2 Rules That Need To Be Enforced On Tour

[Guest]

I don't care what club players use on the green. Seems a stupid rule to me.

 

Slow play - I think the problem is the disrespect to the person they are playing with. Being behind a slow player is frustrating. But playing with a slow player is HORRIBLE because you feel like you always need to cover for their slowness. At the British, if JB wasn't paired with one of the fastest players on tour he could have been 3-4 holes behind. JB and players like him don't understand this. They think the other player should just do what he is and stare at the upcoming shot for a minute, take as long as needed, and if they are a couple holes behind so what. They don't get these other players are covering for them. Players speak up all the time about slow play. But the PGA Tour does nothing about it. Heck, Sabatini was chided for taking action about it. I think the shot clock is the only thing that is going to work in the long run. From the first tee shot, you get 45 second to play every shot. Don't see it ever happening though.

 

There is another strategy in tournaments that I learned from another player. I was in a US Mid Am qualifier where me and another player were paired with a brutally slow golfer. We got over a hole behind right out of the gate. On #2 the fast guy asked the rules official to put us on the clock. He said we weren't out of position yet. Fast player then intentionally takes forever to play #2. He took about a minute for a 6 inch tap in just to make sure we'd get way behind. So we are on 3 tee and group ahead can be seen on 5 green. USGA puts us on the clock. I forget what the pace of play rule was for that tournament, but we only got off the clock briefly the rest of the day. We were timed seemingly on every shot. The slow player had no choice but to player quicker since they had the stopwatch on him. Maybe that's what Koepka should have done. Intentionally get them 2 holes behind so JB was on the clock all day.

[LICC]

> @"Ignatius Reilly" said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

> > > >

> > > > It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

> > >

> > > Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

> >

> > Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?

> > That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

> >

> > PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

>

> Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

>

> Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.

>

> Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

 

Sure doesn't look like Langer is leaving a gap. He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest. It's a shame the USGA looks the other way on this.

[Naptime]

If they did their shot planning more or less concurrently it would not be 200 shots x time. It’d be more like 70 shots plus a fraction.

 

The nice thing about TV is they can show something else while the slow poke is overthinking his shot.

[15th Club]

> @AndersUK said:

> The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

>

 

 

Oooh I love this idea.

[Vindog]

> @AndersUK said:

> The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

>

 

But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

[Shilgy]

> @Vindog said:

> > @AndersUK said:

> > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> >

>

> But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

 

Like maybe a belly putter?

[KRAMER1997]

I think there should be a "Par Time" for each tournament, based on how many players there are in the field and how many group are teeing off. Each time a group finishes more than 10 minutes passed the "Par Time", they should be fined something like $10,000 per 10 minutes. If a player has 3 offenses, they should be suspended for a month and all fines and suspensions should be made public. I know this solution isn't perfect, but I think if we start disclosing infractions, players might speed up and Bruce wouldn't be pissed off all the time.

[AndersUK]

> @Vindog said:

> > @AndersUK said:

> > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> >

>

> But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

 

I agree, but with Langer type anchoring there would be very little control so no player would do it. For belly putters prohibiting anchoring of the hand or club anywhere against the body could still be included in the rule.

[Vindog]

> @AndersUK said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @AndersUK said:

> > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > >

> >

> > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

>

> I agree, but with Langer type anchoring there would be very little control so no player would do it. For belly putters prohibiting anchoring of the hand or club anywhere against the body could still be included in the rule.

 

But, then you would be prohibiting otherwise allowable strokes that aren't anchoring, and creating a possible inequitable situation favoring belly putters.

 

I mean there's no great solution of course, but I'm generally not a fan of prohibiting X when really you're going after Y. They could just ban the long putter, but it seems they don't have an issue with the use of a long putter, just the anchoring of it.

 

[gvogel]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @AndersUK said:

> > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > >

> >

> > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

>

> Like maybe a belly putter?

 

Nothing wrong with belly putting. It's still a golf stroke, with hands together.

[gvogel]

> @"15th Club" said:

> > @AndersUK said:

> > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> >

>

>

> Oooh I love this idea.

 

That was exactly what Harvey Pennick said many years ago.

[Shilgy]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > > @AndersUK said:

> > > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

> >

> > Like maybe a belly putter?

>

> Nothing wrong with belly putting. It's still a golf stroke, with hands together.

 

So you do not have a problem with anchoring-just players having their hands apart?

[MaineMariner]

I think it's clear by now that people opposed to the long putters just don't like the aesthetics of it.

[2putttom]

> @MaineMariner said:

> I think it's clear by now that people opposed to the long putters just don't like the aesthetics of it.

 

that's a given

[gvogel]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > @AndersUK said:

> > > > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

> > >

> > > Like maybe a belly putter?

> >

> > Nothing wrong with belly putting. It's still a golf stroke, with hands together.

>

> So you do not have a problem with anchoring-just players having their hands apart?

 

I have a problem with a golf stroke where one hand steadies the top of the shaft while the other hand makes a stroke. That's more like croquet.

 

Plus, I think that these long putters are longer than the legal length of a driver, which is 48". They never should have been allowed in the first place.

[Vindog]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > @AndersUK said:

> > > > > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > > > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

> > > >

> > > > Like maybe a belly putter?

> > >

> > > Nothing wrong with belly putting. It's still a golf stroke, with hands together.

> >

> > So you do not have a problem with anchoring-just players having their hands apart?

>

> I have a problem with a golf stroke where one hand steadies the top of the shaft while the other hand makes a stroke. That's more like croquet.

>

> Plus, I think that these long putters are longer than the legal length of a driver, which is 48". They never should have been allowed in the first place.

 

I agree that putters should fall within the mix/max guidelines of the other clubs.

 

[Shilgy]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > @AndersUK said:

> > > > > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > > > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

> > > >

> > > > Like maybe a belly putter?

> > >

> > > Nothing wrong with belly putting. It's still a golf stroke, with hands together.

> >

> > So you do not have a problem with anchoring-just players having their hands apart?

>

> I have a problem with a golf stroke where one hand steadies the top of the shaft while the other hand makes a stroke. That's more like croquet.

>

> Plus, I think that these long putters are longer than the legal length of a driver, which is 48". They never should have been allowed in the first place.

 

> @gvogel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > @AndersUK said:

> > > > > > The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.

> > > > > > This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But you can still anchor, or appear to anchor, with your hands together.

> > > >

> > > > Like maybe a belly putter?

> > >

> > > Nothing wrong with belly putting. It's still a golf stroke, with hands together.

> >

> > So you do not have a problem with anchoring-just players having their hands apart?

>

> I have a problem with a golf stroke where one hand steadies the top of the shaft while the other hand makes a stroke. That's more like croquet.

>

> Plus, I think that these long putters are longer than the legal length of a driver, which is 48". They never should have been allowed in the first place.

 

The last WITB I can find for Langer is that the putter shaft is 45".

[dalehead]

> @gvogel said:

> > @MaineMariner said:

> > Ban the claw/pencil grip. I don't like how it looks and it takes the twitchy trail hand muscles out of the stroke.

> >

> > Ban 460 cc driver heads. They look ridiculous and are way too easy to hit.

> >

> > Ban lob wedges. They make flop shots too easy.

> >

> > See how dumb this sounds?

>

> You're off point. If I use a claw/pencil grip, both of my hands are involved with making the stroke. Same as left hand low, or pointer finger down the shaft - any number of grips. Both hands are working together.

>

> Ban 460 cc driver heads? I'm all for that. Bifurcate the rules. See who wants to play the more difficult drivers that the pros will have to play. You're on your own there. It will take more talent to play consistently, which is what we expect from elite golfers.

>

> Ban lob wedges? Who cares. It's one of 14 clubs, and few have the talent to use them.

>

> I say ban the long putter in some way, because it isn't a golf stroke. Maybe they will find their way to putt-putt.

 

No, he’s not off point. At the time the ban on the long putter was being considered the discussion was not that it gave an advantage or was cheating. Even the USGA people admitted they were against it because of the way it looked. It was non traditional. Well if you want traditional require persimmon woods, blade irons, balata balls. Oh, and no club with a loft greater than 56 degrees. Not only would that uphold tradition it would make 7000 yard courses championship caliber again. A 420 yard par 4 would be a drive and an eight iron. Not a driver and lob wedge.

And while we’re at it no hybrids. That’s cheating. If you can’t hit a green from 200 yards with a muscle back 2 iron and a balata ball, tough luck. Get better.

[AndersUK]

"But, then you would be prohibiting otherwise allowable strokes that aren't anchoring"

 

That is the whole point. I do not like long putter anchoring, belly putter anchoring or holding an arm with the other hand.

 

"and creating a possible inequitable situation favoring belly putters."

 

How would this favour belly putters? I am proposing both hands touching at point of contact with the ball and no hand or part of the club can be anchored against the body during the entire stroke.

 

"I mean there's no great solution of course, but I'm generally not a fan of prohibiting X when really you're going after Y"

 

Again, that is the point - I am against X and Y. With suggested rule change it permits a stroke that cannot be anchored in any way but still allows the endless number of grip types and putting strokes.

 

[Barfolomew]

My putter is far from the shortest club at 41"..... but I put traditional like Rickie standing up tall hands in close to body. So that rule wont work... in fact Im thinking of taking it to 42"

[Ferguson]

Recent reviews of this thread:

 

Alex “Grimace” MacDonald from the St. Louis Times offered forth:

There’s a fine line between tacky and spectacular. In creating posts for a forums………….posts often tell the story emerging triumphant from a chrysalis keeping properly on the right side of the line by making sure the level of craft supports the extravagance of the gesture. Sadly, that’s not the case with the “2 Rules that need to be enforced” thread which served as a maddening mishmash of a new and old ideas dug up from previous threads. Except for the nine of eye-popping posts from WRX veterans, the thread recreates for the occasion, it’s all gesture, no craft, dramatically threadbare and surprisingly forgettable. That’s too bad because, reading between the paillettes, you get the feeling that the OP is a good egg: self-mocking, plain speaking and a hoot. Whether that’s enough to build a good thread is another question one “2 Rules that need to be enforced” striving to be agreeable, never gets close to answering.

 

 

Matt Ankleache from the Chicago Tribune had this to say:

I was overcome with a bountiful harvest of emotions after reading “2 Rules that need to be enforced.” And this thread, rivaled only by the guy who claimed Bubba Watson’s spouse was a tad too sturdy for primetime golf TV, showed off the OP’s sensationalized opening featured posturing on a level only seen at the highest level of camel staging. Reactions from the WRX forum to the OP’s foot-down time to putt comments were mixed as members aired their concerns, offering in response their own outrageous claims. Like a 5-course meal funded by a groupon, it was tomfoolery fun from start to finish.

 

 

Jack Thorpe of the London Times touts:

Richly elaborated by OP, this thread screams a like a million bucks (or, nothing); for the briefest of moments, the forum was transfigured from top to bottom to immerse us in the narrative of “2 Rules that need to be enforced”. It works: The experience is transporting.

 

[gvogel]

> @Ferguson said:

> Recent reviews of this thread:

>

> Alex “Grimace” MacDonald from the St. Louis Times offered forth:

> There’s a fine line between tacky and spectacular. In creating posts for a forums………….posts often tell the story emerging triumphant from a chrysalis keeping properly on the right side of the line by making sure the level of craft supports the extravagance of the gesture. Sadly, that’s not the case with the “2 Rules that need to be enforced” thread which served as a maddening mishmash of a new and old ideas dug up from previous threads. Except for the nine of eye-popping posts from WRX veterans, the thread recreates for the occasion, it’s all gesture, no craft, dramatically threadbare and surprisingly forgettable. That’s too bad because, reading between the paillettes, you get the feeling that the OP is a good egg: self-mocking, plain speaking and a hoot. Whether that’s enough to build a good thread is another question one “2 Rules that need to be enforced” striving to be agreeable, never gets close to answering.

>

>

> Matt Ankleache from the Chicago Tribune had this to say:

> I was overcome with a bountiful harvest of emotions after reading “2 Rules that need to be enforced.” And this thread, rivaled only by the guy who claimed Bubba Watson’s spouse was a tad too sturdy for primetime golf TV, showed off the OP’s sensationalized opening featured posturing on a level only seen at the highest level of camel staging. Reactions from the WRX forum to the OP’s foot-down time to putt comments were mixed as members aired their concerns, offering in response their own outrageous claims. Like a 5-course meal funded by a groupon, it was tomfoolery fun from start to finish.

>

>

> Jack Thorpe of the London Times touts:

> Richly elaborated by OP, this thread screams a like a million bucks (or, nothing); for the briefest of moments, the forum was transfigured from top to bottom to immerse us in the narrative of “2 Rules that need to be enforced”. It works: The experience is transporting.

>

 

And there it is. Lock it up.

[spk7]

The most infuriating part about slow play not being enforced is that the players who play at a faster pace are punished but the slow players aren’t

[mwkbmw]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ignatius Reilly" said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

> > > > >

> > > > > It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

> > > >

> > > > Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

> > >

> > > Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?

> > > That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

> > >

> > > PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

> >

> > Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

> >

> > Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.

> >

> > Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

>

> Sure doesn't look like Langer is leaving a gap. He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest. It's a shame the USGA looks the other way on this.

 

Please post said video, or at least a link.

[Brandons68]

I fully agree that this is an issue that needs to be worked on. Slow play is plaguing the board all the way across. College kids look up to tour players and try to mimic their meticulousness and speed. I play and pretty much all college golf routines are at the 6 hour mark for no reason.

[LICC]

> @mwkbmw said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Ignatius Reilly" said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > @"15th Club" said:

> > > > > > > I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

> > > >

> > > > Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?

> > > > That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

> > > >

> > > > PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

> > >

> > > Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

> > >

> > > Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.

> > >

> > > Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

> >

> > Sure doesn't look like Langer is leaving a gap. He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest. It's a shame the USGA looks the other way on this.

>

> Please post said video, or at least a link.

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Brandons68 said:

> I fully agree that this is an issue that needs to be worked on. Slow play is plaguing the board all the way across. College kids look up to tour players and try to mimic their meticulousness and speed. I play and pretty much all college golf routines are at the 6 hour mark for no reason.

 

Interesting. That has not been my experience when playing with the college kids. Just played a state stroke play event in June where we played threesomes and all 3 days we played right around time par of 4:15. Greens were kept at a sane pace of around 11 which probably helped. Everyone used carts as well which certainly helped.

[Soloman1]

> > @LICC said:

> ... He has an instructional video where he says he puts his thumb to his chest.

 

 

He did not say that. Stop lying.

 

 

[LICC]

"I'm not putting the shaft in my belly or on my chest [as he demonstrates by pressing the top of the putter shaft on his belly and then on his chest], I actually have the thumb between the chest and the putter [as he presses his thumb onto his chest]..."

 

That is exactly what he said. @Soloman1 Stop lying to yourself.

[Soloman1]

He did not say he put his thumb to his chest. There is no rule against touching your clothing.

 

Just stop it, for chrissake.