Is Too Much Attention Spent On Swing Mechanics (at the amateur level)

[jbw749]

Swing your own swing is probably a good mantra for sub 10 handicappers who want to enjoy themselves every weekend.

 

The majority of amateur golfers own swings are so bad that they still struggle to play bogey golf with a great short game. You gotta remember that anyone shooting mid 80's is a great amateur golfer statistically speaking, and by far don't represent the whole.

 

YMMV.

 

True but those who shoot mid 80's are usually not happy with their game. This is the group I'm talking about. Shooting mid 80's probably means your swing is good enough, so it's time to start searching elsewhere.

 

Good enough for what ? To play the best golf you are capable of ?

 

Good enough to stop working on mechanics and start working on placing your focus somewhere else. Like maybe a trigger to start the swing, but after that the mind is focused on something consistent every time and it's got nothing to do with mechanics.

Infact any focus on mechanics would result in a unsequenced non athletic poorly timed swing, robbing speed, distance and accuracy.

If you are somehow good enough to play golf while juggling mechanical thoughts and regularly shoot mid 80's, I believe you could be one of the best golfers in your area and flirt with shooting even par once you understand how to place your mind.

 

 

 

[jbw749]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

 

[glk]

I’m well aware what angle of attack is. I misspoke. A steep downswing will limit how good you can be, period.

I’m well aware what angle of attack is. I misspoke. A steep downswing will limit how good you can be, period.

Brian Gay, John Senden, Paul Casey, Phil to name a few might have a different view.

[BrandonG31]

Meaning what? I literally just looked at every one of their swings and each one of them have the shaft going through their trail forearm coming into the ball.

[BrandonG31]

Certain golfers may look different coming down because of compensations that need to happen during the swing but no great player gets to impact steep, cutting across the ball with a flip.

[glk]

Meaning what? I literally just looked at every one of their swings and each one of them have the shaft going through their trail forearm coming into the ball.

Really, then you need to better define what going through their trail forearm is cause these guys are all steep and early extend to get shallow.

 

When does Casey get that shaft on his trail forearm?

[jbw749]

I think where Brandon and glk are going with this is: It's pointless to study what tour pros do subconsciously and try to duplicate it consciously while playing golf.

Very good guys.

[BrandonG31]

 

 

 

No idea why it’s pasting the Phil video

 

Look at the other Paul Casey videos from a more straight on angle.

[BrandonG31]

You can see him lay the shaft down from the top, that’s not over the top.

[glk]

You can see him lay the shaft down from the top, that’s not over the top.

Never said over the top. Or that they are steep and cut across the ball

Shalft aligned with forearm.

 

Not.

[Ghost of Snead]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

No, the biggest reason is that the average golfer doesn't have the time or patience to ingrain the proper swing mechanics prescribed by an instructor. They either give up or jump instructors. All of us know mid-80s shooters that couldn't ever sniff ever par because their swing is mechanically flawed and they don't hit the ball as well as someone who shoots ever par - or their short game/putting sucks. And these are guys who are not full of mechanical thoughts while actually playing a round.

[BrandonG31]

In all those pics, where is that shaft headed when they continue to turn?

[glk]

In all those pics, where is that shaft headed when they continue to turn?

Not lining up with the forearm that's for sure. Down and out to the all. Time to move along for me.

[dap]

Phil's pattern is across the line at the top, steep in transition and then shallows late. Most great ball strikers don't do this but it is what it is for Phil. Butch tried to shorten his backswing so he's less across the line but it didn't work for Phil. That's his pattern and I suppose this is what the OP is alluding to.

[uitar9]

To a hacker like me, these threads are fascinating. Take the word shallow-just say shallow and the thread takes off in different directions. Shallow means different things to different people

 

When I hear swing mechanics, I turn off. AOA, Lie angles, shaft lengths, I turn off.

 

Now, when an instructor asks me to start my downswing and physically moves my hands, arms, shoulders, whatever into a position he prefers, to eliminate poor or improve specific ball flight, that makes sense to me. I can feel the change and I can see ball flight.

 

Maybe its not feel vs mechanics. Maybe its the differences in how we learn.

 

If my instructor doesn't identify with how I learn, he or she is useless to me.

 

I'm that bogey golfer with a decent short game. Down the middle, little distance, GIR +1. My "ask" is a little more distance while maintaining accuracy. I found a little more distance this winter by incorporating one change into my down swing. A suggestion that I understand. That has resulted on another change-improving my flexibility

 

My other learning-folks that do not visit golf web sites are happy with what ever their swing is.

[BrandonG31]

So you’re saying when they continue to turn and the club is going down, it won’t. Got ya.

[BrandonG31]

I’ve stated that also. Some look different than others because of other variables throughout the swing. But none of them come into contact with the ball steep. Great players struggle with getting stuck because they shallow the club too much.

[lehill66]

I rarely talk to a good player who focuses on swing mechanics.In fact,when I ask them about their mechanics they seem clueless.They seem to talk more about picturing the shot or focusing on alignment,etc.I find that typically the better somebody is at a sport or game the less they know about the science of how they do it.

 

This is true. There’s a reason you still see professionals using a $10 training aid (alignment sticks).

[RichieHunt]

What I see and have been guilty of myself is the lack of understanding mechanics and aesthetics.

 

I think 95% of having a 'pretty swing' is tempo and the finish. But that doesn't mean I want to have that pretty swing when an unusual swing like Bubba Watson's is far superior mechanically.

 

So often times the pretty swing is not mechanically as good as the ugly swing. Many golfers don't understand that because they are uneducated to how the body and swing works.

 

The other issue is that when golfers get on a good track for what to work on mechanically, they are thinking about the mechanics and hope that a swing thought/visual will allow them to repeat those mechanics. The practice methods used to actually ingrain quality mechanics are so poor that they blame the mechanics and the scientific method towards analyzing the golf swing instead of understanding that their practice methods are the exact opposite of what needs to be done to incorporate those mechanics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[FatReed]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

JBW

 

Well said.

 

The problem is that most golfers, particularly on WRX, refuse to accept that changing their focus will change their golf swing (motion).

 

Golfers cling to focusing on positions and mechanics of the golf swing (motion) itself in an attempt to modify the motion, giving chase to the depths of the rabbit whole.

 

One member on this forum seems to have a single agenda, which relates to his self-appointed role as defender of modern instruction. . . and to point out that amateur (most) golfers are largely inept in their approach, not golf instruction.

 

To be fair, I suppose I have taken on an agenda of my own. . . which relates to the fact that golfers are not inept in their ability to develop relative proficiency in golf, rather, their focus on minutia related to the golf swing (motion) is holding them back.

 

Indeed, modern golf instruction is obsessed with trying to teach the golf swing.

 

Motion cannot be taught. It can only be learned through proper focus, which is not the motion itself.

 

FR

 

[jbw749]

What I see and have been guilty of myself is the lack of understanding mechanics and aesthetics.

 

I think 95% of having a 'pretty swing' is tempo and the finish. But that doesn't mean I want to have that pretty swing when an unusual swing like Bubba Watson's is far superior mechanically.

 

So often times the pretty swing is not mechanically as good as the ugly swing. Many golfers don't understand that because they are uneducated to how the body and swing works.

 

The other issue is that when golfers get on a good track for what to work on mechanically, they are thinking about the mechanics and hope that a swing thought/visual will allow them to repeat those mechanics. The practice methods used to actually ingrain quality mechanics are so poor that they blame the mechanics and the scientific method towards analyzing the golf swing instead of understanding that their practice methods are the exact opposite of what needs to be done to incorporate those mechanics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

Good point Richie. The swing that produces good tempo and a balanced finish is very likely not the one that has perfect looking mechanics (although from p6 through impact it usually does). The swing that produces good tempo and balance is the swing you should golf with and is the swing you'll score better with. The good tempo/balance swing will have the least thoughts.

[jbw749]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

No, the biggest reason is that the average golfer doesn't have the time or patience to ingrain the proper swing mechanics prescribed by an instructor. They either give up or jump instructors. All of us know mid-80s shooters that couldn't ever sniff ever par because their swing is mechanically flawed and they don't hit the ball as well as someone who shoots ever par - or their short game/putting sucks. And these are guys who are not full of mechanical thoughts while actually playing a round.

I think the biggest problem is the instructor isn't teaching the right approach. An entire systematic shift in how golf is taught would have to occur for people to get what I'm talking about.

 

Mindset absolutely changes mechanics. Think under pressure you tense up, clinch butt cheeks pull hook into weeds on 18th hole ruining personal best round. What you were thinking changed your mechanics quite drastically.

 

So when student and instructor first meet. The first thing the instructor should want to know is what's going through this person's mind? It very well could be changing their mechanics on every swing.

 

Example, 2 days ago I'm practicing 2 stalls away at the Ponds at Battle Creek in Maplewood MN. The head pro there meets student for first time, after a quick introduction he has him hit 3 8 irons to see what he has. After that they worked on getting left arm closer to right ear in the backswing the entire lesson. At no point did what was going through the person's mind come up. AND ITS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT ANY CHANGE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHATS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND. And that's what sparked me to start posting again and start this thread.

[BrandonG31]

Isn’t that what the instructor is there to do? Teach the golf swing. They aren’t sports psychologists. When I’m working with my instructor, we work on different parts of my golf swing. Using different “feels” to achieve a better golf swing. Any good teacher will tell the student not to take the thoughts out onto the golf course while playing. You just have to play. Practice is for swing thoughts and work. During a round, you just play. At least that’s what my teacher tells me.

[mukster]

It's "too much attention"

 

There, I've said it, been bothering me all morning.

[theothertwo]

Swing mechanics are important, but they can also be simple. What is being taught is too complicated.

 

Steve

 

I learned playing golf 30 years ago reading Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons and still go back to it from time to time.

[Ghost of Snead]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

JBW

 

Well said.

 

The problem is that most golfers, particularly on WRX, refuse to accept that changing their focus will change their golf swing (motion).

 

Golfers cling to focusing on positions and mechanics of the golf swing (motion) itself in an attempt to modify the motion, giving chase to the depths of the rabbit whole.

 

One member on this forum seems to have a single agenda, which relates to his self-appointed role as defender of modern instruction. . . and to point out that amateur (most) golfers are largely inept in their approach, not golf instruction.

 

To be fair, I suppose I have taken on an agenda of my own. . . which relates to the fact that golfers are not inept in their ability to develop relative proficiency in golf, rather, their focus on minutia related to the golf swing (motion) is holding them back.

 

Indeed, modern golf instruction is obsessed with trying to teach the golf swing.

 

Motion cannot be taught. It can only be learned through proper focus, which is not the motion itself.

 

FR

 

Really ?

 

You've been asked numerous times to give us a definition of "modern instruction", but we have yet to see it. And there are 1000s of golf instructors out there, all teaching in their own way. No one, including myself, is promoting an advanced bio-mechanical analysis of an average amateur's swing. But if an amateur seeks out an instructor who likes to see the trail elbow in a certain position at P6, caveat emptor.

 

There is no way any amateur can play proficient golf without developing a swing that works for them. And in 99% of cases, that means fixing mechanics.

[vanillafunk616]

Yes! The only real constant in good swings is how the club works through impact. For everything else instructors will tell you is "fundamental" there is a great player who will directly contradict it. I personally believe the big break through in golf instruction will be when they figure out how the individual's body frame dictates the ideal way for a person to swing.

[Jim Waldron]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

No, the biggest reason is that the average golfer doesn't have the time or patience to ingrain the proper swing mechanics prescribed by an instructor. They either give up or jump instructors. All of us know mid-80s shooters that couldn't ever sniff ever par because their swing is mechanically flawed and they don't hit the ball as well as someone who shoots ever par - or their short game/putting sucks. And these are guys who are not full of mechanical thoughts while actually playing a round.

I think the biggest problem is the instructor isn't teaching the right approach. An entire systematic shift in how golf is taught would have to occur for people to get what I'm talking about.

 

Mindset absolutely changes mechanics. Think under pressure you tense up, clinch butt cheeks pull hook into weeds on 18th hole ruining personal best round. What you were thinking changed your mechanics quite drastically.

 

So when student and instructor first meet. The first thing the instructor should want to know is what's going through this person's mind? It very well could be changing their mechanics on every swing.

 

Example, 2 days ago I'm practicing 2 stalls away at the Ponds at Battle Creek in Maplewood MN. The head pro there meets student for first time, after a quick introduction he has him hit 3 8 irons to see what he has. After that they worked on getting left arm closer to right ear in the backswing the entire lesson. At no point did what was going through the person's mind come up. AND ITS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT ANY CHANGE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHATS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND. And that's what sparked me to start posting again and start this thread.

 

Yes! Mindset has the THE most powerful influence on what the body does, if anyone doubts this simple fact, just watch someone who has severe intensity yips, Charles Barkley level or even worse. No yip on a non-ball swing, massive body convulsion with the ball.

 

Mechanics do not exist in a vacuum. Your deeply held beliefs about how the club should move, power and how to make the ball go straight are the cause of the body motion.

 

Both the conscious and the non-conscious minds have a tremendous influence on the golf swing and therefore on the ball flight result.

[FatReed]

It's a completely different change in how you go about playing the game. Few people get it, because of how polar opposite it is to what they're used to doing or to how they think golf should be played.

 

Think about it this way: You're dead set in your ways, you've spent years out on the range digging, blood, sweat, tears, thousands of dollars on lessons, read books, maybe even worked as a golf instructor at some point, you've contributed on WRX, spent countless hours arguing your point of view on mechanics or golf swing theory, you've possibly put golf before family in some instances...

Do have any idea how hard it would be to shift the point of view of this person? It would be almost impossible. The harder one tries the more the other person just digs in, because of they're emotional investment and will never concede.

IMO this is the biggest reason people don't improve at golf and scores are stagnant. The shift in approach and mindset is too great for people to overcome or accept.

 

But a few do figure it out...

 

JBW

 

Well said.

 

The problem is that most golfers, particularly on WRX, refuse to accept that changing their focus will change their golf swing (motion).

 

Golfers cling to focusing on positions and mechanics of the golf swing (motion) itself in an attempt to modify the motion, giving chase to the depths of the rabbit whole.

 

One member on this forum seems to have a single agenda, which relates to his self-appointed role as defender of modern instruction. . . and to point out that amateur (most) golfers are largely inept in their approach, not golf instruction.

 

To be fair, I suppose I have taken on an agenda of my own. . . which relates to the fact that golfers are not inept in their ability to develop relative proficiency in golf, rather, their focus on minutia related to the golf swing (motion) is holding them back.

 

Indeed, modern golf instruction is obsessed with trying to teach the golf swing.

 

Motion cannot be taught. It can only be learned through proper focus, which is not the motion itself.

 

FR

 

Really ?

 

You've been asked numerous times to give us a definition of "modern instruction", but we have yet to see it. And there are 1000s of golf instructors out there, all teaching in their own way. No one, including myself, is promoting an advanced bio-mechanical analysis of an average amateur's swing. But if an amateur seeks out an instructor who likes to see the trail elbow in a certain position at P6, caveat emptor.

 

There is no way any amateur can play proficient golf without developing a swing that works for them. And in 99% of cases, that means fixing mechanics.

 

Ghost wrist:

 

“There is no way any amateur can play proficient golf without developing a swing that works for them.”

 

Profound!

 

******

 

“And in 99% of cases, that means fixing mechanics.”

 

‘Fixing swing mechanics’ isn’t best approached through focusing on the golf swing (motion). Wrong focus.

 

FR

 

Isn’t that what the instructor is there to do? Teach the golf swing. They aren’t sports psychologists. When I’m working with my instructor, we work on different parts of my golf swing. Using different “feels” to achieve a better golf swing. Any good teacher will tell the student not to take the thoughts out onto the golf course while playing. You just have to play. Practice is for swing thoughts and work. During a round, you just play. At least that’s what my teacher tells me.

 

Brandon wrote:

 

“Practice is for swing thoughts and work. During a round, you just play.”

 

*****

 

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Practice like you play!,,

 

FR

[harolease]

I'm thinking swing your own swing and don't give a dang what it looks like is a better formula to reach your scoring goals.

Everyone knows the swing I'm talking about right? You know the one you know works for you but hate the way it looks? My argument is to take that swing and tweak some setup adjustments, fine tune it and TRUST it. The piece of mind of doing something you know works for you will result in lower scores.

 

Mechanics change over time as my body changes

More important for me is the rhythm of my lower body. Legs in particular with good timing with my arms swinging with proper posture of my spine and neck