Does Tensei blue seem weak to flex?

[flyingwedges2]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

The whole disagreement is on what it means to be "true to flex" or "weak to flex" (same thing).   That's the definition of semantics - what a phrase actually means - so how can I avoid it?  This disagreement is ALL about semantics, nothing else. 

 

And also respectfully, you keep making a simplified statement without any actual substance to support your opinion or beliefs,  much less show that you actually understand what you're talking about.   Nor have you done anything of substance to address my specific points to support my position.

 

You're providing so little in fact, I'm beginning to wonder if we may be talking about two completely different things.  You do understand the "flex" we're talking about is the flex rating or label assigned by the shaft manufacturer?  Not how much the shaft bends when someone swings it.

 

You seem to be here to argue, I'm not.  Enjoy

Edited February 16, 2022 by flyingwedges2

[flyingwedges2]

14 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

If we have a range of what each flex is then we can define what 'true to flex' or 'soft to flex' means with machine CPM and swing testing - without any 'loading' or 'feel'.

 

From that POV it has nothing to do with 'how you load the shaft' as its all numbers.

 

Now someone can pickup any given shaft and put their swing and their tempo and their mechanics on the shaft and say 'in my opinion...' but that doesnt make anything fact.

That's not quite correct, either, as multiple shafts with the same butt flex can have different shaft profiles.

[chisag]

On 2/14/2022 at 3:28 AM, Stuart_G said:

Yes, your swing and how you load the shaft will effect how it feels.   Two people with two different swings can get very different loading and very different feel from the same shaft.  But here is the important part - no one can make a comparative judgment of feel relative to what anyone else feels.

 

 

... It isn't how fast your swing speed is, it is how you swing fast. I am in your camp and once you find a shaft that loads and unloads really well for your swing, that is the baseline. Completely irrelevant is "true to flex". I have always done well with a mid bend, mid flight, mid spin and mid torque shaft. The Tensei Raw Blue is firmly in that camp and the shaft I am playing at the moment. For my smooth transition swing, it feels just a little stiffer than most mid profile shafts I have played. So I could easily say it is either true to flex or a little stouter to flex but that would only be true for my swing and my feel. Someone with a more aggressive transition might feel it plays weak to flex based on their swing. And even someone with the same swing speed as mine, with the same basic transition my just find their personal feel is different than mine. 

 

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, flyingwedges2 said:

You seem to be here to argue, I'm not.  Enjoy

 

No.  I'm here to expand peoples knowledge and understanding - including mine.   Particularly with other's of the same interest that are that are open minded and willing to participate in a rational discussion to work out and resolve differences.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Stuart_G

[flyingwedges2]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

 

... It isn't how fast your swing speed is, it is how you swing fast.

 

Correct, it's how one loads the shaft.

 

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, chisag said:

I am in your camp and once you find a shaft that loads and unloads really well for your swing, that is the baseline. Completely irrelevant is "true to flex".

 

Well said.  Exactly - everyone has their own baseline which is meaningless to anyone else.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Stuart_G

[pak]

On 5/31/2019 at 8:56 PM, Jackal66 said:

I played 9 holes earlier today, after hitting the range.

The shaft is light flexed.

If I slow down a little and make a deliberate effort, it does ok.

You can't jump on it.

Thanks for all the info.

I'll be looking for something stronger.

Some of the local guys are selling their used shafts.?

If you like the profile of the Tensei Blue, don't give up on it but rather swap out he TM "made for" Tensei for a "real deal" shaft. I speak from experience. I have a TEE EXS 3 wood in my bag with a Tensei Blue and also had a TM M4 driver that came with the stock Tensei Blue. Both were R flex. The driver, which I ordered after the 3 wood and was trying to replicate the feel of the shaft, was all over the place (I'm not the best driver anyway) and felt really whippy, while the 3 wood feels entirely different and is still in my bag.

 

At one time, I reached out to a MCA rep online and asked about the difference in flex / composition between the TM and Real Deal (TEE) and he didn't know what I was talking about. I probably spend too much time on golfwrx, so could just be in my mind, but there was a big difference. 

 

Good luck.

[Billfitz]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out that OEM versions of shafts are softer. Manufacturer testing isn't done just with pros, but also with recreational golfers, and final decisions on many specs are made based on who the retail versions are actually going to be sold to. That might include softer shafts that are better suited to the recreational golfer that are marked S or X to satisfy their ego driven purchases.

[Stuart_G]

48 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out that OEM versions of shafts are softer. Manufacturer testing isn't done just with pros, but also with recreational golfers, and final decisions on many specs are made based on who the retail versions are actually going to be sold to. That might include softer shafts that are better suited to the recreational golfer that are marked S or X to satisfy their ego driven purchases.

 

I wont say it's not possible - but it wouldn't be at the top of my list for suspects.   Yes, stock shafts are spec'd for average golfers instead of pros but that generally means softer tips for higher launch.  Shaft OEM's typically assign flex ratings based on butt frequency, not tip frequency.  So a soft tip shaft certainly could feel quite a bit softer than one might expect of a flex yet still meet the OEM's specs for the flex it's given.

 

 

[Billfitz]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I wont say it's not possible - but it wouldn't be at the top of my list for suspects.  

 

 

Once again I call on my experience in the ski industry, where the only commonality between what's sold to the public and what's being used by the pros is the paint job. And guess what? Many are the same players. Insiders at TM, Callaway, Titleist et al know if OEM shafts aren't the same as retail shafts but they're neither confirming or denying.

[Stuart_G]

24 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

Once again I call on my experience in the ski industry, where the only commonality between what's sold to the public and what's being used by the pros is the paint job. And guess what? Many are the same players. Insiders at TM, Callaway, Titleist et al know if OEM shafts aren't the same as retail shafts but they're neither confirming or denying.

 

I believe it - that's not the part I was referring to.  It was really only the ego flex ratings I was commenting about.   Not because of any sense of integrity though.  The use of only butt frequency for flex ratings means they really don't have to do that.  You can make a noodle of a shaft and still have it meet the butt frequency specs for the labeled flex.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Pepperturbo]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:13 PM, Stuart_G said:

 

Tom Wishon was a very active member here for a long time and I've read hundreds of his posts and articles and had numerous direct exchanges with him on the subject.   He's the one that first taught me that there is no such thing as "true to flex".

 

He's talked a lot about how the swing influences the loading and determining what shaft might be a good fit.  But that's not even close to the same thing as the fictitious concept of "true to flex".  Tom has never put any value in the flex rating of the shaft.  That's one of the main reasons he developed the shaft profile measurements and fitting software - because of how useless the flex label on a shaft really is.

 

 

I am reading words from different vantage points or at cross purposes. 

 

You're a club builder using Wishon's words to argue your point.  True to flex or weak to flex IMO are real measures for users.  I am a feel golfer that knows the details of my mechanics/swing, pretty good ball striker, and have a lot of experience testing shafts.  As I swing the club and hit a ball, I determine if a shaft is true or weak to flex.  If it says S or S+, it has to be for my swing.  Someone with a swing that isn't as grooved or consistent would be hard-pressed to determine true or weak to flex.

 

I agree with you, flex definition varies from OEM to OEM, no standard.  However, I believe some OEM's are more inline with what R, S & X flex should mean, Fujikura is one, Steelfiber and MMT are two others.  Though it can be vague, true to flex question should NOT be discounted across the board.  Better, if a user is asking that question it shouldn't be posed to someone that designs, builds or fits clubs because their answer isn't likely to satisfy the user's expectation. 

 

Mitsubishi tech staff label their Tensei AV White AM2 Iron S, HIGH BEND shafts as "stout", their word.  Stout because they are high bend yet lightweight shafts.  Like i95cw "S" is stout - true to flex, and the reason most users that play "S" opt for "R" in i95.  Buddies have tried out my 3i and 4i with Tensei AV White AM2 Iron S HIGH BEND shafts.  Mine you, 3i is 92g, 4i is 94g.  Their words afterwards, they feel like rebar.  Those two guys play 80g & 85g "S" graphite in their irons.  A different perspective.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, pak said:

If you like the profile of the Tensei Blue, don't give up on it but rather swap out he TM "made for" Tensei for a "real deal" shaft. I speak from experience. I have a TEE EXS 3 wood in my bag with a Tensei Blue and also had a TM M4 driver that came with the stock Tensei Blue. Both were R flex. The driver, which I ordered after the 3 wood and was trying to replicate the feel of the shaft, was all over the place (I'm not the best driver anyway) and felt really whippy, while the 3 wood feels entirely different and is still in my bag.

 

At one time, I reached out to a MCA rep online and asked about the difference in flex / composition between the TM and Real Deal (TEE) and he didn't know what I was talking about. I probably spend too much time on golfwrx, so could just be in my mind, but there was a big difference. 

 

Good luck.

Both Blue profiles you describe are “real”…..one is the Tensei CK Blue and one is the Tensei CKPro Blue.

 

https://www.mca-golf.com/brands/tensei™

 

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

True to flex or weak to flex IMO are real measures for users. 

 

I never actually disagreed with that.  In fact I've frequently argued the importance of feel when picking a shaft.  The main question was all about how it is defined, not really the importance of it - although I can see how some of the tangents might give the wrong impression.    My position that it completely subjective with no real objective component, particularly in a way that can not be usable or dependable across different players.  It can be VERY important and meaningful to that particular player testing the shaft and making that judgement.  It's just not very meaningful for anyone else.  Everyone has to make their own judgement about that for any particular shaft.

 

But what does it really mean when someone makes a judgement that a shaft isn't true to flex?  It means that the shaft doesn't match that particular players expectations for what the shaft should feel like based on the flex label.  Which leads to the main point of the disagreement, where did those expectations come from?  How were they developed?   

 

For the most part, we aren't doing some impersonal test, looking it up on a chart and saying the flex is right or not (some unsuccessfully try to take that approach with butt frequency - but most do not so that's a different topic).   We're actually swinging the club and making a judgement by feel.   So the only possible answer to the source of those expectations is that it came from some previous experiences by that player with other shafts.   That was the main point I was arguing - the actual source of those expectations, not the importance to the player making them.

 

And yes, it's not uncommon for some players to gravitate to the work of some particular designer or design team - which frequently like to reuse or stay inline with certain design practices or philosophy.   (e.g.  for me it was the Aldila mid-launch shafts - don't' think I ever ran across one I didn't like)  Those designers keep the designs close to what they know have worked in the past so will generally produce similar feels over different generations.    It doesn't mean those shafts are more "true to flex" for the general population.  But it does give a much higher chance for those particular individuals to have their expectation met with those shafts.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Stuart_G