Is Too Much Attention Spent On Swing Mechanics (at the amateur level)

[spoonek9]

Isn't a shoe box a similar external cue like cutting grass?

 

No, cutting grass is a task. The shoebox is an object.

 

Grass is not an object a shoe box is. Cutting the grass is a task and missing the shoe box is not.

 

Yes, but when you are playing golf your task isn't to miss the shoebox. You can still have the task of cutting grass in the direction you want the ball to start tho.

[TB07]

Isn't a shoe box a similar external cue like cutting grass?

 

No, cutting grass is a task. The shoebox is an object.

 

Grass is not an object a shoe box is. Cutting the grass is a task and missing the shoe box is not.

 

Yes, but when you are playing golf your task isn't to miss the shoebox. You can still have the task of cutting grass in the direction you want the ball to start tho.

 

That’s splitting hairs isn’t it?

[Ghost of Snead]

Isn't a shoe box a similar external cue like cutting grass?

 

No, cutting grass is a task. The shoebox is an object.

 

Grass is not an object a shoe box is. Cutting the grass is a task and missing the shoe box is not.

 

Yes, but when you are playing golf your task isn't to miss the shoebox. You can still have the task of cutting grass in the direction you want the ball to start tho.

 

And you can have bad mechanics with a weed whacker as well ...

[spoonek9]

Jesus, is everything Shawn says or does that bad to you people?

 

Body positions are a result of how you perceive the golf swing. Training the mind to see a better golf swing is better, IMO, than just focusing on body parts.

[spoonek9]

Isn't a shoe box a similar external cue like cutting grass?

 

No, cutting grass is a task. The shoebox is an object.

 

Grass is not an object a shoe box is. Cutting the grass is a task and missing the shoe box is not.

 

Yes, but when you are playing golf your task isn't to miss the shoebox. You can still have the task of cutting grass in the direction you want the ball to start tho.

 

That's splitting hairs isn't it?

 

Maybe, but people take practice swings and brush the grass before a shot. They can feel how the club brushes the grass and the sound it makes. If you are thinking about a shoebox while you are on the course you have some issues lol.

[spoonek9]

Isn't a shoe box a similar external cue like cutting grass?

 

No, cutting grass is a task. The shoebox is an object.

 

Grass is not an object a shoe box is. Cutting the grass is a task and missing the shoe box is not.

 

Yes, but when you are playing golf your task isn't to miss the shoebox. You can still have the task of cutting grass in the direction you want the ball to start tho.

 

And you can have bad mechanics with a weed whacker as well ...

 

Now you're just being dumb. That's like saying I can have bad mechanics with a broom or hammer. Christ!!

 

Closed minds around here

[wadesworld]

I would just say you had bad instruction before. That much I agree. You are over the top, here's a shoe box, do reps is not good. Knowing WHY you are over the top through whatever is the cause of it would be better. Hitting the ball has to be done so how can that be the answer? How can people who try and hit the ball not come over the top? What happens when the feel of cutting grass and not trying to the ball doesn't work? You don't have the information to fix yourself if that thought doesn't work anymore.

 

I don't think I had bad instruction at all. All of the pros were popular pros with long lists of students in the places I lived. One was the head pro at Bay Hill. Another was the head pro at Vanderbilt Legends and I think taught Brandt Snedecker. One was a head pro at a golf course on Hilton Head when I was there for a month.

 

Every single one of them diagnosed the flaws in my mechanics correctly. But not a single one of them asked if the ball was my target. Not a single one asked if I was allowing the club to swing or whether I was trying to shove the club back and through. As I said, they focused on the symptom, not the disease.

 

You're correct, one does have to hit the ball, but the ball is not your target. If it is, you WILL come over the top. It's the most efficient way to hit a ball that is your target. You can see it in 75% of the people you see at the range. You can do all the drills you want to correct over-the-top, but if you never have that "Aha" moment where you go "I get it now! He wants me to swing out there and let the ball be in the way, not focus on hitting the white thing at my feet" you'll never fix your over-the-top. As soon as you stop doing the drill you'll go back to having the ball as your target and go back to an over-the-top swing.

 

Some of you were smart enough to never have the ball as your target. Some came upon that realization while doing traditional drills. Others of us never achieved that critical change in thinking until someone told us how to think about the golf swing differently.

 

As for what happens when a particular metaphor stops working, you often will shift to a different metaphor. Nobody said golf becomes magically easy. Even PGA Tour pros lose their mental focus and bad swings result.

[Krt22]

 

 

Now you're just being dumb. That's like saying I can have bad mechanics with a broom or hammer. Christ!!

 

Closed minds around here

No need toss insults when people don't agree with you. Tons of golfers have improved significantly with the traditional approach to golf, pretty close minded to think Clement's way is the only way to improve.

[Krt22]

 

 

Maybe, but people take practice swings and brush the grass before a shot. They can feel how the club brushes the grass and the sound it makes. If you are thinking about a shoebox while you are on the course you have some issues lol.

And 9 times out of 10, their practice swing doesn't look anything like their real swing. I see lots of people take practice swings with their driver and hit the ground. You are never supposed to hit the ground with your driver so I'm not sure what that does

[spoonek9]

Now you're just being dumb. That's like saying I can have bad mechanics with a broom or hammer. Christ!!

 

Closed minds around here

No need toss insults when people don't agree with you. Tons of golfers have improved significantly with the traditional approach to golf, pretty close minded to think Clement's way is the only way to improve.

 

Didn't insult anyone. Called his idea that people don't know how to use a simple tool dumb. I'm sure he was being facetious.

 

Never said Clement's way is the only way. I do think it's a better way tho.

[spoonek9]

Maybe, but people take practice swings and brush the grass before a shot. They can feel how the club brushes the grass and the sound it makes. If you are thinking about a shoebox while you are on the course you have some issues lol.

And 9 times out of 10, their practice swing doesn't look anything like their real swing. I see lots of people take practice swings with their driver and hit the ground. You are never supposed to hit the ground with your driver so I'm not sure what that does

 

Yeah, I think I already stated that most practice swings don't look like the real swing. That's why everyone that post a video of their swing not hitting a ball are told to post a video of them hitting a ball.

 

So you carry 14 drivers??? It was pretty obvious I was talking about irons. Look at Spieth preshot routine.

[Ghost of Snead]

Now you're just being dumb. That's like saying I can have bad mechanics with a broom or hammer. Christ!!

 

Closed minds around here

No need toss insults when people don't agree with you. Tons of golfers have improved significantly with the traditional approach to golf, pretty close minded to think Clement's way is the only way to improve.

 

Didn't insult anyone. Called his idea that people don't know how to use a simple tool dumb. I'm sure he was being facetious.

 

Never said Clement's way is the only way. I do think it's a better way tho.

 

What was your handicap before and after adopting the Clement weed whack method ?

[Krt22]

Maybe, but people take practice swings and brush the grass before a shot. They can feel how the club brushes the grass and the sound it makes. If you are thinking about a shoebox while you are on the course you have some issues lol.

And 9 times out of 10, their practice swing doesn't look anything like their real swing. I see lots of people take practice swings with their driver and hit the ground. You are never supposed to hit the ground with your driver so I'm not sure what that does

 

Yeah, I think I already stated that most practice swings don't look like the real swing. That's why everyone that post a video of their swing not hitting a ball are told to post a video of them hitting a ball.

 

So you carry 14 drivers??? It was pretty obvious I was talking about irons. Look at Spieth preshot routine.

 

I only carry 4 drivers but I don't take a practice swing with any of them

[BogeyBrian]

Now you're just being dumb. That's like saying I can have bad mechanics with a broom or hammer. Christ!!

 

Closed minds around here

No need toss insults when people don't agree with you. Tons of golfers have improved significantly with the traditional approach to golf, pretty close minded to think Clement's way is the only way to improve.

 

Didn't insult anyone. Called his idea that people don't know how to use a simple tool dumb. I'm sure he was being facetious.

 

Never said Clement's way is the only way. I do think it's a better way tho.

 

What was your handicap before and after adopting the Clement weed whack method ?

 

:cheesy:

[wadesworld]

What was your handicap before and after adopting the Clement weed whack method ?

 

What does it have to be?

 

If he says 20 to 15, will you discount him? If he says 12 to 10 will that be more valid? Does the ending value have to be scratch or better?

 

If he plays golf once a month, does that change your criteria?

[Krt22]

Absolutely it matters.

[Ghost of Snead]

What was your handicap before and after adopting the Clement weed whack method ?

 

What does it have to be?

 

If he says 20 to 15, will you discount him? If he says 12 to 10 will that be more valid? Does the ending value have to be scratch or better?

 

If he plays golf once a month, does that change your criteria?

 

Wasn't talking to you but you knew that already.

[Golfbeat]

These golf forums are funny. Imagine that a white belt tells a black belt in a dojo how to execute a high side kick. I have said it before. It would be so much more useful if people would just mention their handicaps. It puts things in perspective. People at different levels need different things. People with a 25 hcp cannot be compared to a scratch player. A 5 hcp cannot even be compared with a scratch player. So the person who needs to brush the grass is usually quite different from a scratch player who wants to hit an inside to inside fade with the driver that goes 300 yards.

[baudi]

Any tour-level instructor will be able to fix a mechanical flaw in your swing - pick one. I'm sure there are also instructors that don't teach tour level pros that can also do the same. None of them come to the lesson tee with a weed whacker.

 

'These things are ruining my business. Students who use them do not need me anymore'.

Comment: Bill Mehlhorn; annotated by H. Penick.

[jut111]

What was your handicap before and after adopting the Clement weed whack method ?

 

What does it have to be?

 

If he says 20 to 15, will you discount him? If he says 12 to 10 will that be more valid? Does the ending value have to be scratch or better?

 

If he plays golf once a month, does that change your criteria?

 

Here’s why it matters to me, can’t speak for others. I have no doubt Shawn’s approach can take a 25 to a 12 No doubt. I do have some doubt he could take a 12 to a 5. Why? Cause using Shawn’s method I went from about an 18 to 14 but couldn’t progress beyond that. Obviously small sample size, but I’ve never seen an example of it either.

 

I’ve seen lots of examples of iteach, Monte etc taking high caps down to scratch and beyond. That’s all. Simple as that.

[Golfbeat]

Any tour-level instructor will be able to fix a mechanical flaw in your swing - pick one. I'm sure there are also instructors that don't teach tour level pros that can also do the same. None of them come to the lesson tee with a weed whacker.

 

'These things are ruining my business. Students who use them do not need me anymore'.

Comment: Bill Mehlhorn; annotated by H. Penick.

 

Most likely sarcasm.

[wadesworld]

Here's why it matters to me, can't speak for others. I have no doubt Shawn's approach can take a 25 to a 12 No doubt. I do have some doubt he could take a 12 to a 5. Why? Cause using Shawn's method I went from about an 18 to 14 but couldn't progress beyond that. Obviously small sample size, but I've never seen an example of it either.

 

I've seen lots of examples of iteach, Monte etc taking high caps down to scratch and beyond. That's all. Simple as that.

 

Did you take regular in-person lessons with Shawn throughout your quest to get to a 12 to a 5? Do you believe people get from a 12 to a 5 by just watching Monty's videos?

 

You have to compare apples to apples.

[jut111]

Here's why it matters to me, can't speak for others. I have no doubt Shawn's approach can take a 25 to a 12 No doubt. I do have some doubt he could take a 12 to a 5. Why? Cause using Shawn's method I went from about an 18 to 14 but couldn't progress beyond that. Obviously small sample size, but I've never seen an example of it either.

 

I've seen lots of examples of iteach, Monte etc taking high caps down to scratch and beyond. That's all. Simple as that.

 

Did you take regular lessons with Shawn throughout your quest to get to a 12 to a 5? Do you believe people get from a 12 to a 5 by just watching Monty's videos?

 

You have to compare apples to apples.

 

That’s fair. And my experience was absolutely not apples to apples.

[Golfbeat]

I think that Monte and Shawn look quite similar actually.

[Krt22]

Here's why it matters to me, can't speak for others. I have no doubt Shawn's approach can take a 25 to a 12 No doubt. I do have some doubt he could take a 12 to a 5. Why? Cause using Shawn's method I went from about an 18 to 14 but couldn't progress beyond that. Obviously small sample size, but I've never seen an example of it either.

 

I've seen lots of examples of iteach, Monte etc taking high caps down to scratch and beyond. That's all. Simple as that.

 

Did you take regular in-person lessons with Shawn throughout your quest to get to a 12 to a 5? Do you believe people get from a 12 to a 5 by just watching Monty's videos?

 

You have to compare apples to apples.

 

Why should regular in person lessons be a requirement if 2-18 months of drills is some how an inherently flawed ideal?

[wadesworld]

I think that Monte and Shawn look quite similar actually.

 

I do too. I've remarked several times how much I like Monty's instruction because of how similar many of his philosophies are to Shawn's. (Of course neither are the sole inventor of any of their philosophies).

[Golfbeat]

I think that Monte and Shawn look quite similar actually.

 

I do too. I've remarked several times how much I like Monty's instruction because of how similar many of his philosophies are to Shawn's. (Of course neither are the sole inventor of any of their philosophies).

 

I was rather referring to their looks. I think though that Monte looks better. (I just noticed that he is following this thread).

[wadesworld]

Why should regular in person lessons be a requirement if 2-18 months of drills is some how an inherently flawed ideal?

 

Because there's no substitute for in-person interaction. You know that. So does every golf coach in the world.

 

To expect to become a high level golfer without ever visiting a coach to identify your areas of improvement is NOT what's being said, despite some people wanting to pretend it is.

 

Secondarily, in order to truly grasp some of the concepts, sometimes you have to look the instructor in the eye, really hear what he's saying, and experience it for yourself. Shawn will tell you himself he can't count the number of times someone will come to him and say, "I'm having trouble with X." Shawn will say, "Yeah, that's covered in my throw the hammer video. Did you try it?" "Student: No, I never actually tried it." Shawn grabs hammer, student throws hammer a few times. "Aha! I see exactly what you were saying in that video now. That's not what I was doing at all." I'm sure plenty of other instructors can relate.

[Golfbeat]

On a more serious note. They are all excellent instructors who all work from the same basic concepts. It just the translation of these concepts into a certain language that will appeal more or less to certain students.

[Krt22]

On a more serious note. They are all excellent instructors who all work from the same basic concepts. It just the translation of these concepts into a certain language that will appeal more or less to certain students.

 

I agree. But cutting the grass, casting the fishing poll, releasing the ping pong paddle, cutting the dandelion stem with a whip, slashing the bamboo stem and releasing my sword wouldnt do much for me on the lesson tee.