Does Tensei blue seem weak to flex?

[Jackal]

I bought a Taylormade m3.

I always prefer a mid-launch, mid-spin shaft.

Matrix Red Tie is one I love.

This one has the Tensei Blue.

Just from the waggle, it seems like a reg flex ( I ordered Stiff, and it is marked stiff).

Do some of you also think that this shaft plays weaker than it's marked?

Is it a made for shaft?

Thanks

[Stuart_G]

Not hit the tensei yet but...

1) waggle is meaningless - how does it feel when you actually hit a ball with it?

2) There is no standard or true basis for judging flex but the Red Ties (black and white tie's as well) were all relatively stiff shafts compared to many other offerings of similar flex and characteristics. So your basis of comparison is really on the stiff side of the bell curve.

[pmang]

Yes the Tensei CK blue in stiff is very soft in comparison to other stiff flex shafts that I’ve found. When I’ve used them I tip them anywhere from a 1/2” to an inch.

[Gehly]

the non-Pro versions that are stock in TM are pretty weak (to appeal to majority of golfers)

the Pro versions with the Boron tips are true to flex and pretty stout in comparison (even in Stiff)

[Jackal]

Thanks everyone.

When I hit it, it felt weak.

I had to back off to let it release.

May try a Hzrdus ( black, or yellow).

A Tensei blue x flex might work.

My swing speed max for driver is 104-106.

[MelloYello]

I have always found that Mitsubishi does a wonderful job of keeping their S and X flex shafts soft in the hands of the player. The Diamana line always felt one flex softer to me. I had no problem playing 83x5ct X-flex in my fairways for instance.

 

I just upgraded from the stock Tensei Blue (S-flex) in my M3 to a CK Pro Orange (60, X-flex) and it's just perfect. I've absolutely picked up a few yards. I immediately started hitting my drives 5-10 yards beyond where I had been. And it feels absolutely wonderful. It's a gem. I'm so glad I spent the money to upgrade!

 

If you prefer a firmer feel you could always tip it slightly, but there's no going back once you do that. Like I said, Mitsubishi just makes a really smooth feeling shaft. They always have in my experience.

[Jackal]

> @MelloYello said:

> I have always found that Mitsubishi does a wonderful job of keeping their S and X flex shafts soft in the hands of the player. The Diamana line always felt one flex softer to me. I had no problem playing 83x5ct X-flex in my fairways for instance.

>

> I just upgraded from the stock Tensei Blue (S-flex) in my M3 to a CK Pro Orange (60, X-flex) and it's just perfect. I've absolutely picked up a few yards. I immediately started hitting my drives 5-10 yards beyond where I had been. And it feels absolutely wonderful. It's a gem. I'm so glad I spent the money to upgrade!

>

> If you prefer a firmer feel you could always tip it slightly, but there's no going back once you do that. Like I said, Mitsubishi just makes a really smooth feeling shaft. They always have in my experience.

 

What is your swing speed?

[MelloYello]

Somewhere around 105, maybe just north of that. I was hitting it about 280-290 in my last tourney.

[Jackal]

> @MelloYello said:

> Somewhere around 105, maybe just north of that. I was hitting it about 280-290 in my last tourney.

 

Thanks.

My low is usually 100, and tops out at 106.

[MelloYello]

> @Jackal66 said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > Somewhere around 105, maybe just north of that. I was hitting it about 280-290 in my last tourney.

>

> Thanks.

> My low is usually 100, and tops out at 106.

 

Yeah, I used to swing about 112 but a shoulder injury forced me back to square one. I got it back up to about 105 but maybe I'm slowly pushing my way up towards 110 again, IDK?

 

In any case, I was worried the 60-TX would be too much for me but it's not. I'm bombing it. The stock Blue (non-Pro version) was over-spinning. I haven't been on a launch monitor but the Orange (Pro) is clearly a flatter, more penetrating flight. Same launch but the ball doesn't balloon. It's enough to see it from the tee box.

 

This is the first time I've actually spent $250 on a shaft upgrade but my goodness is this thing legit. I am so happy with it. I saw improvements on the first few shots. It was clearly a step up. It's only 10-yds at max but man does it feel good!

 

I should note that mine is not tipped at all. I've heard that TaylorMade still prefers to tip their shafts 1". I had always heard that about the "TP" shaft upgrades. I made sure the one I got was not tipped. So it plays relatively soft for an X-flex. I'm sure others that have tipped theirs a bit would describe a firmer feeling/performing shaft.

[t4t3r]

> @Gehly said:

> the non-Pro versions that are stock in TM are pretty weak (to appeal to majority of golfers)

> the Pro versions with the Boron tips are true to flex and pretty stout in comparison (even in Stiff)

 

This. The Pro version is quite stout in my experience.

[Long Shot]

> @Jackal66 said:

> Thanks everyone.

> When I hit it, it felt weak.

> I had to back off to let it release.

> May try a Hzrdus ( black, or yellow).

> A Tensei blue x flex might work.

> My swing speed max for driver is 104-106.

 

I'm in the same SS range 105-108 and found CK Orange to be a good fit flex wise. The X in the regular CK is softer than typical X flexes. I just went for a Ck Blue X for my 3 wood.

[RainShadow]

I didn't find it to feel weak, but the results showed it to be loose/ weak.

 

[Jackal]

I played 9 holes earlier today, after hitting the range.

The shaft is light flexed.

If I slow down a little and make a deliberate effort, it does ok.

You can't jump on it.

Thanks for all the info.

I'll be looking for something stronger.

Some of the local guys are selling their used shafts.?

[Yuck]

Thread back from the dead.  I was playing a Tensei pro Orange S and “won” a driver from the Callaway US Open contest.  I ordered it with a Stock Tensei Blue S.  It was a noodle.  I Swapped it for a Tensei Blue X, and that is working fine.  I would consider it an S and not an X.   Feels a little softer the the Orange Pro S, but Spin and lefts under control.  I do hit it longer than I hit the Pro Orange.  First X shaft I have put in play since my early 50’s.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Yuck

[third-times-a-charm]

21 hours ago, Yuck said:

Thread back from the dead.  I was playing a Tensei pro Orange S and “won” a driver from the Callaway US Open contest.  I ordered it with a Stock Tensei Blue S.  It was a noodle.  I Swapped it for a Tensei Blue X, and that is working fine.  I would consider it an S and not an X.   Feels a little softer the the Orange Pro S, but Spin and lefts under control.  I do hit it longer than I hit the Pro Orange.  First X shaft I have put in play since my early 50’s.

 

The non-Pro models are much softer. The Tensei CK Pro Blue is a fantastic shaft and plays true to flex.

[Pepperturbo]

I have a Tensei Blue "s" shaft in storage, but don't believe it's weak to flex.  The bend profile of non-pro and pro just doesn't fit my swing.

[tagermo]

I have a Tensei CK Orange and a Tensei AV Raw Blue and find they play true to flex. The Blue definately feels better to me. 

[flyingwedges2]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:28 AM, Stuart_G said:

Not hit the tensei yet but...

1) waggle is meaningless - how does it feel when you actually hit a ball with it?

2) There is no standard or true basis for judging flex but the Red Ties (black and white tie's as well) were all relatively stiff shafts compared to many other offerings of similar flex and characteristics. So your basis of comparison is really on the stiff side of the bell curve.

'weak to flex' is dependent upon how you load the shaft relative to its profile

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, flyingwedges2 said:

'weak to flex' is dependent upon how you load the shaft relative to its profile

 

No.  It's 100% dependent on what shaft history you have that you're using as a basing for the relative comparison.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Stuart_G

[flyingwedges2]

7 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

No.  It's 100% dependent on what shaft history you have that you're using as a basing for the relative comparison.

I'll go with the experts, it's how you load the shaft, as the shaft a player has used may be the wrong shaft, the swing was manipulated to work with the shaft, and therefore that shaft  can't be sued for comparison

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, flyingwedges2 said:

I'll go with the experts, it's how you load the shaft, as the shaft a player has used may be the wrong shaft, the swing was manipulated to work with the shaft, and therefore that shaft  can't be sued for comparison

 

What experts?    Anyone who really understands things and is truly an expert knows that there is no one single standard for flex.   And the few standards that are used (such as butt frequency) are not accurate representations of feel.  So they know that there really is no such thing as "true to flex."   It's a phrase (or question) that is only used by those that don't know any better.   The subjective nature of it makes it useless outside the context of the person making the judgement.

 

But even for those people that still cling to the concept, it is always going to be a relative judgement based on feel.   There is just no other useful criteria to make the judgement.  That means that 99.9% of the time anyone makes a judgement of whether a shaft is true to flex or not, it is done based on how it felt to them compared to some other shaft - with the same swing and the same effort to load it. 

 

Yes, your swing and how you load the shaft will effect how it feels.   Two people with two different swings can get very different loading and very different feel from the same shaft.  But here is the important part - no one can make a comparative judgment of feel relative to what anyone else feels.   It's just not possible.  They can only make that judgement relative to their own experiences and their own swing.  So that swing is cancelled out as a variable in the judgement.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Stuart_G

[flyingwedges2]

On 2/14/2022 at 4:28 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

What experts?    Anyone who really understands things and is truly an expert knows that there is no one single standard for flex.   And the few standards that are used (such as butt frequency) are not accurate representations of feel.  So they know that there really is no such thing as "true to flex."   It's a phrase (or question) that is only used by those that don't know any better.   The subjective nature of it makes it useless outside the context of the person making the judgement.

 

But even for those people that still cling to the concept, it is always going to be a relative judgement based on feel.   There is just no other useful criteria to make the judgement.  That means that 99.9% of the time anyone makes a judgement of whether a shaft is true to flex or not, it is done based on how it felt to them compared to some other shaft - with the same swing and the same effort to load it. 

 

Yes, your swing and how you load the shaft will effect how it feels.   Two people with two different swings can get very different loading and very different feel from the same shaft.  But here is the important part - no one can make a comparative judgment of feel relative to what anyone else feels.   It's just not possible.  They can only make that judgement relative to their own experiences and their own swing.  So that swing is cancelled out as a variable in the judgement.

 

experts?  We can start with Wishon, and the club manufactures,, even a guy who I've known for 20 years who started a fitting company ---  it's how one loads the shaft

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, flyingwedges2 said:

experts?  We can start with Wishon, and the club manufactures,, even a guy who I've known for 20 years who started a fitting company ---  it's how one loads the shaft

 

Tom Wishon was a very active member here for a long time and I've read hundreds of his posts and articles and had numerous direct exchanges with him on the subject.   He's the one that first taught me that there is no such thing as "true to flex".

 

He's talked a lot about how the swing influences the loading and determining what shaft might be a good fit.  But that's not even close to the same thing as the fictitious concept of "true to flex".  Tom has never put any value in the flex rating of the shaft.  That's one of the main reasons he developed the shaft profile measurements and fitting software - because of how useless the flex label on a shaft really is.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Stuart_G

[flyingwedges2]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Tom Wishon was a very active member here for a long time and I've read hundreds of his posts and articles and had numerous direct exchanges with him on the subject.   He's the one that first taught me that there is no such thing as "true to flex".

 

He's talked a lot about how the swing influences the loading and determining what shaft might be a good fit.  But that's not even close to the same thing as the fictitious concept of "true to flex".  Tom has never put any value in the flex rating of the shaft.  That's one of the main reasons he developed the shaft profile measurements and fitting software - because of how useless the flex label on a shaft really is.

 

 

Respectfully, you keep parroting what I post and the n muck it up with 'true to flex'.  It's about how one loads the shaft. Stop with the semantics.

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, flyingwedges2 said:

Respectfully, you keep parroting what I post and the n muck it up with 'true to flex'.  It's about how one loads the shaft. Stop with the semantics.

If we have a range of what each flex is then we can define what 'true to flex' or 'soft to flex' means with machine CPM and swing testing - without any 'loading' or 'feel'.

 

From that POV it has nothing to do with 'how you load the shaft' as its all numbers.

 

Now someone can pickup any given shaft and put their swing and their tempo and their mechanics on the shaft and say 'in my opinion...' but that doesnt make anything fact.

Edited February 16, 2022 by third-times-a-charm

[Stuart_G]

 

8 hours ago, flyingwedges2 said:

Respectfully, you keep parroting what I post and the n muck it up with 'true to flex'.  It's about how one loads the shaft. Stop with the semantics.

 

The whole disagreement is on what it means to be "true to flex" or "weak to flex" (same thing).   That's the definition of semantics - what a phrase actually means - so how can I avoid it?  This disagreement is ALL about semantics, nothing else. 

 

And also respectfully, you keep making a simplified statement without any actual substance to support your opinion or beliefs,  much less show that you actually understand what you're talking about.   Nor have you done anything of substance to address my specific points to support my position.

 

You're providing so little in fact, I'm beginning to wonder if we may be talking about two completely different things.  You do understand the "flex" we're talking about is the flex rating or label assigned by the shaft manufacturer?  Not how much the shaft bends when someone swings it.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Billfitz]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

The whole disagreement is on what it means to be "true to flex" or "weak to flex".

+1. There can't be a true to flex, weak to flex or strong to flex as there is no standard that defines what flex is. If there was a standard it wouldn't have anything to do with how one loads the shaft, it would be the amount of force required to bend the shaft tip a given distance from straight line. You'd get a figure in Newton-meters, just like torque has a figure in degrees. Why said standard doesn't exist is inexplicable. 

[Stuart_G]

13 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

Why said standard doesn't exist is inexplicable. 

 

Well there are many different standards based on butt frequency - but since that's not an accurate representation of either the loading or the feel, so pretty useless when it comes to representing the players judgement on stiffness.

 

The other problem is that flex is a 0D value, and shaft stiffness is a really a 1D parameter.   I doubt there is any one good way to make that conversion - so it's really not all that surprising.

[amace04]

Yes.   I can't handle the stock TM tensei shafts.  Between a red tensei that came in my m5 and a blue tensei av in my hybrid,  they just feel super soft

 

For comparison I've got a hzrdus smoke black 80g 6.0 in my 4h, and that one feels great.   

Edited February 16, 2022 by amace04