Are we entering Into the age of parity on the PGA Tour?

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > >

> > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > >

> > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > >

> > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> >

> > Webb Simpson won the Players last year. 145th in driving distance. Last in the field in driving distance the year he won. Furyk finished 2nd at the Players this year.

>

> That tournie used to be the salvation for short knockers. Not anymore when the best driver on the planet won it this year. And a real major like pavin last in DD when winning the open? Lol laughable in this day and age

 

So the whole dynamic of the Players Championship changed in one year? Sure ...

[lowheel]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > >

> > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > >

> > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> >

> > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> >

> > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

>

> Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

 

you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

[Oz Max]

Players nowadays have access to better knowledge about how to optimize their game (Trackman, stroke gains stats etc) and their physical fitness. I think that makes the game more competitive than ever. Look at the guys fresh out of college golf making to the PGA and winning straight away, hard to argue that the level hasn't risen dramatically. And who knows what the future will be? there are probably some freak talents out there about to start college in the US on enter the Challenge Tour in Europe.

[LICC]

> @"Oz Max" said:

> Players nowadays have access to better knowledge about how to optimize their game (Trackman, stroke gains stats etc) and their physical fitness. I think that makes the game more competitive than ever. Look at the guys fresh out of college golf making to the PGA and winning straight away, hard to argue that the level hasn't risen dramatically. And who knows what the future will be? there are probably some freak talents out there about to start college in the US on enter the Challenge Tour in Europe.

 

The level of performance has risen overall due to modern equipment. Not from higher talent levels of the players. It’s hard to argue otherwise.

[JD3]

> @lowheel said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > >

> > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > >

> > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > >

> > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> >

> > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

>

> you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

 

Not a bunter in the bunch of top winners. Only surprise winner was woodland who's only exceptional attribute is power. Molinari only had a breakthru after getting longer.

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > >

> > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > >

> > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > >

> > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> >

> > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

>

> Not a bunter in the bunch of top winners. Only surprise winner was woodland who's only exceptional attribute is power. Molinari only had a breakthru after getting longer.

 

You’re sinking fast with this argument. The facts are against you. Probably should move on.

[d1bound]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @pinhigh27 said:

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> > > > > @"b.helts" said:

> > > > > Hey > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have made this argument before and even wrote an article for this site about 7-8 years ago on the subject.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think progressing towards parity is inevitable in a sport like golf , especially the more it becomes capitalized due to higher wages combined with the fact that you cannot play defense on your opponent. I definitely believe there is wayyyy more talent on the PGA tour than ever before (ease of europeans and asians to play on it, ease of travel, higher wages leading to more people pursuing it etc....). So you combine all these things with a sport where you can't physically stop your opponent from doing something....you get more parity. Brooks Koepka can't go out and guarantee that some guy ranked 43rd won't have a career day and shoot 62 on Sunday. It's not like Tennis where Roger Federer can return your shots. Golf is like a souped up version of an NBA 3-pt contest, except if there were 125 participants. Steph Curry is the best shooter in the world but he wouldn't win every time.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There will always be guys who come along and differentiate themselves. But i think it will become rarer, and the norm will be more what we see now, guys getting hot for short stretches.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another comparable "sport" would probably be Poker. Pre-Rounders, you saw the same names a lot. But once online poker started, once poker became cool, you had guys no one had ever heard of winning the world series every year. The best guys were just the guys who won a bit and finished 15th most years. It's similar in that you can do everything right and just lose because your opponent caught a crazy hand that day

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing in what you said that wouldn’t be the same 20, 30, and 40 years ago. Human beings don’t evolve that quickly. The top 50-70 players in the world at any given time period once a sport reaches maturity are extraordinarily skilled.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I definitely believe the top 50-70 players in the world are more skilled now than they were 40yrs ago owing to capitalization. 40yrs ago there wasn't the same incentive to become a pro athlete (pay is 30x+ higher which way outpaces inflation) and less countries had the ability to be represented (how many asian players on tour 40yrs ago?).

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The top 50-70 players in the world are obviously always going to be super talented, but even among the very talented , there is talent gaps. And the higher a sport gets capitalized those gaps close IMO

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What gaps? There is nothing to support the notion that the top 70 players today are more skilled than the top 70 players in 1979

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure there is, larger talent pool to choose from due to higher pay for the same job , and better access to global candidates. Economists argue this all the time

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > If we started paying Squash players the same as NBA players, 30yrs from now itd be hard to argue squash players aren't better in 2050 than they were in 2020. Athletes in the US dont try to become pro squash players now because the pay sucks compared to other pro sports. This isn't to say the top squash players in the world suck, they'd just be better in 2050

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Name three players today that are playing the PGA Tour that otherwise wouldn’t be if the pay was relatively the same as 1979

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The guy who finished 5th on tour in 1980 made 239k. Adjusted for inflation I believe that's roughly 650k in today's dollars. If you had to be 5th in the world to make 650k in today's pro sports climate...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The 5000th best business person in the US makes more than that

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It’s more like $850k in today’s dollars. Which Tour pro has the alternative to make $850k if he never pursued golf? Name three.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You are framing arguments ridiculously. If you want to have a serious debate I'm happy to, but it doesn't seem so. Have a great day. In fact I'll even name 3 great days I want you to have: today, tomorrow, and Wednesday

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > He does it in like every thread don't worry.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Idk what's hard to believe about sports getting more competitive over time as incentive to do well increases, we learn more about the sport, how to coach and teach it and global travel is easier than ever.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > People have this weird homerism where they can't accept their guy wasn't the greatest.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He theorizes squash players making tens of millions a year and my framing is ridiculous? My question is at the core of his theory. You don’t have an argument that today there is greater incentive such to materially change the skill levels from the top players of 40 years ago. That is a weird recency bias

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, he said the 5th ranked player made $650K or $850K in adjusted dollars. So $850K is now about 150th on tour, if I remember right. So it’s clear that the earning potential for professional golf has risen significantly! That is a strong argument for more and better candidates seeking that kind of earning power. Meaning more players of a higher caliber.

> > > >

> > > > $850k would be 130th now. But so what? You’re making a leap that some PGA Tour players would not be playing golf if the money were at the 1980 adjusted levels. So who are these players? What would they be doing instead? Upon what are you basing that assumption?

> > >

> > > ? Is this argument really beyond you? So you're saying the 130th ranked guy now makes as much as the 5th guy from 30 years ago, but you fail to see how there isn't significantly more incentive to get into the game? What does the 5th ranked pga tour player make now? It's probably like 20 million/yr with endorsements.

> > >

> > > Prize money is just one piece of the pie. The endorsements and ability to market yourself is obviously way higher now.

> > >

> > > It's not recency bias, it's logic. You don't make any points of your own, you just say " no that's not true."

> > >

> > > Again, say it with me. Any sport where the incentive to succeed continues to increase, will continue to evolve. Compare the athleticism of basketball players now to 40 years ago. It's barely the same game.

> >

> > In basketball the style has changed, not the skill level, because the rules and officiating changed. Larry Bird in his prime today would be lighting it up.

>

> Are you really arguing that the NBA was as good in the 50s as it is now? That the players are not better? (Yeah, I know LB did not play in the 50s but same principles and variables apply)

>

> Just think for a second of why the caliber of play is multiples better now.

>

> Larger talent pools and more incentive.

>

> You don’t think the same variables apply to golf over the past 60 years?

>

>

 

Look as far as basketball goes, just go watch a high school warm up routine and tell me the skill level hasn't increased.

 

And @MtlJeff , as far as skill goes, I've learned it's impossible to argue about "talent" on this website because people find it so subjective. For instance, some argue that hitting it far and straight is not a skill at all nowadays. I mean look at all the guys that hit it far and how good they are doing. Cam Champ, Trey Mullinax, and others are doing so well because it is so easy to hit it straight. In fact even I could hit it that far and straight if it weren't for my back issues that cause me to hit a 240 yard push fade.

 

I guess my main point would be is that some things aren't even worth trying to prove because it would take too much time and I just want to play golf.

 

Edit: I apparently can't write coherent sentences

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > >

> > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > >

> > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > >

> > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > >

> > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> >

> > Not a bunter in the bunch of top winners. Only surprise winner was woodland who's only exceptional attribute is power. Molinari only had a breakthru after getting longer.

>

> You’re sinking fast with this argument. The facts are against you. Probably should move on.

 

When presented with facts you respond with unsupported slights. Well heres some more stuff that will be hard for you to digest, top 3 ranked players Rory, Brooks, DJ...all monstrously long.

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > >

> > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > >

> > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > >

> > > Not a bunter in the bunch of top winners. Only surprise winner was woodland who's only exceptional attribute is power. Molinari only had a breakthru after getting longer.

> >

> > You’re sinking fast with this argument. The facts are against you. Probably should move on.

>

> When presented with facts you respond with unsupported slights. Well heres some more stuff that will be hard for you to digest, top 3 ranked players Rory, Brooks, DJ...all monstrously long.

 

Just giving you advice to help you from losing credibility.

[smashdn]

I suppose you can call it parity. More players figured out how to hit it 320 consistently.

[LICC]

> @lowheel said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > >

> > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > >

> > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > >

> > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> >

> > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

>

> you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

 

In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

[Oz Max]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Oz Max" said:

> > Players nowadays have access to better knowledge about how to optimize their game (Trackman, stroke gains stats etc) and their physical fitness. I think that makes the game more competitive than ever. Look at the guys fresh out of college golf making to the PGA and winning straight away, hard to argue that the level hasn't risen dramatically. And who knows what the future will be? there are probably some freak talents out there about to start college in the US on enter the Challenge Tour in Europe.

>

> The level of performance has risen overall due to modern equipment. Not from higher talent levels of the players. It’s hard to argue otherwise.

 

You can't refute that the overall athleticism has increased, guys are now all built like line backers

[LICC]

> @"Oz Max" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Oz Max" said:

> > > Players nowadays have access to better knowledge about how to optimize their game (Trackman, stroke gains stats etc) and their physical fitness. I think that makes the game more competitive than ever. Look at the guys fresh out of college golf making to the PGA and winning straight away, hard to argue that the level hasn't risen dramatically. And who knows what the future will be? there are probably some freak talents out there about to start college in the US on enter the Challenge Tour in Europe.

> >

> > The level of performance has risen overall due to modern equipment. Not from higher talent levels of the players. It’s hard to argue otherwise.

>

> You can't refute that the overall athleticism has increased, guys are now all built like line backers

 

There isn't one prominent player on Tour now built like a linebacker. Maybe you can compare Koepka to a cornerback. That's about it. I don't see any evidence of increased overall athleticism. Maybe there is a slightly larger group of players paying more attention to fitness. Maybe. It's not like there weren't players back years ago who stayed fit. And it's not like there aren't out-of-shape players today.

[Titleist99]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Oz Max" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Oz Max" said:

> > > > Players nowadays have access to better knowledge about how to optimize their game (Trackman, stroke gains stats etc) and their physical fitness. I think that makes the game more competitive than ever. Look at the guys fresh out of college golf making to the PGA and winning straight away, hard to argue that the level hasn't risen dramatically. And who knows what the future will be? there are probably some freak talents out there about to start college in the US on enter the Challenge Tour in Europe.

> > >

> > > The level of performance has risen overall due to modern equipment. Not from higher talent levels of the players. It’s hard to argue otherwise.

> >

> > You can't refute that the overall athleticism has increased, guys are now all built like line backers

>

> There isn't one prominent player on Tour now built like a linebacker. Maybe you can compare Koepka to a cornerback. That's about it. I don't see any evidence of increased overall athleticism. Maybe there is a slightly larger group of players paying more attention to fitness. Maybe. It's not like there weren't players back years ago who stayed fit. And it's not like there aren't out-of-shape players today.

 

You rarely see fat guys out there on tour now a days …….. After a round, they hit the gym instead of the 19th hole....LOL!

[JD3]

> @Titleist99 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Oz Max" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Oz Max" said:

> > > > > Players nowadays have access to better knowledge about how to optimize their game (Trackman, stroke gains stats etc) and their physical fitness. I think that makes the game more competitive than ever. Look at the guys fresh out of college golf making to the PGA and winning straight away, hard to argue that the level hasn't risen dramatically. And who knows what the future will be? there are probably some freak talents out there about to start college in the US on enter the Challenge Tour in Europe.

> > > >

> > > > The level of performance has risen overall due to modern equipment. Not from higher talent levels of the players. It’s hard to argue otherwise.

> > >

> > > You can't refute that the overall athleticism has increased, guys are now all built like line backers

> >

> > There isn't one prominent player on Tour now built like a linebacker. Maybe you can compare Koepka to a cornerback. That's about it. I don't see any evidence of increased overall athleticism. Maybe there is a slightly larger group of players paying more attention to fitness. Maybe. It's not like there weren't players back years ago who stayed fit. And it's not like there aren't out-of-shape players today.

>

> You rarely see fat guys out there on tour now a days …….. After a round, they hit the gym instead of the 19th hole....LOL!

 

That's right. No Craig stadlers or John Daly's. Yeah that beef guy was around for a while but he's not a contender. They mostly look like athletes today, and that's a refreshing change.

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > >

> > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > >

> > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > >

> > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> >

> > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

>

> In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

 

Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > >

> > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > >

> > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > >

> > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > >

> > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> >

> > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

>

> Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

 

2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > >

> > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > >

> > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > >

> > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> >

> > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

>

> 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

 

Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > >

> > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > >

> > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > >

> > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> >

> > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

>

> Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

 

Now you are only talking about the US Open?

I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

[Titleist99]

> @smashdn said:

> I suppose you can call it parity. More players figured out how to hit it 320 consistently.

 

Thanks to hot Drivers and launch monitors....they can maximize their swing with the correct shaft, loft and ball. concentrating on swing speed has delivered extra yardage to any one willing to work at it. Use to be the only way to get more distance was to lower the loft on your driver, use a hot ball and switch from a fade to a draw. Most guys yearn for a butter cut.

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > > >

> > > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > > >

> > > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > > >

> > > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> > >

> > > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

> >

> > Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

>

> Now you are only talking about the US Open?

> I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

 

Already responded. Most of the guys you listed are not short, nor has a truly short hitters won in years. Lastly the top ranks are flat out dominated by bombers. Again saying distance isn't an enormous and growing factor in golf is like saying height doesn't matter for playing center in the NBA. Maybe you're challenged distance-wise off the tee, but that's no reason to be putting out misleading info.

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > > > >

> > > > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> > > >

> > > > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

> > >

> > > Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

> >

> > Now you are only talking about the US Open?

> > I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

>

> Already responded. Most of the guys you listed are not short, nor has a truly short hitters won in years. Lastly the top ranks are flat out dominated by bombers. Again saying distance isn't an enormous and growing factor in golf is like saying height doesn't matter for playing center in the NBA. Maybe you're challenged distance-wise off the tee, but that's no reason to be putting out misleading info.

 

Straw man, which is another bad argument from you. No one said distance isn't a big and growing factor. Because of the equipment, not because all of a sudden players have superior talent. And you seem to be saying that only long bombers can win nowadays, which is factually incorrect.

 

And everyone I listed is middle of the pack or lower in driving distance.

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> > > > >

> > > > > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

> > > >

> > > > Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

> > >

> > > Now you are only talking about the US Open?

> > > I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

> >

> > Already responded. Most of the guys you listed are not short, nor has a truly short hitters won in years. Lastly the top ranks are flat out dominated by bombers. Again saying distance isn't an enormous and growing factor in golf is like saying height doesn't matter for playing center in the NBA. Maybe you're challenged distance-wise off the tee, but that's no reason to be putting out misleading info.

>

> Straw man, which is another bad argument from you. No one said distance isn't a big and growing factor. Because of the equipment, not because all of a sudden players have superior talent. And you seem to be saying that only long bombers can win nowadays, which is factually incorrect.

>

> And everyone I listed is middle of the pack or lower in driving distance.

 

"Distance is an enormous and growing factor" that's what I said. Facts bear it out. Equipment I'm sure has a lot to do with it, but I think athleticism does as well. Top 3 OWGR koepka, Rory, DJ are all ripped.

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

> > > > >

> > > > > Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

> > > >

> > > > Now you are only talking about the US Open?

> > > > I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

> > >

> > > Already responded. Most of the guys you listed are not short, nor has a truly short hitters won in years. Lastly the top ranks are flat out dominated by bombers. Again saying distance isn't an enormous and growing factor in golf is like saying height doesn't matter for playing center in the NBA. Maybe you're challenged distance-wise off the tee, but that's no reason to be putting out misleading info.

> >

> > Straw man, which is another bad argument from you. No one said distance isn't a big and growing factor. Because of the equipment, not because all of a sudden players have superior talent. And you seem to be saying that only long bombers can win nowadays, which is factually incorrect.

> >

> > And everyone I listed is middle of the pack or lower in driving distance.

>

> "Distance is an enormous and growing factor" that's what I said. Facts bear it out. Equipment I'm sure has a lot to do with it, but I think athleticism does as well. Top 3 OWGR koepka, Rory, DJ are all ripped.

 

Many of the driving distance leaders aren't muscular guys. Luke List, Bubba Watson, Seth Reeves, Trey Mullinax, Jhonattan Vegas, JB Holmes, Jason Kokrak, Phil Mickelson. Even Gary Woodland isn't a lean, fit guy.

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > > > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > > > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

> > > > >

> > > > > Now you are only talking about the US Open?

> > > > > I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

> > > >

> > > > Already responded. Most of the guys you listed are not short, nor has a truly short hitters won in years. Lastly the top ranks are flat out dominated by bombers. Again saying distance isn't an enormous and growing factor in golf is like saying height doesn't matter for playing center in the NBA. Maybe you're challenged distance-wise off the tee, but that's no reason to be putting out misleading info.

> > >

> > > Straw man, which is another bad argument from you. No one said distance isn't a big and growing factor. Because of the equipment, not because all of a sudden players have superior talent. And you seem to be saying that only long bombers can win nowadays, which is factually incorrect.

> > >

> > > And everyone I listed is middle of the pack or lower in driving distance.

> >

> > "Distance is an enormous and growing factor" that's what I said. Facts bear it out. Equipment I'm sure has a lot to do with it, but I think athleticism does as well. Top 3 OWGR koepka, Rory, DJ are all ripped.

>

> Many of the driving distance leaders aren't muscular guys. Luke List, Bubba Watson, Seth Reeves, Trey Mullinax, Jhonattan Vegas, JB Holmes, Jason Kokrak, Phil Mickelson. Even Gary Woodland isn't a lean, fit guy.

 

There is the nagging fact of course that concentrated at the top are guys that are ripped. So first you try saying distance isn't a factor (which you then had to walk back on), now you're onto fitness fitness doesn't matter? Lol what a mess youve made

[LICC]

> @JD3 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo today's generation would pretty much demolish previous ones...no matter which era of equipment they were required to use. Sure Hogan and Nicklaus and a few others would still shine, but for the most part the pro ranks would be dominated by today's players. Call it fitness, training, mechanics, whatever....theres just a lot more all round sound players and almost none getting by with unusual moves (like Floyd, furyk or trevino) or obvious power deficiencies (pavin, Calvin peete, funk)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Players hit it farther today because of modern equipment. Not enhanced skill level. Players today with unusual moves- DJ, Spieth, Rahm, Finau, DeChambeau ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure we all know the equipment goes farther. But separating the players from the equipment the current pros you mentioned are perfect iron Byron's compared to the previous generations' outliers

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also Bubba Watson, Kuchar, now Matt Wolff. No Iron Byron’s in any of the swings I mentioned.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar is quite literally fading into oblivion, with no majors to his credit. The other 2 guys have tons of power.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m talking about unconventional swings.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuchar was 3rd on the money list this year.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unconventional + no power doesn't make it anymore. Kuchar has no majors, and the window is closing rapidly. Furyk, pavin, Trevino types thing of the past

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shane Lowry would rank 75th in driving distance on the European Tour this year

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick Reed ranks 71st on the PGA Tour

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Those are good. Corey pavin was last when he won us open. Hit 4 wood into 18th green where other guys had mid irons. Fred funk was last in driving distance when he won players. Not happening anymore

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > you should watch more golf, it happens all the time. lowest score and clutch putting matter now like it did 30-40 years ago.

> > > > > > > > > > > Just off the top of my head do Chez Reavie, CT Pan, Ryan Moore, Webb Simpson, Francesco Molinari, Matt Kuchar, Zach Johnson, Kyle Stanley, Brian Harman, brandt snedeker, kevin kisner,kevin na count?

> > > > > > > > > > > Because they've all won on tour recently some multiple times, some majors, some WGCs, a fedex cahmpionship and a players championship. Neither of these guys ever crack top 140 in driving distance on tour, some never 150. Same goes for the many guys ranked 80th to 140, plenty of winners and majors in there.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In recent years, there has been at least one major winner each year who isn't a long bomber. Lowry, Reed, Willet, Walker, Stenson, Spieth, Zach Johnson, Dufner, Webb Simpson ...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Johnson hasn't won a major in 4 years, and Webb was like 10+ yrs ago. The other guys are not short hitters. How anyone could think distance doesn't matter is beyond me

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 2012 was 10+ years ago. Ok ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Fine make it 7 if you want. Doesn't change the point: last 4 winners monsters off the tee: koepka (2x), DJ, Woodland. The only one not an elite player woodland, who does however have elite power

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now you are only talking about the US Open?

> > > > > > I listed 9 major winners in the last 7 years who are not long bombers off the tee.

> > > > >

> > > > > Already responded. Most of the guys you listed are not short, nor has a truly short hitters won in years. Lastly the top ranks are flat out dominated by bombers. Again saying distance isn't an enormous and growing factor in golf is like saying height doesn't matter for playing center in the NBA. Maybe you're challenged distance-wise off the tee, but that's no reason to be putting out misleading info.

> > > >

> > > > Straw man, which is another bad argument from you. No one said distance isn't a big and growing factor. Because of the equipment, not because all of a sudden players have superior talent. And you seem to be saying that only long bombers can win nowadays, which is factually incorrect.

> > > >

> > > > And everyone I listed is middle of the pack or lower in driving distance.

> > >

> > > "Distance is an enormous and growing factor" that's what I said. Facts bear it out. Equipment I'm sure has a lot to do with it, but I think athleticism does as well. Top 3 OWGR koepka, Rory, DJ are all ripped.

> >

> > Many of the driving distance leaders aren't muscular guys. Luke List, Bubba Watson, Seth Reeves, Trey Mullinax, Jhonattan Vegas, JB Holmes, Jason Kokrak, Phil Mickelson. Even Gary Woodland isn't a lean, fit guy.

>

> There is the nagging fact of course that concentrated at the top are guys that are ripped. So first you try saying distance isn't a factor (which you then had to walk back on), now you're onto fitness fitness doesn't matter? Lol what a mess youve made

 

Stop lying. Show me one time where I said "distance isn't a factor".

The top 8 in driving distance on Tour this year are Cameron Champ, Rory, Luke List, DJ, Wyndham Clark, Bubba, Seth Reeves, and Trey Mullinax. Two of them are fitness fanatics.

[Oett11]

I wonder how much is due to the technology aspect, meaning trackmans, health regimens, research availability. LIke in other sports I believe it allows more players to maximize their abilities.

[Hankshank]

Trying to figure out, do you think it’s a good or bad thing that there is no Tiger around? For me, golf was not more boring than during the Tiger hey days. I really like the diversity at the top.

[RichieHunt]

I don't think winning 3 times on Tour in a season is out of the question. Part of the issue with winning 5 times on Tour in a season is not only is the competition from top-to-bottom tough, but the prize money is so much that players that win early on can afford to play less so they have less chances to win 5 times in a season or they might not be quite as motivated to do so. That's why the FedEx cup is so important, it forces guys to play in events because there's too large of a pot at the end of the rainbow to ignore.

 

Probably the biggest thing I see today with regards to parity on Tour is that there are a lot of bombers that can flat-out putt as well. I don't think that existed as much as say back in the 90's or earlier. I think back then a lot of bombers were usually lousy putters. And if you hit it long and can putt, regardless of the rest of your game you can just get 4 good days of golf and win rather easily.

 

 

 

RH

[smashdn]

IMO

 

We need someone to hate. Some of us hate guys who are insanely good. We pull for the underdog. (You either are a Patriots/Brady fan, or you pull for the team playing them. - An example)

 

A handful of 15-20 guys that can win any given Sunday is not very dramatic. A single guy dominating and that same handful attempting to knock him off the top is more entertaining to me.

 

Guys coming out of nowhere and dominating for a bit is fun. The flash in the pan guy - John Daly.

 

Two guys battling for #1 is also very compelling, AP/JN, JN/Watson, Tiger/Phil.