Power on the PGA Tour......

[rangersgoalie]

FYI

 

 

John Deere at a different course from 1988 til 2000

[lowheel]

its a trick question because no matter how much you practice with the persimmon you wont sniff the same results...

[lowheel]

LMAO. They would get slightly more yardage then the old timers because of the concrete fairways and modern ball but would quickly lose 30+ yards per drive compared to their current gamer. No amount of money can outsmart physics.. its not even debatable

[Titleist99]

LOL!.....RSM Classic....winners share $1.15M...…..That'll make you hit it as straight as you can point...

[farmer]

I'm an old guy, so I'll answer. The first set of woods I played were Walter Hagens, driver, three, and four woods, late '60's. Yes, they were sold in sets. Then some Keller woods, driver, three, four and five woods. My favorites, company was started by Amy Alcott's teacher, but didn't last long. They were all steel shafted, the Hagen's had a proprietary shaft of some kind, the Keller's had whatever True Temper supplied en masse, in stiff. I got hooked quickly, so I stuck with it, but then, as now, most people I knew were very casual, and the difficulty in playing the clubs was not even thought about. Clubs were judged on pretty/not so pretty, but not on ease of use. About the only equipment discussion I remember that was common was about how easy it was cut a ball.

[mahonie]

You’re very good at deflecting and still haven’t answered my very simple question.

[LICC]

So now you have the view that players don’t practice as much as players from years ago? What?

[ThinkingPlus]

I believe the answer was a Stan Thompson in post #530. It was probably a laminated wood headed "ginty", but @Titleist99 could probably give you more detail.

[smashdn]

Comparing the scoring through the years, in different weather, on different courses and potentially different set-ups proves what point?

[mahonie]

Well spotted...I walked straight past that.
The point I was alluding to was that if you learned to play with persimmon you would immediately understand how easy it is to drive the modern ball with the modern driver in comparison. @Titleist99‘s viewpoint seems to be completely at odds with his experience and comes across as being a bit strange ?

[Titleist99]

You misunderstand my position, lets be clear....

Persimmon clubs are hard to hit and the newer clubs are easier....it's called progress.

If pros of today practice enough with trackman and all the programs available to them they will hit persimmons better than their counterparts of yesteryears. IMO

Today Pros will find a way to maximize distance with any club or ball (there is no way to regulate technology) IMO

Todays kids suffer from ADD (joke, sarcasm, etc...) they want instant gratification and no one wants to deal with persimmons in this day and age.

Again, I'm a club builder and if you think that I know nothing about Persimmons I have a few that i can sell you.....

hope that you don't find this response "strange"....

[mahonie]

You misunderstood my post...I said you had no idea about kids learning to play with persimmon. Just by making things easier does not equate to progress...when there is little to challenge the human intellect, boredom ensues, interest is lost and that is the way the modern game is going. It is my view, and I know the ‘power, bomb, gouge brigade’ disagree, but the modern game, dumbed down as it is and driven more and more by the dollar, is not half the game it was even 20 years ago.

[smashdn]

You guys ever play poker with wild cards? Fours, hoors, suicide kings? Gets to be pretty easy to accomplish normally difficult hands. Much easier to get a royal flush that way.

 

Think on it.

[oikos1]

Lol. The way you guys talk, any 4 cap of today ought to be able to beat a pro on any given day.

[ThinkingPlus]

Yes. It will be uppermost in my mind next time I spend 2 - 3 hours practicing at the course.

[smashdn]

If you inferred that you missed it.

 

We are all getting some benefit from the equipment advances. Some can gain more than others. I've said this before but I'll say it again, I play about 2/3 of my rounds with persimmon and blades and the other 1/3 with a modern bag. There is no comparison between the two in terms of performance. The only things that are somewhat similar are the irons (save being about two clubs shorter through the bag with the old ones) and putting.

Everything else is much easier with the modern set and the results are much less drastically bad with the modern set. A push is not terrible with the modern set, it is just offline. A draw with the modern set is a hook with old woods. If I thin my modern driver I hit a low bullet that is straight and still has a fair amount of run. If I thin the persimmon wood it is true worm burner and may not make the forward boxes.

A reduction in weight as much as anything has probably yielded the most gains. Now you can have a large clubhead at the end of a long stick and control it. You couldn't do that with wood and steel, you just couldn't swing it A and B you wouldn't have been able to control it if you could swing it.

 

Equipment doesn't close gaps, it opens them. A high capper with persimmon and blades is going to be just as high of a handicap player with modern equipment. They have inherent swing flaws to such a degree that they are not capable of being masked all the time. The bottom end of players does not change, the top end performance got greater and everyone in between spread out along that spectrum to varying degrees.

[Irishman1979]

Guys like DJ would be averaging around 275 with the persimmon Drivers. It would actually make the game more respectable in the modern age. All this bs with the new heads as big as a house is getting sort of silly. Oh and don't say "Oh they can't play courses over 7200 yards With those old clubs."

That's pure BS! Norman and Faldo both shot 66 and 67 with them at courses such as Butler National from the tips. The guys on tour today could handle it just fine if they went back to the old equipment. So why the F&% are we allowing these pro's to play the same equipment in tournaments that a 15 handicap plays with?

[Titleist99]

Balls are pretty rugged now days, I can't remember the last time that i picked up a smiley face....

[Titleist99]

If DJ, Gregg Norman and Faldo hit it 275 the rest of the field would hit it 245-250-minus.....

So yes, all those long courses will be obsolete.

The long guys will figure out a way to hit it 300 and the short guys will be off tour.

[lowheel]

 

[bigred90gt]

Are you saying you believe the “modern game” is so easy and provides so little challenge that people are losing interest because of it?

[smashdn]

Snead was hitting it 280. Hogan was back around 250-265. Somehow they managed and short guys still won on tour. Real short guys. Corey Pavin short. Long guys are still long, short guys are still short. But there is some length out there in which the impact of distance and accuracy are nearly even. Right now we are past that. I don't know what distance that actually is. But at some point between 1985 and 2010 it flipped and distance hit became more important than how accurately you could hit it off the tee. The gap of the impact on scoring of those two variables has been growing since then.

 

Move up a box. You can't move back a box if there isn't one there to move back to. Simple as that. Don't think of it as long courses are obsolete, they just aren't a necessity. It deepens the pool of courses from which you can hold a tournament.

 

There is a way to hit it 300 with persimmon. I have done it. You hit a blistered low draw and let it run out 40 yards. The ball doesn't hit and stick and you have to take into account all of the trouble along that 40 yards of run and where you land it. That bunker sitting out there at 265 is very much back in play. You can't just go over it. A slight miss and you are severely punished in terms of both distance and direction. (Or tee it high and use a tailwind.)

^That would be my ideal if you are asking what is a "total test of golf" and entertaining. If you can hit it 300 yards with equipment performance more similar to that available around 1980 then bully for you, you are really doing something. I think you end up with shorter overall driving distance which puts longer irons in everyone's hands and more distance lost on mis-hits which would put more premium on ball striking skill. What the equipment is allowed to be can be another issue.

 

Listen to what he says about the time he needs practicing his current driver and how "dialed-in" or not dialed-in he can be on any given day and still play good golf. Listen to what he says he would need to do to make the old driver and the old ball work for him. It isn't really about distance but more about the forgiveness of modern drivers on slight mis-hits. Couple that with a ball that spins and you really need to be good to control the ball well enough to score. The balls don't spin as much today and the clubs don't make the balls spin as much. If the ball spins enough the distance takes care of itself to an extent. This is chiefly why I think the ball should be the thing to look at if you want to effect change in the game. IF you want to.

[gvogel]

It really doesn't matter what you think about courses being obsolete, or what I think about courses being obsolete.

What does matter is what the organizations that put on golf tournaments for highly skilled players think. Here are some examples.

Augusta National is quite concerned with power, and have bought a huge tract of land behind the 13th tee so that they can lengthen that hole.

When the Open was held at Royal Portrush, the R&A had the club build two new holes out of holes on their adjacent course, replacing two finishing holes that were shorter and easier.

When the USGA goes to The Country Club, they patch in a few holes from a third nine in order to lengthen the resulting course for the competition.

When they play the Presidents Cup at Royal Melbourne, the PGA and its counter part in Australia will use a composite course, as the original course is not long enough.

Those are some examples of courses that are becoming, or have become obsolete due to modern equipment.

[bigred90gt]

The reality is that they could still hold the tournaments at the courses without modifying them, and the best player that week would win. The "problem" is a "perception" issue, not an actual problem. The powers that be have a perception issue with low scores, so they want to do stupid stuff to make it appear more difficult. If they held the tournaments on the courses, unmodified, I would bet the farm that viewership would not change and the product would still sell.

[James the Hogan Fan]

To a point. If they held it at a Par 3 course, the best player would still win (or at least best wedge player), but no one would tune in to see it. Absurdity aside, perception does matter. Ask the Arena Football League or 3 on 3 basketball league. I agree holding these tournaments on the original course wouldn't affect much, but holding it at say the 6004 yard Lake Chabot Golf Course would probably not sell as a major, or anything other than a gimmick event. Audiences do expect some degree of challenge, I think. (And I do wish the tour would sanction an annual tourney at a random 6500yd muni once a year with zero tour prep, just the usual daily play setup. I would like to see how low they could go. But not every event)

[DFS PFD]

They would probably struggle on your average muni simply because of putting. These guys are used to perfect green that hold their lines, can't remember the stories but there's a few out there about touring pro's not going as low as you would think when playing on less than optimal greens. I know this isn't distance related.

[smashdn]

Pebble in the afternoon, Chambers Bay, ...

[DFS PFD]

We definitely pictured different muni's haha! I join your group...

[bladehunter]

I keep going back to this. On older courses. There are bo boxes to go back too. I’ve played 6500 yard courses built in the 60s recently that have par 5s with doglegs off the tee thay I cant hit driver on. One in particular takes driver down to 5 holes. And puts 5 irons in my hand on non par 3 tee boxes because of doglegs . This makes being long irrelevant. Why ? I’m hitting approaches from the same spot as everyone else.

 

I know that this effects some who cant move up too. But I honestly believe on older courses the number effected on both ends is pretty even. And for whatever reason it seems to be then men in the middle tees who create the largest fuss. They don’t want to move up ( although they can and should ) and cannot imagine why anyone would want or need to move back.

[oikos1]

Well, you too have options. Relish your skill with your irons, play the "reduced" ball or smaller headed drivers, or move up to big boy courses. If your argument is "it's not fair" that I hit it so far, well then, good luck with that.