Long irons help

[jpdx]

Made a swing change (more of a setup change)and I’m still undecided on it. In all honesty it’s worked well and I’m more consistent on my hybrid, short irons and wedges. the changes were to strengthen my grip even more on my left hand (to the point I see 4 knuckles) and weaker with my right (right handed golfer) and slightly further away from the ball with ball positions the same as before - no changes as far as forward or back on the lead/trail side. The change was suggested by a coach that I got a gift certificate for at a local course - and had actually heard good things from. He also wants me to get to parallel on the backswing, which has proven difficult for me due to flexibility issues.

the problem arises when I hit my 4-6 (and driver initially but I think I’ve nailed down my driver issue).

I previously had no Issue elevating long irons. Now I have very flat and low trajectory with them, which I don’t like, and I seem to have a loss of distance creating a huge gap on carry between my 7 and my hy. I carry my jacked loft 7i between 160-170, my hy 195-200 on avg. by eyeball estimates. The carry now via eyeball tracker is 150-170 on 4/5/6 because of the trajectory, on all three clubs.

i realize that it’ll be much more helpful to have a video at least but I frankly don’t have one. Just looking for some ideas that might help me get back on track with the long irons. Thanks to those that take on this challenge.

[jpdx]

got a video this evening with my 5 and my hybrid. Not sure how to get them posted.

[naj959]

upload to youtube then post link.

[Atrayn]

"He also wants me to get to parallel on the backswing," -This is really not an issue.

It's been my experience that most people that struggle with elevating the long irons and woods is due to the fact that they are delofting those clubs. Most of the time it's because they having too much shaft lean

Why varies based on the individual.

 

 

[ferrispgm]

Getting to parallel should not be a requirement...if he is saying that as a feel to make a better shoulder turn then maybe that's ok but saying you have to get to parallel is absolute and total BS. Make a good shoulder turn with proper hip rotation..potentially let the lead heal lift... and if you are short of parallel then fine. Trying to get there will easily lead to arm overrun and a swing that's actually too long relating to hip/shoulder turn and potentially the arms trailing behind you too much on the way down. If your arms swing long, you could also start sliding your body forward to make contact and that's no good either. Since your trajectory is low that may actually be the case as you are probably steep coming into impact.

Elevating long irons is a result of speed...don't worry about the shaft lean, that will take care of itself when you fix other issues. If

[Atrayn]

Shaft position at impact is important. Like I said it's dependant on the individual issue.

Shaft Angle of your Irons and Hybrids, Golf Video – by Pete Styles

[ferrispgm]

I agree it's important but you are better off making your swing better and letting that sort out impact than trying to just create less of a shaft angle at impact.

[Atrayn]

I am not saying, "create less shaft angle at impact". That's a recipe for disaster as most would do that by releasing the angle in the right wrist. That has way too much variability.

Here is another way related to a couple key Trackman stats:

Do you think this 1 handicapper has enough speed? How to hit the long irons higher

[jpdx]

5i

hybrid

let see if this works. Btw: I am trying to hit a fade on both of these if it matters, not 100% sure why I am working on shaping when I’m having issues with trajectory, but I am ?

 

[jpdx]

@naj959 thanks for the suggestion. Didn’t think of that.@ferrispgm I thought it was funny that it was suggested to “get to parallel” even Though I always hear it on tv, YouTube just as often as I hear hit at 70-90% (which implies to me, not parallel)
speed meaning club head speed right? I assume my 160-170 carry with a 7i would suggest that there’s enough ch speed to get the long irons to have a higher apex than what I’m seeing (btw avg carry with my driver on a good to great strike id guesstimate to be 240-270)
@Atrayn rhanks for the video I’ll check it out when I get some time

[ferrispgm]

Yeah....getting to parallel with an iron especially is no bueno...Most pros don't get there with long irons and a lot barely do with driver. Correct on clubhead speed. You need speed to create the backspin to get the ball up. If you are hitting driver 240-270 that tells me 2 things. 1 you are missing the center of the face alot. 2. Assuming a decently solid hit on average you hit it 260 so you probably carry it 240-250. If that's the case, your 7 iron is going too far so you are probably steep and getting a lower launch as a result. You need to find why you are steep and fix that. You will eventually see a better flight but given your distance with driver, it will probably be in mid trajectory range.

[jpdx]

7i trajectory seems to be fine. I’d guess apex 90-100ft, at least to the top, if not above the tops of the pines bordering the range.

re driver distance, I’m talking carry distance. Yes I’m maybe 2/10 exactly on the sweet spot, 2/10 exact center of face. (I understand the sweet spot isn’t necessarily the exact center of the face per the wishon thread around here) 1/10 way off (hi toe, low heel type shots) The rest 5/10 1/4in area around the center...From memory

at this point I’ll take mid trajectory instead of 20ft apex stinger 4/5/6’s that go 150yds lol!

did you happen to watch either video. Anything glaringly obvious that I might’ve missed? I mean, I know it’s not a pro swing, but hey, it’s mine and it’s the best I can do with the info I have. Lol

 

 

[ferrispgm]

I can't view due to stupid youtube restrictions on my office computer. I'll take a look when I get home later.

[ferrispgm]

You look too bent over at hips. You want your arm pits knees and ball of feet on the same line or very close. Also it looks like you hinge your wrists late and float load starting down and get very steep. YouTube Monte Scheinblum no turn cast drill. Basically it’s the opposite of what you are doing

[jpdx]

huh, interesting observations. Funny what people see are different. Maybe I shouldn’t have gone to the coach I did....

he’s the one that had me get more bent. That is the setup change I referred to in my original post as well. Said specifically I wasn’t bending enough. I asked him specifically if it was just the short iron and wedges or all clubs, he told me, all clubs. In fact in my first post I mentioned maybe figuring out my driver- it was a direct result of one change- getting less bent at the hips.

as far as late hinge, I know I do that. I’m not sure how to hinge sooner. The coach wanted me to a stronger grip to help hinge sooner. Maybe i hinge earlier than before but I don’t have Videos to see the before and after.

im headed to the range soon if I get home in a reasonable time. I’ll pay attention to that. Thank you for the insight!

[mgoblue83]

Stand closer and keep your arms more connected. You can bend like the coach is saying without needing to move the ball farther away. Just requires you to clear your hips and keep the right side bend through impact (very powerful) instead of reaching out and slapping the ball like you are doing (weak).

 

[ferrispgm]

Absolutely....definitely watch the No turn cast drill vdieo on youtube though...I think it will help quite a bit...film yourself doing it from behind and face on.....

[jpdx]

Did you happen to watch the video I was able to get uploaded? I realize I probably should’ve had a face on but could delofting be a result of my float load that @ferrispgm referred to?
i wasn’t familiar with float load until you mentioned it and I read up on some threads here on that subject. Is float load bad? I’ve always done it , it feels like anyways, and it wasn’t anything taught to me. Sorta natural. Just in that train of thought and piggy backing the above quote, could float load lead me to get ahead of everything and then cause the delofting?
Yesterday before watching the drill video, I did get out and try out bending less at the hips and really working on getting everything more in line (shoulders, knees, balls of feet). I was able to get a few back to my old trajectory with decently high ball flight, perhaps 60/70ft apex and contact was better too - Landing past the 150 marker and before the 175 flag with half to 3/4 swings
being valentines I didn’t get out to the range to try out or work on montes drill. If I went there I wouldn’t be posting right now ?. But it’s on my to do list to try next time at the range.
thanks for the input.

[glk]

Too far from ball (too bent from waist, knees not enough bend) , take the club too outside, early rolling forearms, too late wrist set, start standing up in backswing (and continue thru rest of swing) - all leads to a steep pull down with arms rotating to the left and an out to in path which cuts across the ball at a steep angle - can't see club head thru impact to tell face angle. I can see how as club go down in loft this move becomes more problematic. You get more depth with the hybrid versus the iron so the out to in is less severe.

first, I'd find a new instructor - if you are taking lessons and they think this is okay then run away. No single tip on here is going to get you headed in the right direction . See a teaching pro - one who makes a living teaching golf like Monte, iteach - online works if none are close to you. Sorry if this sounds harsh but that teacher is doing you no favors with the changes you listed - getting you way bent over away from the ball, changing your grip, asking you to get to parallel (I don't see any flexibility issues just poor mechanics - you are plenty flexible) - all the while ignoring the red flags of the setup, takeaway, lack and loss of body angles, and lack of wrist set.

[Hawkeye77]

Something I think about on fairway wood, hybrid, 5 iron in particular that Faldo mentioned in passing within the last week or two - have to remember the longer clubs need a little more time to get to the ball, feel a little more width.

I'm not claiming any science on that, and it may not be even be true, but as a feel it works for me to keep from throwing the right shoulder out/forward and getting steep and lashing at it, lol. Thinking "remember it's 3w not wedge" helps me.

[Atrayn]

I had a chance to review your 5i video. You are laid off at the top of your swing. Right after that you pull the handle and get really steep and are coming over the top. You aren't throwing your right shoulder at the ball. It's dropping straight down.

Honestly, you need to abandon your coach. There's quite a bit more going on here that's causing your issues. I saw a great episode of Swing Expedition this morning on TGC this morning with Chuck Cook that describes what I am trying to convey. Monte has talked about moving the right shoulder to the ball. This is also discussed in the Chuck Cook episode, check it out

 

[jpdx]

Thank you for your insight. I hadn’t notice before that I got so steep before reviewing the vid for myself and I agree with you re: coming ott.

the coach is done. It was a one time thing because of the gift certificate. Tbh, I wasnt thrilled with some of the stuff he had said and couldn’t really relay why he wanted me to change the things He wanted me to change. I’d like to give him benefit of doubt that my wedges and short iron improvement was a result of what he said, mostly so that I don’t feel I “wasted” the gc. But Now I feel like I have to fix what was broken lol. Thanks for your insight.

went out with a buddy today and really focused on the monte video thoughts and feels when I had to hit the 5/6. Feels more like what I had felt prior to the “lesson”

[tthomasgolfer605]

The grip change was a band aid fix due to an open club face which helped you square up with the short irons., hence the improvement First things first. Don't stick your butt out at address. It inhibits your hip turn. Basically you need to free up the lower body. The OTT move is exaggerated with a stagnant/rigid lower body. Once you get the setup right you can work on the correct sequence. See how Tiger's knees line up with his armpits?

[jpdx]

Thanks. Perhaps enlighten me, how would the grip change help an open club face? Stronger lead hand and WEAKER trail hand? It seems counter to advice I hear all Over the place regarding the “v’s” with the grip he had me change to, I feel like the lead v is pointed almost outside of my right shoulder while the right hand v is almost directly at my chin, it was that extreme. I hear the v’s should point at the right, or trail shoulder right? I don’t know that I necessarily had an issue with shots heading right (fade as I’m a righty golfer hacker) my shots prior were a more often a draw path - sometimes too much left. I’d say miss was more often left than right - yes an occasional slice as I got lazy but that was before the changes. Now I seem to hit more of a fade on a consistent basis
thank for your observations @tthomasgolfer605
I have been working at the Home and range on posture in a mirror. I feel more natural and not so bent over. Ball flight has gotten better but not to where it was before. Thanks everyone for your help. The process continues. Monte’s video was almost an ah-ha moment to get more hinge set earlier and I feel much better. Still getting steep coming down and a bit ott, but all in all flight and contact with the long irons is much better than when I started this thread.

[crapula]

Set up too much on heels. Downswing you are steep because weight goes out to toes, those things have to happen so you balance yourself out.

[MonteScheinblum]

Too far away and lack of vertical wrist set is forcing you to bring the club head out way too early.

 

 

[FusedSpineScratch]

Relax those knees a bit. Get comfortable. You look rigid. Club head is going way out and no real vertical hinge throughout the swing. Set up with relaxed knees and arms, low hands, firm grip. Helps to get the upward hinge.

Good luck.

[jpdx]

id like to say thanks to everyone that’s contributed. I’ve tried pretty much everything mentioned and getting the feels back. How steep and ott I was getting in the still pictures above was an eye opener. Also I think there was something about Getting ahead of the ball in @MonteScheinblum video that has been getting me back on the right track.
still not back to where I was before the lesson, but ball flight is much better now and contact is better as well. The suggestions also helped me gain distance on my short irons. My 8i blade was previously my 150 goto and now I’m back to My 8i blade as my goto for 150 (I had to use my 7i vapor pro in the funk/slump I was in, to get 150 on the fly. The really bad days I needed my 6i ???). Although the long irons are not as consistent as pre-lesson, I’m getting there. The changes have made my short iron even more consistent.
Thank you all.

[Wolkis90]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:16 PM, jpdx said:

Made a swing change (more of a setup change)and I’m still undecided on it. In all honesty it’s worked well and I’m more consistent on my hybrid, short irons and wedges. the changes were to strengthen my grip even more on my left hand (to the point I see 4 knuckles) and weaker with my right (right handed golfer) and slightly further away from the ball with ball positions the same as before - no changes as far as forward or back on the lead/trail side. The change was suggested by a coach that I got a gift certificate for at a local course - and had actually heard good things from. He also wants me to get to parallel on the backswing, which has proven difficult for me due to flexibility issues.

the problem arises when I hit my 4-6 (and driver initially but I think I’ve nailed down my driver issue).

I previously had no Issue elevating long irons. Now I have very flat and low trajectory with them, which I don’t like, and I seem to have a loss of distance creating a huge gap on carry between my 7 and my hy. I carry my jacked loft 7i between 160-170, my hy 195-200 on avg. by eyeball estimates. The carry now via eyeball tracker is 150-170 on 4/5/6 because of the trajectory, on all three clubs.

i realize that it’ll be much more helpful to have a video at least but I frankly don’t have one. Just looking for some ideas that might help me get back on track with the long irons. Thanks to those that take on this challenge.

There are a few things that could be causing your issues with your long irons. It sounds like your grip changes might be one issue - if you're gripping the club too tightly, that can definitely affect your trajectory and distance. Another possibility is that your ball position might be off - if you're too far forward or back, that can also cause problems. Finally, it could be an issue with your swing plane - if you're not getting parallel on the backswing, that could be affecting your long irons.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Wolkis90

[writing running]

On 2/13/2020 at 11:31 AM, Atrayn said:

Can someone explain to me how the second drill fixes the issue of too little shaft lean -- specifically, how does gripping down on the club and doing a crunch, sort of, increase shaft lean?   I don't follow this tip and never heard of it before this video. I struggle with flipping, so I am very curious. Thanks! 

Shaft position at impact is important. Like I said it's dependant on the individual issue.

 

Shaft Angle of your Irons and Hybrids, Golf Video – by Pete Styles