness. The club has the most 'fixed' points so if you think about that the action is much easier.

 

Yes, the post was not tongue in cheek. It seems to me that every 'good' swing has a geometry to it which revolves around the club rather than the athletic nature of the golfer or their mechanics.

I may not be explaining this well but I'm going to work with this.

 

I guess when I start asking the club what it wants to do and the men in white coats come for me I'll have taken it too far.

Let go of the club at any point during your swing and then come back and tell us who the master is.

[FourTops]

I was having the worst round of my life on Saturday, OK a busted knee and bad head cold didn't help but not the full reason.

 

I took a new thought to the course and was dreadful.

 

After 11 holes I changed. I thought just present the club to the ball. The swing felt slower, every drive hit the fairway with no loss in distance.

 

All the talk of Zen and the like makes me think that I don't play golf, my clubs do. I am the servant of the clubs. It is my role to present them to the ball so they can achieve their purpose.

I must not interfere with their purpose.

 

IMO what you're describing is letting your body be "at one" with the club vs. fighting the club. Sounds like Zen BS I know....but at the same time for some reason you can walk down a staircase without thinking....your body knows what to do....to a large extent.

[FourTops]

Exactly. He sticks with what works for him since he's already a good player and for the most part an outlier.

 

In reality most amatuers have big mechanical flaws that prevent them from improving and are largely disillusioned that there is a snake oil fix out there, with "learn to swing your swing" being one of them

 

In reality there are some basic mechanics that should be learned, or at least understood to recognize cause & effect. Hogan's book is still one of the best.

 

But look at guys like Couple's who make a mockery of people obsessing over every move on the back swing. He simply picks up the club, sets it at the top and swings. Other's have odd - impossible wrist positions at the top, yet make millions on tour. The only commonality for pro's is impact position.

 

Most guys I know, including myself (now fixed) swing too early, rush their swing with their arms without body-connected rotation, causing early extension. I corrected this with a swing fan....$39 on Amazon.

 

What about the impact position is common among pros?

 

I'm not going down your rabbit hole of nit-picking logic.

[vman]

Exactly. He sticks with what works for him since he's already a good player and for the most part an outlier.

 

In reality most amatuers have big mechanical flaws that prevent them from improving and are largely disillusioned that there is a snake oil fix out there, with "learn to swing your swing" being one of them

 

In reality there are some basic mechanics that should be learned, or at least understood to recognize cause & effect. Hogan's book is still one of the best.

 

But look at guys like Couple's who make a mockery of people obsessing over every move on the back swing. He simply picks up the club, sets it at the top and swings. Other's have odd - impossible wrist positions at the top, yet make millions on tour. The only commonality for pro's is impact position.

 

Most guys I know, including myself (now fixed) swing too early, rush their swing with their arms without body-connected rotation, causing early extension. I corrected this with a swing fan....$39 on Amazon.

 

What about the impact position is common among pros?

Thier strike location, club face relative to path and angle of attack are producing consistently good results. They all have this in common.

[Golfer4Life]

I think so.

[davep043]

Exactly. He sticks with what works for him since he's already a good player and for the most part an outlier.

 

In reality most amatuers have big mechanical flaws that prevent them from improving and are largely disillusioned that there is a snake oil fix out there, with "learn to swing your swing" being one of them

 

In reality there are some basic mechanics that should be learned, or at least understood to recognize cause & effect. Hogan's book is still one of the best.

 

But look at guys like Couple's who make a mockery of people obsessing over every move on the back swing. He simply picks up the club, sets it at the top and swings. Other's have odd - impossible wrist positions at the top, yet make millions on tour. The only commonality for pro's is impact position.

 

Most guys I know, including myself (now fixed) swing too early, rush their swing with their arms without body-connected rotation, causing early extension. I corrected this with a swing fan....$39 on Amazon.

 

What about the impact position is common among pros?

Thier strike location, club face relative to path and angle of attack are producing consistently good results. They all have this in common.

Good players will almost always have a pretty straight line from their left shoulder, through their left wrist and down to the clubhead at impact. Some do that as a specific goal, others do that as a result of everything else they do before impact. They do it no matter what their thought process during the swing.

[TB07]

Exactly. He sticks with what works for him since he's already a good player and for the most part an outlier.

 

In reality most amatuers have big mechanical flaws that prevent them from improving and are largely disillusioned that there is a snake oil fix out there, with "learn to swing your swing" being one of them

 

In reality there are some basic mechanics that should be learned, or at least understood to recognize cause & effect. Hogan's book is still one of the best.

 

But look at guys like Couple's who make a mockery of people obsessing over every move on the back swing. He simply picks up the club, sets it at the top and swings. Other's have odd - impossible wrist positions at the top, yet make millions on tour. The only commonality for pro's is impact position.

 

Most guys I know, including myself (now fixed) swing too early, rush their swing with their arms without body-connected rotation, causing early extension. I corrected this with a swing fan....$39 on Amazon.

 

What about the impact position is common among pros?

Thier strike location, club face relative to path and angle of attack are producing consistently good results. They all have this in common.

 

But they all have different paths, face angles, and AoA so how is that a commonality?

[vman]

Exactly. He sticks with what works for him since he's already a good player and for the most part an outlier.

 

In reality most amatuers have big mechanical flaws that prevent them from improving and are largely disillusioned that there is a snake oil fix out there, with "learn to swing your swing" being one of them

 

In reality there are some basic mechanics that should be learned, or at least understood to recognize cause & effect. Hogan's book is still one of the best.

 

But look at guys like Couple's who make a mockery of people obsessing over every move on the back swing. He simply picks up the club, sets it at the top and swings. Other's have odd - impossible wrist positions at the top, yet make millions on tour. The only commonality for pro's is impact position.

 

Most guys I know, including myself (now fixed) swing too early, rush their swing with their arms without body-connected rotation, causing early extension. I corrected this with a swing fan....$39 on Amazon.

 

What about the impact position is common among pros?

Thier strike location, club face relative to path and angle of attack are producing consistently good results. They all have this in common.

 

But they all have different paths, face angles, and AoA so how is that a commonality?

The accuracy/repetitiveness of it is a commonality, whatever their resultant, desired ball flight is....but you know this.

[TB07]

Well that’s not impact position. That’s more like saying the only commonality they have is that they are good, or that they hit the ball good.

[vman]

Well that's not impact position. That's more like saying the only commonality they have is that they are good, or that they hit the ball good.

Impact isn't really a position though is it? And you're right... you've probably already found your answers.

[Krt22]

I'd say instead of looking at what all pros have in common, I'd say it's better to ask yourself what major flaws that you see in amateurs are largely absent for most pros. Most pros don't sway way off the ball, fan the face wide open, pull the handle down, lunge toward the target, hang back in transition, out race the arms with the hips, get way disconnected with tons of arm over run, etc etc etc.

 

In reality most amateurs do have 1 or more of these types of flaws and largely wont improve until they address them

[Zitlow]

Instead of being fixated on positions such as impact position, it's better to focus on one synergistic motion.

[davep043]

Instead of being fixated on positions such as impact position, it's better to focus on one synergistic motion.

With the right expertise (and I mean an instructor), positions can be checkpoints on the way to improving the "synergistic motion."

[Krt22]

Exactly. And if you are a typical amateur with a few key flaws that lead to a bunch of compensations, trying to fix them simultaneously with one "synergistic motion" likely won't result in any net improvement since that synergistic motion is what is flawed in the first place.

[jbw749]

Exactly. And if you are a typical amateur with a few key flaws that lead to a bunch of compensations, trying to fix them simultaneously with one "synergistic motion" likely won't result in any net improvement since that synergistic motion is what is flawed in the first place.

The thread is pretty long, but back in the first few pages we are conceding that the player must have some golf IQ. So not necessarily for the ultra beginner with major set up and grip issues.

But what I am suggesting is the exact opposite of what you wrote above. So the synergistic motion can actually IMPROVE the mechanics. This should be intriguing to many of you who have struggled for ever, because it flies in the face of modern instruction and could be the reason you're not improving. The other great thing about this approach is it has no downside to set you back as you are not trying anything new mechanically. Your simply learning to swing with your mind in a different place and basically disconnecting with the outcome of the shot. It's also totally bad a** when you get it, because you easily recognize people who don't and can get a leg up on them.

[Nickc]

Maybe try this idea to free your mind from swing mechanics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmJy80h5I5Q

 

[Krt22]

I' m not talking about ultra beginners or even high index hackers. Plenty of low to mid caps that have a few flaws that are ultimately what holds back their ball striking. This same group of golfers generally also have some golf IQ. In general a lot about golf is counter intuitive, so knowing what their real issue is and how to fix it can be a big mystery. Then there is also the group that is largely in denial, think their swing is fine, but instead search for some mental approach that will magically cure their issues, and then never improve.

 

As for this thread being long and "this thing" that you have found. I've seen you talk about it numerous times, so what exactly is..."it"? Or do I need to pay someone to find out?

[birly-shirly]

I' m not talking about ultra beginners or even high index hackers. Plenty of low to mid caps that have a few flaws that are ultimately what holds back their ball striking. This same group of golfers generally also have some golf IQ. In general a lot about golf is counter intuitive, so knowing what their real issue is and how to fix it can be a big mystery. Then there is also the group that is largely in denial, think their swing is fine, but instead search for some mental approach that will magically cure their issues, and then never improve.

 

As for this thread being long and "this thing" that you have found. I've seen you talk about it numerous times, so what exactly is..."it"? Or do I need to pay someone to find out?

 

I'm a 9. So not golfingly subnormal, but not terribly gifted either. I have however dived as deep into Gallwey's Inner Game as anyone I've ever met in person, and most people who I've read online. I would LOVE to play the game as Gallwey describes it. And I honestly believe that I have succeeded in playing without judgement or expectations.

 

But I am sceptical of at least a couple of things.

 

One, that freeing the mind will lead to fundamentally improved mechanics. Letting go of judgement did nothing to improve my turn.

 

Two, that a "still" mind is sufficient to create consistent performance - even on top of mechanics that, for a 9 index, are not bad. I have had just too many REALLY destructive shots that came out of absolutely nowhere. No pressure, anxiety, self-talk or judgement - nothing that I could after-the-fact rationalise in Inner Game theory as the cause of such a bad shot.

 

One thing that always troubled me was that I intuitively felt that Inner Game practice should shine the brightest in the creative parts of the game, which to me would seem to be putting and pitching. And those are aspects of my game which are resolutely poor.

 

For sure, I think mindset and attitude are crucially important. But they also have their limitations. I found my limits as I tried to break into single figures. I don't doubt that some will get further than me, but I suspect that others will not get even so far, without also getting competent help with their mechanics.

[jbw749]

I' m not talking about ultra beginners or even high index hackers. Plenty of low to mid caps that have a few flaws that are ultimately what holds back their ball striking. This same group of golfers generally also have some golf IQ. In general a lot about golf is counter intuitive, so knowing what their real issue is and how to fix it can be a big mystery. Then there is also the group that is largely in denial, think their swing is fine, but instead search for some mental approach that will magically cure their issues, and then never improve.

 

As for this thread being long and "this thing" that you have found. I've seen you talk about it numerous times, so what exactly is..."it"? Or do I need to pay someone to find out?

No you don't need to pay anyone. Any literature on the subject is cheap. The problem (if you want to call it that) is unless you understand meta-awareness in some form and buy into it, you will never get it. And it's very difficult to figure out unless you get there through your own journey. After you get there its amazingly easy to use and improve on. It is the only thing other than the most basic fundamentals that has stood the test of time. Unlike swing thoughts or feels or commanding or talking to body parts while swinging. All of which never lasted more than 2 weeks for me.

To your point of wasting time using the mental game. If you're understanding meta-awareness you will learn advanced mechanics when instructed by a good instructor much faster.

I'm just saying you will either get a good head start on it or will find out you're better than you thought you were.

 

[Krt22]

Serious question, do you have a link on what you recommend or is being obscure part of "finding it"

[jbw749]

I' m not talking about ultra beginners or even high index hackers. Plenty of low to mid caps that have a few flaws that are ultimately what holds back their ball striking. This same group of golfers generally also have some golf IQ. In general a lot about golf is counter intuitive, so knowing what their real issue is and how to fix it can be a big mystery. Then there is also the group that is largely in denial, think their swing is fine, but instead search for some mental approach that will magically cure their issues, and then never improve.

 

As for this thread being long and "this thing" that you have found. I've seen you talk about it numerous times, so what exactly is..."it"? Or do I need to pay someone to find out?

 

I'm a 9. So not golfingly subnormal, but not terribly gifted either. I have however dived as deep into Gallwey's Inner Game as anyone I've ever met in person, and most people who I've read online. I would LOVE to play the game as Gallwey describes it. And I honestly believe that I have succeeded in playing without judgement or expectations.

 

But I am sceptical of at least a couple of things.

 

One, that freeing the mind will lead to fundamentally improved mechanics. Letting go of judgement did nothing to improve my turn.

 

Two, that a "still" mind is sufficient to create consistent performance - even on top of mechanics that, for a 9 index, are not bad. I have had just too many REALLY destructive shots that came out of absolutely nowhere. No pressure, anxiety, self-talk or judgement - nothing that I could after-the-fact rationalise in Inner Game theory as the cause of such a bad shot.

 

One thing that always troubled me was that I intuitively felt that Inner Game practice should shine the brightest in the creative parts of the game, which to me would seem to be putting and pitching. And those are aspects of my game which are resolutely poor.

 

For sure, I think mindset and attitude are crucially important. But they also have their limitations. I found my limits as I tried to break into single figures. I don't doubt that some will get further than me, but I suspect that others will not get even so far, without also getting competent help with their mechanics.

I think knowing how not to judge will rapidly excel learning. The feels you get when forcing the body and club into a position isn't necessarily how it will feel when the club happens to "get there" without thinking or by using an external thought. In my journey those feelings were way different, it was important not to judge how it felt, but to just be content with it.

That's basically what I was going for with the title of the thread.

I'm not saying you didn't dig deep enough, because I think you met Gallwey or Shoemaker if I remember right. I have taken it too far, basically just swinging my arms like wet noodles without a care in the world, but when I reeled it back I'm still miles apart from people using any internal thoughts. In fact if I use any internal thought I either get clanky contact or hit it fat. Same swing with external thoughts produces sweet spot contact with good low point control. It's crazy I know, but remarkably consistent.

 

[jbw749]

Serious question, do you have a link on what you recommend or is being obscure part of "finding it"

 

Not a crazy question, I've been popping in and out of here for 2 1/2 years preaching about this. I thought it would be easy to explain, but I'm learning it's not. Birly is wicked smart and has been on golf forums since the internet was invented and it didn't help him.

I'll see what I can find. And get back

[Jim Waldron]

Lots of mis-conceptions here about how the mind affects the body. The reason working on your mental state, mental focus and Meta-Awareness has such an amazing positive impact on your golf shots is NOT because your mental state will somehow magically improve your old swing mechanics, in the way the good lessons followed by dedicated practice with a ton of reps will do.

 

Rather the proper mental state will make it nearly impossible to "flinch" which is some form of excessive muscle tension happening in your body. That tension will then hurt your mechanics. Which will then create poor impact which then creates a bad shot.

 

It means recognizing that fear. anxiety or a wandering mind literally create that flinch in a micro-second, which makes your body and club move in really bad ways that never happen when you do not flinch.

 

Would you rather play golf with your "regular old swing" with let's say three flaws that show up most of the time (including on your non-ball swings or mulligan swings or swings during a nine hole practice round by yourself where you are not keeping score and thus no pressure) but without any sort of flinch, or that same swing that breaks down under pressure and manifests a flinch plus those three flaws that are normally present?

 

I will take the non-flinch swing any day of the week!!

[Jim Waldron]

Meta-Awareness is the relatively new term in Neuroscience for the kind of mental state that Buddhism has been advocating for over 2500 years.

 

It has about a dozen different aspects but the main one is simply this: the ability of your mind to observe itself.

 

When you are in that state, it is crystal clear that you know exactly what your mind is doing or paying attention to.

 

It is NOT the normal state of consciousness for 99.999% of human beings.

 

It needs to be learned through instruction and practice.

 

The main value is this - if you notice that your mind is functioning in a neurotic or toxic or dysfunctional way, it means that very noticing allows you to then change your state to a higher functioning state that tends to produce positive outcomes. In normal consciousness, oftentimes you do not actually notice how toxic your state is so you go ahead and act on that negative state, which tends to create more problems or more forms of suffering and more bad golf shots.

 

Here are some of the other aspects of Meta-Awareness; 1. you are clearly in the present moment and NOT engaging in memories of the past or fantasies of the future. 2. no judgement 3. acceptance of what is happening right in front of you in this moment with no resistance. 4. understanding what you can actually control and what you cannot control. 5. your personal sense of identity does not link itself to what your observing, so there is a sense of internal "space" in the mind between what you are paying attention to and your own sense of self. That "space" tends to make you much less emotionally reactive to negative or stressful situations. It is extremely helpful for playing high level golf in "pressure" situations and still performing well since you no longer perceive the golf hole in front of you as a "threat" in any way. This is one of the keys to my Yips Cure program. It cuts through the fear and anxiety.

[jbw749]

Dang Jim I can see you've been working hard at it. #5 is key for me I dont personally identify with the task. It's just a task. If I don't identify with it I dont fear it wont work. If there's no fear there's no flinch.

If there's no flinch you're mechanics might be a bit different than you're accustomed to.

[Jim Waldron]

Dang Jim I can see you've been working hard at it. #5 is key for me I dont personally identify with the task. It's just a task. If I don't identify with it I dont fear it wont work. If there's no fear there's no flinch.

If there's no flinch you're mechanics might be a bit different than you're accustomed to.

 

Exactly - that sense of space can be achieved through several ways. Hogan knew of it and advocated for it. He called it "removing myself from the shotmaking process". He said that mid to high cappers hit a lot of awful shots because as they got closer to pulling the trigger and starting their swing they "added themselves" emotionally, ie they tried harder emotionally to not hit a bad shot or to hit a good shot. He felt like he did the opposite.

 

When you totally remove your sense of self-worth/ego from the shot outcome, there is no fear and thus no flinch.

 

I call it "emotional disengagement" and it is a golf skill that can be learned just like a good grip or pivot.

 

A huge part of how I teach the mental game and have been successful in curing very severe cases of the yips is based on that kind of disengagement of emotions. And part of how that works is learning how to switch off the "threat scan" part of the brain. An over-active and/or hyper-sensitive threat scan is one of the primary reasons for PTSD, depression, anxiety and low intensity neurotic behavior. Learning how to switch it off is a huge benefit to one's mental health in general and really can help golfer's to play much better very quickly.

 

It means never seeing any aspect of the golf course as a "threat" to your self in any way.

[Krt22]

Lots of mis-conceptions here about how the mind affects the body. The reason working on your mental state, mental focus and Meta-Awareness has such an amazing positive impact on your golf shots is NOT because your mental state will somehow magically improve your old swing mechanics, in the way the good lessons followed by dedicated practice with a ton of reps will do.

 

Rather the proper mental state will make it nearly impossible to "flinch" which is some form of excessive muscle tension happening in your body. That tension will then hurt your mechanics. Which will then create poor impact which then creates a bad shot.

 

It means recognizing that fear. anxiety or a wandering mind literally create that flinch in a micro-second, which makes your body and club move in really bad ways that never happen when you do not flinch.

 

Would you rather play golf with your "regular old swing" with let's say three flaws that show up most of the time (including on your non-ball swings or mulligan swings or swings during a nine hole practice round by yourself where you are not keeping score and thus no pressure) but without any sort of flinch, or that same swing that breaks down under pressure and manifests a flinch plus those three flaws that are normally present?

 

I will take the non-flinch swing any day of the week!!

 

Thanks for clearing that up, it seems like quite a few folks in here are advocating otherwise.

[FourTops]

What is "Synergistic motion"/