Leaving the pin in?

[sui generis]

> @antip said:

> > @andrue said:

> > > @ScottJN said:

> > > I leave it in by myself but take it out with others. Kind of annoying when some guys want to leave it in, but I figure that will change when they miss a couple short putts due to the pin.

> > I don't think I've come across anyone that actually _wants_ it left in yet. Everyone here seems to be either 'I want it out' or (possibly the majority) 'I don't care either way'.

>

> Different here. Most want it in, most of the time. But most are also indifferent once closer to he hole. I've also played a few rounds where the pin has not been removed at all during the round by anyone.

 

Most here leave it in except when it's breezy and the flag is flapping noisily or if the flagstick's shadow is distracting.

[antip]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @andrue said:

> > > > @ScottJN said:

> > > > I leave it in by myself but take it out with others. Kind of annoying when some guys want to leave it in, but I figure that will change when they miss a couple short putts due to the pin.

> > > I don't think I've come across anyone that actually _wants_ it left in yet. Everyone here seems to be either 'I want it out' or (possibly the majority) 'I don't care either way'.

> >

> > Different here. Most want it in, most of the time. But most are also indifferent once closer to he hole. I've also played a few rounds where the pin has not been removed at all during the round by anyone.

>

> Most here leave it in except when it's breezy and the flag is flapping noisily or if the flagstick's shadow is distracting.

 

Agree, wind and shadows (especially in wind), along with slope and whether the hole is in straight are the key motivators for the "prefer to leave it in" people to lift the pin for specific putts.

[Augustok]

For years have played with a person with very poor eyesight requiring flag tending even for 3 foot putts. Much easier this year. Also I remove balls for some people I regularly play with who have big hands so the cup isn’t touched. I noticed those little ball pickers on the ends of putters seem to work so the cup isn’t damaged the suction cup ones don’t just the small black ones. Most days we never take the flag out at all. Just seems to make things easier.

[Loki]

Okay, people, OP here. Played enough this year to formulate three very good reasons why I don't like the pin in when I putt:

1. It's more difficult to remove the ball from the cup.

2. Edges of cup are rounded, making the cup "larger."

3. Missed putts. Have missed a few that would have gone in with the pin out. Like Ken Venturi said a few years ago, the pin doesn't help a good shot.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Loki said:

> Okay, people, OP here. Played enough this year to formulate three very good reasons why I don't like the pin in when I putt:

> 1. It's more difficult to remove the ball from the cup.

> 2. Edges of cup are rounded, making the cup "larger."

> 3. Missed putts. Have missed a few that would have gone in with the pin out. Like Ken Venturi said a few years ago, the pin doesn't help a good shot.

>

1. Very easy to get the ball out with the proper technique without damaging the hole. Or take the pin out to remove the ball.

2. See above.

3. Haven't seen a single shot rejected that wasn't going so fast that pin in or out would have mattered. Disclaimer: some courses have larger diameter pins so those could be a problem.

Love the time it saves and the flexibility with putting it allows. Done right it saves time. Played as a walking sixsome and we finished 9 in less than 2 hours.

 

[Loki]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Loki said:

> > Okay, people, OP here. Played enough this year to formulate three very good reasons why I don't like the pin in when I putt:

> > 1. It's more difficult to remove the ball from the cup.

> > 2. Edges of cup are rounded, making the cup "larger."

> > 3. Missed putts. Have missed a few that would have gone in with the pin out. Like Ken Venturi said a few years ago, the pin doesn't help a good shot.

> >

> 1. Very easy to get the ball out with the proper technique without damaging the hole. Or take the pin out to remove the ball.

> 2. See above.

> 3. Haven't seen a single shot rejected that wasn't going so fast that pin in or out would have mattered. Disclaimer: some courses have larger diameter pins so those could be a problem.

> Love the time it saves and the flexibility with putting it allows. Done right it saves time. Played as a walking sixsome and we finished 9 in less than 2 hours.

>

 

1. Sure, it is harder to get out though. Okay, so now you have to remove the pin four times to get the ball out of the cup? That's not slower.

2. Doesn't change the fact.

3. Had two birdie putts not fall because of the pin being in. Studies show that you are better off without the pin in. AND now we have to get a caliper to measure pin diameters?

Putting with the pin in doesn't equate to a six some playing 9 in less than 2. You are just 6 fast players.

[antip]

> @Loki said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Loki said:

> > > Okay, people, OP here. Played enough this year to formulate three very good reasons why I don't like the pin in when I putt:

> > > 1. It's more difficult to remove the ball from the cup.

> > > 2. Edges of cup are rounded, making the cup "larger."

> > > 3. Missed putts. Have missed a few that would have gone in with the pin out. Like Ken Venturi said a few years ago, the pin doesn't help a good shot.

> > >

> > 1. Very easy to get the ball out with the proper technique without damaging the hole. Or take the pin out to remove the ball.

> > 2. See above.

> > 3. Haven't seen a single shot rejected that wasn't going so fast that pin in or out would have mattered. Disclaimer: some courses have larger diameter pins so those could be a problem.

> > Love the time it saves and the flexibility with putting it allows. Done right it saves time. Played as a walking sixsome and we finished 9 in less than 2 hours.

> >

>

> 1. Sure, it is harder to get out though. Okay, so now you have to remove the pin four times to get the ball out of the cup? That's not slower.

> 2. Doesn't change the fact.

> 3. Had two birdie putts not fall because of the pin being in. Studies show that you are better off without the pin in. AND now we have to get a caliper to measure pin diameters?

> Putting with the pin in doesn't equate to a six some playing 9 in less than 2. You are just 6 fast players.

 

1. Disagree. Don't need to lift the pin out, just put in the fingers on the opposite side of the cup to where the ball is and it pops up fine. People with very large hands may need a different approach.

2. If folk are not careful to avoid errors, everyone suffers (like Divot-Gate). We had some noticeable damage to hole edge in the earlier days of people being clumsy and doing it not so well, but that is now disappearing fast on my course.

3. Clear time savings in competition times at my club.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Loki said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Loki said:

> > > Okay, people, OP here. Played enough this year to formulate three very good reasons why I don't like the pin in when I putt:

> > > 1. It's more difficult to remove the ball from the cup.

> > > 2. Edges of cup are rounded, making the cup "larger."

> > > 3. Missed putts. Have missed a few that would have gone in with the pin out. Like Ken Venturi said a few years ago, the pin doesn't help a good shot.

> > >

> > 1. Very easy to get the ball out with the proper technique without damaging the hole. Or take the pin out to remove the ball.

> > 2. See above.

> > 3. Haven't seen a single shot rejected that wasn't going so fast that pin in or out would have mattered. Disclaimer: some courses have larger diameter pins so those could be a problem.

> > Love the time it saves and the flexibility with putting it allows. Done right it saves time. Played as a walking sixsome and we finished 9 in less than 2 hours.

> >

>

> 1. Sure, it is harder to get out though. Okay, so now you have to remove the pin four times to get the ball out of the cup? That's not slower.

> 2. Doesn't change the fact.

> 3. Had two birdie putts not fall because of the pin being in. Studies show that you are better off without the pin in. AND now we have to get a caliper to measure pin diameters?

> Putting with the pin in doesn't equate to a six some playing 9 in less than 2. You are just 6 fast players.

 

True we are fast and part of fast is ready golf, even on the green. By not having to manage the pin we save time. Putting when ready even if everyone isn't on the green. We don't mark and pick up balls either (unless at risk of being hit) so we also continous putt. So for league and casual rounds with friends it's definitely a time saver. TBD when I play in a higher level comp, but I'd guess it won't be as big a time saver.

 

@antip has the right ball removal technique that doesn't damage the hole.

 

There are also studies that support you're better off with the pin in.

[chrisf60526]

@Loki **Studies **suggest leaving the pin IN is better

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

[Loki]

Umm, no.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Loki said:

> Umm, no.

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

 

Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

 

and another one that basically says "it depends"--- which I think most of us know.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

 

[Newby]

I have seen about half a dozen 'studies' and my impression is that most seem to have qualifications, particularly for 2-3 footish. but 'in' just edges it,

[Loki]

Pelz's data is 30 years old and may not be relevant even according to him. Molinari's data is it depends also.

My own personal data, based on actual golfed putts, shows that leaving the pin in is a hindrance for me...but you guys can leave the pin in if you want.

[sui generis]

Anecdotes are not data.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Loki said:

> Pelz's data is 30 years old and may not be relevant even according to him. Molinari's data is it depends also.

> My own personal data, based on actual golfed putts, shows that leaving the pin in is a hindrance for me...but you guys can leave the pin in if you want.

 

Pelz shouldn’t use that old study as to say it “proves” the pin should stay in. Ball moving too fast in that study.

[Edward_Majorwin]

I over-cooked a very long uphill putt yesterday that whacked the pin dead center and dropped in for bird. I would easily have been chipping the next shot if someone had pulled the pin as my ball approached the hole.

[North Butte]

I'm just happy that for the first time in the quarter-century I've been playing golf, the USGA made a Rule change entirely 100% to address the needs of those of us who play golf for fun instead of treating every round like a Major production.

 

All their stated reasoning about solo players not being able to see the hole, the time it takes to swap places tending the pin on long putts, etc. isn't about life on the PGA Tour or playing the US Open. It's totally about guys like me out there just playing a round every chance they get and wanting to keep things moving along briskly.

 

I hope it's a new trend in Rule-making.

[SecondandGoal]

> @andrue said:

> > @ScottJN said:

> > I leave it in by myself but take it out with others. Kind of annoying when some guys want to leave it in, but I figure that will change when they miss a couple short putts due to the pin.

> I don't think I've come across anyone that actually _wants_ it left in yet. Everyone here seems to be either 'I want it out' or (possibly the majority) 'I don't care either way'.

My experience has been entirely different. I personally want it in, but once someone takes it out, it doesn't bother me. Just about everyone at my club is the same way. I'd say maybe 30-40% want it out when the putt is less than 10 feet. Haven't seen a single person yet want it pulled for a putt over 20 feet. I've also only seen 2 instances of guys putting it back in, and both were cases of sharp downhill putts that they were worried about it running by the hole and down the hill.

 

This includes league golf, tournament golf, and a lot of casual golf with a lot of different people. I live a mile away from my club, and have a flexible enough work schedule that I pretty much play every day, with 27 or 36 holes on most weekend days.

[davep043]

> @Edward_Majorwin said:

> I over-cooked a very long uphill putt yesterday that whacked the pin dead center and dropped in for bird. I would easily have been chipping the next shot if someone had pulled the pin as my ball approached the hole.

 

But don't you know, absolutely NOBODY ever hits a putt that hard. Just poking fun at a few who do contend that, but I know different. Even the guys on the PGA Tour will occasionally hit one 10 feet past, and those are the ones that the flagstick will definitely help.

To me, the various studies show that at "drop in" speed, the flagstick won't make a difference, at "way past" speed it can only help, and at decent but aggressive speed it might just be dumb luck, a few millimeters one way or the other might mean the difference between make and miss. And not a single one of us is good enough with either speed control or line or green-reading to take dumb luck out of the equation.

[farmer]

To Dave's comment, I play a lot by myself, have played literally thousands of holes with the pin in, and have never had a proper speed putt rejected by the flag stick. If it's really windy, it can happen, but that's not a complex problem to solve. Solid "like" to NB's comment.

[HitEmTrue]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Edward_Majorwin said:

> > I over-cooked a very long uphill putt yesterday that whacked the pin dead center and dropped in for bird. I would easily have been chipping the next shot if someone had pulled the pin as my ball approached the hole.

> To me, the various studies show that at "drop in" speed, the flagstick won't make a difference,

 

Depends on how centered the ball would strike the stick.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

 

< edit >

Oh, leaving it in is fine for me, since my speed control isn't necessarily great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

Kind of like in assessing a medical treatment or a lifestyle change, my bottom line when it comes to leaving the pin in is how does it affect my quality of life (in this case my enjoyment of the game).

 

For my part, if I knew for an absolute fact that leaving the pin in would cost me a stroke once every 5-10 rounds by deflecting the ball out of the hole I would still leave it in. Even a guaranteed decrease of my handicap index by 0.2 strokes isn't remotely worth the trouble of dealing with walking back and forth to the hole, waiting for someone to tend it, etc.

 

But in reality, all this "science" stuff falls in the category of things where some studies show a slight positive effect, some show a slight negative effect so all we know is the effect is "slight" whichever direction it happens to be.

[davep043]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Edward_Majorwin said:

> > > I over-cooked a very long uphill putt yesterday that whacked the pin dead center and dropped in for bird. I would easily have been chipping the next shot if someone had pulled the pin as my ball approached the hole.

> > To me, the various studies show that at "drop in" speed, the flagstick won't make a difference,

>

> Depends on how centered the ball would strike the stick.

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

>

> < edit >

> Oh, leaving it in is fine for me, since my speed control isn't necessarily great.

 

Those studies were done:

> Sofie Aagaard, used a putting device called the Perfect Putter to roll putts at a speed slightly faster than minimum holing speed.

which is a bit faster than what I meant when I said "drop in" speed, perhaps I should have said minimum holing speed. But you're with me, my goal might be to hit the putt 18 inches past the hole, but the reality is that I generally vary from just short to 3 or sometimes 4 feet long, and I think I'm a decent putter.

 

 

[Edward_Majorwin]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Edward_Majorwin said:

> > I over-cooked a very long uphill putt yesterday that whacked the pin dead center and dropped in for bird. I would easily have been chipping the next shot if someone had pulled the pin as my ball approached the hole.

>

> But don't you know, absolutely NOBODY ever hits a putt that hard. Just poking fun at a few who do contend that, but I know different. Even the guys on the PGA Tour will occasionally hit one 10 feet past, and those are the ones that the flagstick will definitely help.

> To me, the various studies show that at "drop in" speed, the flagstick won't make a difference, at "way past" speed it can only help, and at decent but aggressive speed it might just be dumb luck, a few millimeters one way or the other might mean the difference between make and miss. And not a single one of us is good enough with either speed control or line or green-reading to take dumb luck out of the equation.

 

Yep, pure dumb luck all the way...didn't even feel joy like a proper birdie

[HitEmTrue]

> @davep043 said:

>

> Those studies were done:

> > Sofie Aagaard, used a putting device called the Perfect Putter to roll putts at a speed slightly faster than minimum holing speed.

> which is a bit faster than what I meant when I said "drop in" speed, perhaps I should have said minimum holing speed. But you're with me, my goal might be to hit the putt 18 inches past the hole, but the reality is that I generally vary from just short to 3 or sometimes 4 feet long, and I think I'm a decent putter.

>

>

 

Oh, if by drop-in you mean literally enough speed to make it over the edge of the hole, then yes, I agree...the flag would never matter (unless wind blowing, or leaning, or whatever...insert disclaimers here).

 

Pelz talks about ideal holing speed being a certain distance beyond the hole (17 inches?), so that the putt will also have enough speed to hold a better line through green imperfections.

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Yesterday, three playing partners concurred. I had two long birdie putts would have dropped if I had pulled the pin. I tested it but no longer am I leaving the pin in. Whatever the reasoning was behind changing the rule, many of us don't buy it.

[macedan]

All of these putts that "would've dropped in had I pulled the pin" most likely would've also soared into the back rim and kicked up in the air and continued to roll a few feet by (which I have also experienced numerous times) tbh, unless of course the wind was blowing the flagstick into you and/or it is a larger diameter flagstick. Unless you were to approach the exact line with the exact speed using a tool there is no way to determine what would've happened in hindsight.

[Loki]

I disagree. You play golf enough and you know how fast is too fast to go in. Both of my birdie putts that didn't go in, would have gone in without a doubt.

[dave willie]

My observations:

1) the rule has sped up play, but not in a significant way

2) putts hitting the flagstick off-center often lip out unless they are rolling very slowly

3) for someone with average to large hands, you can avoid damage the cup by reaching in with a flat hand and gripping the ball between your middle and ring fingers.

[macedan]

> @Loki said:

> I disagree. You play golf enough and you know how fast is too fast to go in. Both of my birdie putts that didn't go in, would have gone in without a doubt.

 

I guess I would need information about strike on the pin then. I don't play competitions or record towards a GHIN so I have personally been playing pin in for the last three years at minimum 2-3 rounds/week and then rounds with others pin out in addition to my personal rounds. Just as I am no stranger to hitting putts 5-10 feet by the hole I am also no stranger to not hitting the center of the pin or cup. Maybe there are some external variables such as the pin type, pin angle, and stimp reading between our respective courses but from my experiences I have certainly had far more help from the pin than hindrances.

 

Edit: Announcing my bias, I play pin in as I often play solo and also have poor depth perception from a detached retina years ago.