M4 lie angle help .. how upright?

[quine]

So I picked up an m4 driver and having mixed results . Despite an open face, even without lowering loft, it appears it sits very upright compared to my glst and 915 drivers . Is it simply a visual thing with the deeper face of m4 or has anyone else found it to sit and play too upright .? Feel like I’m not releasing the club , hitting some blocks for fear of going left . Any insights or experience would be greatly appreciated !

[LeoLeo99]

M4 came with my rental set on Friday. I thought it was a great driver. Didn't notice any lie angle differences between it and my M1 or G LST drivers. M4 went very straight for me. Had trouble hitting my power fade.

[Tasals]

M4 goes between 56-60, from a standard of 58 degrees on the lie angle, G LST is average lie of 57. Lower the loft of the club and it will make it flatter

[Adam C]

The amount of upright will have a minimal effect on ball flight so it's going to be more in your head than anything else. 2 degrees of lie off on a driver equals maybe a couple yards dispersion depending on ball spin numbers. Not enough to ever really loose it. But, if you don't like the look at set up, that's going to be the bigger issue.

[quine]

Appreciate the feedback , oh yeah, and my head ( I agree) . Must not overthink it . I’ve learned over the years that if i think it might go left it most often will .

[TLT_Dan]

All that being said - an upright lie can and will create some lefts, pulls, draws and possibly a hook.

To me, and upright toe just doesn't sit well to my eye and I do get the misses described above with a club that has these attributes.

[Stuart_G]

> @quine said:

> it appears it sits very upright compared to my glst and 915 drivers .

 

Compare the playing lengths - Stock lengths were shorter for the 915 and probably on the glst (depending on the shaft). Longer lengths will make it appear more upright.

 

> @TLT_Dan said:

> All that being said - an upright lie can and will create some lefts, pulls, draws and possibly a hook.

 

No, it generally wont have that much of an effect. Well, unless the visual of the head being upright messes with the players head. Normally (as @"Adam C" already mentioned) it would only cause about a 2-3 yard lateral miss per degree the club is upright.

 

 

[Cwebb]

The problem is when someone is ideal at about a 56* lie driver, but instead has something at 60*+. Just the visual can affect your posture and setup, leading to issues

[Howard_Jones]

Follow Stuarts advice, take a look at play length, the same club with a longer shaft will be more upright at address, and that visual aspect can fool you to compensate even if you try not to, but its really lie angle at impact that could make a small difference for the tilt on the balls spin axis, so do the ball marker test just like for irons where we make a vertical line in the ball we address against the face at address. That line will now be printed on the club face, and the you get to see if lie angle is upright at impact, but the visual line will be dramatic vs actual lie angle with a ratio of about 1:10 so a lie angle thats off by 1* will print a line that would be measured to about 10 degrees on a 57 mm protractor, so its easy to see if it should have been lower or more flat. The line will point against the toe side if lie is upright at impact, and if lie is neutral that line will be strait up and down on the face.

[Adam C]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> That line will now be printed on the club face, and the you get to see if lie angle is upright at impact, but the visual line will be dramatic vs actual lie angle with a ratio of about 1:10 so a lie angle thats off by 1* will print a line that would be measured to about 10 degrees on a 57 mm protractor,

 

Can you explain this?

 

[Stuart_G]

> @"Adam C" said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > That line will now be printed on the club face, and the you get to see if lie angle is upright at impact, but the visual line will be dramatic vs actual lie angle with a ratio of about 1:10 so a lie angle thats off by 1* will print a line that would be measured to about 10 degrees on a 57 mm protractor,

>

> Can you explain this?

>

 

Here is a much more detailed write up Howard did on the method and how to evaluate the results. It may have the answers to your question.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1355102/open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/p1

[Howard_Jones]

> @"Adam C" said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > That line will now be printed on the club face, and the you get to see if lie angle is upright at impact, but the visual line will be dramatic vs actual lie angle with a ratio of about 1:10 so a lie angle thats off by 1* will print a line that would be measured to about 10 degrees on a 57 mm protractor,

>

> Can you explain this?

>

 

Not really, its about loft (mostly), and my testing when i developed those labels was by using a #6 iron with 31* I did expect that this labels would NOT be good in the longest or the shortest end where loft was way off from 31* but for some reason they dont move like expected, but i never done excessive testing with drivers or wedges for that matter to really be able to explain the ratio.

 

What i did, was asking for volunteers to come to my studio so i had a player i could use, and then we started by fitting of the lie angle so it was good, and made sure impact was good (the club as a whole was a good fit).

Then we simply bended it to "wrong" angles and tried again to see how this lines moved, thats how i found the pattern who goes from low heel to high toe.

 

When i started to study for trends, i saw something strange, the system we know from lie boards where we measure distance from the center of the sole out to the center for the contact point, was actually reversed when we used the ball marker pen and face labels, plus became minus, and up became down, but the distance from the center is the same.

 

So when i "framed it" in a 1" x 1" measure box on the face, we really measure from one end of that line (heel side) to the other end (toe side ) to get the distance out from the center like this:

 

This illustrate the need for 1* more upright, and what we will see is the RED line, but what we actually measure is THE BOTTOM WIDE of the triangle, just like we did with the lie board method...kind of a aha moment, could it really be that simple? yes it was, at least for a 31* lofted club, and for that one the ratio is 10:1 if we use a 57 mm or 1 1/8" diameter protractor, but whats the exact factor for other lofts...i never got that far, so i really dont know, and im not able to explain why the ratio was 10:1 on this one either, but in the end, we just want that line as strait up and down as possible and in the middle of the face, so for a driver we cant bend, but still can adjust hosel settings on, we would just have to try the settings we got, and choose the one who give the most neutral lie angle at impact

 

 

 

one idea i got after i saw how simple we could do this was to make a "transparent plastic card" with this 3 triangles on, they both have the wide in the bottom we actually measure, and the angle that line will print on the face, so we dont need those face labels, we could have used a plastic card we placed on the face like it was a protractor, but this one only have 3 triangles for up and 3 others for flat so even the most stupid of us would find it easy to judge lie angles with it.

 

 

 

So, this system for IRONS is actually the same as we know from lie boards, we have just reversed the values and replaced them from the sole to the face.