Is the handicap PCC working?

[Newby]

Didn't realize you were in CONGU land.

Check my Icon

and we spell it 'realise'

[nsxguy]

Well, I did quote Deceptively Short, not you. His "avatar" doesn't reveal his home country.

I do know you are in CONGU LAND but we still spell it "realize".

You know, 2 great nations separated by a common language.

[Newby]

Well, I did quote Deceptively Short, not you. 

Oops

[dwboston]

I'm beginning to take the PCC calculation personally. I've had 3 scores out of my most recent 8 affected by a -1 PCC adjustment after the fact. Two of those were decent to good rounds on my part - 81 and 78 on my home course, with is par-72 and 73.9/138 from the blue tees. I was feeling pretty good after shooting 78 - I'm a 7.0 index currently, which translates into a 10 course HC from the blue tees. I was really struggling a month ago, took a lesson and have worked hard, and my scores have started to improve. But apparently my 78 wasn't that great, since the course was playing "easier" that day. For all I know, the PCC came into play for everyone that day because I broke 80. ? I was under the impression that PCC was supposed to be relatively rare, but seeing it three times in less than a month feels odd.

[North Butte]

I dunno. Even 82 and 79 would sound like pretty darned good scores on a long, hard course to me!

 

[bazinky]

I've yet to see a PCC adjustment in the wild. Given that some people seem to be seeing quite a lot, it makes me wonder if there are different regional implementations of this process.

[davep043]

IT may be rare over a long period of time, yet still come into play several times in a short time period. This is like flipping a coin 20 times and getting heads 15 of them. Its a rare outcome, statistically improbable, yet still quite within the realm of possibility. A PCC 3 times within a month is also improbable, but completely possible. And yes, your really good score could have been at least partly due to "easier conditions", and it certainly was part of the calculation for the PCC, assuming you posted it promptly.The calculation is the same for every course. The difference could be the posting habits of the players. If the score isn't posted on the day of play, it is not included in the analysis. If fewer than 8 scores are posted, the PCC is automatically zero. Or there just haven't been any day where the scores, as a group, weren't far enough from the expected values to trigger a PCC, which is in itself a bit improbable. I just checked my home club, and we've had a PCC on 7 days this year, including both Saturday and Sunday from this past weekend, three times total in July. Three of the adjustments were positive (higher than expected scores), 4 were -1 (lower than expected scores).

 

[ThinkingPlus]

Another factor folks should keep in mind relative to the PCC is that inevitably some courses are not rated as accurately as others. If, over time, you see a trend of many PCC adjustments for a specific course, but rarely at other courses in the same area then there is a rating issue.

[davep043]

I've thought through this, and I'm not sure it will happen that way at any private club. After all, the handicaps of members will have been based on largely the ratings at their home club, where they play most of their rounds, however inaccurate they might be. As long as players are shooting the same scores, their differentials will remain largely as expected. This definitely COULD happen in areas where golfers play a variety of courses regularly, consistently low differentials on one course and not on others might produce the effect you describe.

[ThinkingPlus]

That's probably true. Despite being a member now of a CC, my mindset is still public course.

[nsxguy]

One should also keep in mind the weather.

While weather itself is NOT a factor in calculating the PCC it is OFTEN a factor in producing the higher or lower scores.

In the northeast, prime time is right around now when the weather is at its best,,,,,,,,,,, and so are the course conditions. That lends itself to lower scores.

In the northeast, early season and, to maybe a slightly lesser degree, late season, one often shoots higher scores due to,,,,,,, the weather. It's often cold and damp, the ground is very hard and greens are bumpy and, most of us haven't played in 5 months. Our club ALWAYS saw higher than average scores during this time.

When I played twice every weekend in NY, April 1 through November 1, my handicap would start high (from the previous season), dip down through the middle of August, roughly when course conditions started to deteriorate again (this time because of the heat LOL), and then start to rise until it was back at its highest point around Nov 1.

I would expect the PCC to follows a similar pattern. Then again, in the crazy year of Covid, who knows ?

[Augster]

What I am mainly noticing is I get PCC adjustments when I play in tournaments. At the tournament last weekend, I’d say, probably, 90 of the 130 guys don’t play that course as their home course. Plus most all of the guys keep a cap. Plus it’s a tournament on a hard course with faster than normal greens.

So it’s a perfect storm. A lot of away golfers, that don’t know the course very well, that post a lot of scores, playing a hard course during tough tournament conditions. Virtually nobody shot net par or better. So both days I got a +1 PCC. Same thing during the Sunday round at the previous tourney.

Outside of tournies, I rarely see PCC. And those are mostly days I get a -1 because the course is too easy. Out of 137 rounds, 4 are +1 and they are all tourney rounds. I also have 3, -1 rounds on away courses that I happened to shoot lights out (for me). If I hadn’t posted those days, maybe the other posters wouldn’t have been saddled with the -1’s.

 

[North Butte]

I've now had 6 PCC=-1 rounds this year (out of 80 total rounds) and when I see the -1 I always try to think back whether there was anything unusual about the day. More golfers than usual? Tournament going on? Unusual weather? Course maintenance?

So far I can never come up with anything obvious that ought to cause it. Most of them are just regular days with the regular mix of groups, couples, singles, old guys, kids, etc. I'm about ready to conclude that one out of every 10-15 rounds simply end up randomly having enough low differentials to meet the -1 threshold.

Haven't yet seen a +1 which I suppose might mean the rating of is off by a fraction in the "rated harder than it plays" direction. But not nearly enough information to reach such a nitpicky conclusion. Maybe if I see twenty -1's out the next 200 rounds or something.

 

[klebs01]

I haven’t seen a single adjustment in the 51 rounds I’ve posted this year. 42 have been at my club so handicaps are based on those ratings which may reduce the likelihood. Haven’t even seen one in the tournament rounds. I emailed the WSGA and they said they’ve seen them but I’m somewhat skeptical as the handicap wide doesn’t have a place to display the PCC.

[davep043]

Ask someone at your club who has admin rights to GHIN (pro or committee chair) to print a list of PCC adjustments. He should be able to get a list for your club, for a specific number of nearby clubs, or for the entire state or regional Golf Association. In Virginia, the report for 2020 to date is 41 pages long, with 22 entries per page.

[klebs01]

Wisconsin uses Bluegolf not GHIN. I suppose I could reply to their email response asking for a report.

[davep043]

Your club's handicap administrator can probably get a report from Bluegolf, then. Or as you say, ask Bluegolf directly. Or maybe the "support" link for WSGA?

I just took a look at some random names, and I see that there's no column in the report for "adjustments", which would include the PCC. Based on what I see in the handicap rules, adjustments are supposed to be shown in a player's record.

[Southern by Choice]

I was interested in this older topic since I had a PCC adjustment of +3 last week—I’ve never seen one this high!  I played in an outing for 40 (mostly senior) women golfers, and the rest of the course's tee sheet was very full, as well.  The day was warm, but the wind conditions were horrific.  Anyone else ever see a PCC of +/- 3?  This is the maximum allowable, BTW.

[karstens_ghost]

12 hours ago, Southern by Choice said:

I was interested in this older topic since I had a PCC adjustment of +3 last week—I’ve never seen one this high!  I played in an outing for 40 (mostly senior) women golfers, and the rest of the course's tee sheet was very full, as well.  The day was warm, but the wind conditions were horrific.  Anyone else ever see a PCC of +/- 3?  This is the maximum allowable, BTW.

 

Had it twice, but I dare not say anything in this forum about it anymore. 

[davep043]

12 hours ago, Southern by Choice said:

I was interested in this older topic since I had a PCC adjustment of +3 last week—I’ve never seen one this high!  I played in an outing for 40 (mostly senior) women golfers, and the rest of the course's tee sheet was very full, as well.  The day was warm, but the wind conditions were horrific.  Anyone else ever see a PCC of +/- 3?  This is the maximum allowable, BTW.

I know I've seen a +2, and I think I saw +3 once.  In the other direction, -1 is the maximum under the rules for days when scoring is really low.

[Bonneville85308]

12 hours ago, Southern by Choice said:

I was interested in this older topic since I had a PCC adjustment of +3 last week—I’ve never seen one this high!  I played in an outing for 40 (mostly senior) women golfers, and the rest of the course's tee sheet was very full, as well.  The day was warm, but the wind conditions were horrific.  Anyone else ever see a PCC of +/- 3?  This is the maximum allowable, BTW.

 

I've had +3's probably 4 times already. 3 of those days were extremely windy and the 4th was right after fall overseeding when the course was thick and wet with zero roll and super slow greens.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Bonneville85308

[bcjim]

First of all, with this post, I am surely enshrining the standard for longest time between registration and first post. Over 10 years(!)  I do read, often regularly, sometimes irregularly, and I appreciate a lot of the stuff people contribute.

 

Anyway, I am in the camp that PCC should be at least made far more transparent if not eliminated.

 

My complaint is that in a course dense location (like where I live), the weather is the same at dozens of courses. People that play munis, quiet clubs, or any course where not a lot of people post, don't get a benefit that payers at a busy private club 5 minutes away might get.

 

There have been so many days when I'm thinking, surely today...but no. Never.  I've been punished routinely, but never compensated and it seems likely that its because few players at the courses I play post scores (and less often probably on tough days). 

 

To boost confidence in the system, a list of courses with PCC adjustments should be made publicly available daily.

 

 

[rogolf]

4 minutes ago, bcjim said:

First of all, with this post, I am surely enshrining the standard for longest time between registration and first post. Over 10 years(!)  I do read, often regularly, sometimes irregularly, and I appreciate a lot of the stuff people contribute.

 

Anyway, I am in the camp that PCC should be at least made far more transparent if not eliminated.

 

My complaint is that in a course dense location (like where I live), the weather is the same at dozens of courses. People that play munis, quiet clubs, or any course where not a lot of people post, don't get a benefit that payers at a busy private club 5 minutes away might get.

 

There have been so many days when I'm thinking, surely today...but no. Never.  I've been punished routinely, but never compensated and it seems likely that its because few players at the courses I play post scores (and less often probably on tough days). 

 

To boost confidence in the system, a list of courses with PCC adjustments should be made publicly available daily.

 

 

PCC is not based solely on weather, but overall conditions (which could include weather, but also includes other things such as tough hole locations).  And there needs to be a minimum of 8 scores posted for handicap purposes, posted by midnight. 

[Shilgy]

21 minutes ago, bcjim said:

First of all, with this post, I am surely enshrining the standard for longest time between registration and first post. Over 10 years(!)  I do read, often regularly, sometimes irregularly, and I appreciate a lot of the stuff people contribute.

 

Anyway, I am in the camp that PCC should be at least made far more transparent if not eliminated.

 

My complaint is that in a course dense location (like where I live), the weather is the same at dozens of courses. People that play munis, quiet clubs, or any course where not a lot of people post, don't get a benefit that payers at a busy private club 5 minutes away might get.

 

There have been so many days when I'm thinking, surely today...but no. Never.  I've been punished routinely, but never compensated and it seems likely that its because few players at the courses I play post scores (and less often probably on tough days). 

 

To boost confidence in the system, a list of courses with PCC adjustments should be made publicly available daily.

 

 

Even with similar weather surely you agree it could affect different courses in a different manner?  One club might experience on a windy day a lot of crosswind holes while at its neighboring course he wind may make the difficult holes all play downwind. Couple that with with easy or difficult pin positions and all bets are off.

 

As @rogolfmentions the PCC is not a “weather based” algorithm. It is solely based on scores posted that day.  If they are higher enough than norm you would get an adjustment and also with score lower.

[bcjim]

Yes, I understand weather is not the only factor but its by far the biggest factor. And it's not localized to one course usually.

 

If the course I played had few scores posted while clubs A, B, and C, within a 5 mile radius, had +2 adjustments, then its a seemingly unfair system. And I am only advocating for transparency. At the very least I should be able to verify that I am getting screwed (or not if that's the case).

[rogolf]

40 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Yes, I understand weather is not the only factor but its by far the biggest factor. And it's not localized to one course usually.

 

If the course I played had few scores posted while clubs A, B, and C, within a 5 mile radius, had +2 adjustments, then its a seemingly unfair system. And I am only advocating for transparency. At the very least I should be able to verify that I am getting screwed (or not if that's the case).

The PCC system's algorithm works the same for each individual course, you're not being singled out or "screwed" by the system.  The number of scores posted for each course determines the probability of an adjustment, the 8 score minimum just triggers the algorithm, a greater number of unexpected/abnormal scores increases the probability of an adjustment.

[karstens_ghost]

You just have to "trust" it, because it's a proprietary algorithm and no one can know the magic. Secret. Shhh. No one knows, so it's "fair".

[davep043]

For those who wish to know the "secret formula" for the PCC, do you have access to each and every score posted at your course for each day?  If you do have access to that data, you have what you need to form a reasonable conclusion about the appropriateness of the PCC, without knowing how the PCC is calculated.  And you'll have a much easier time accessing that data, go ask your Handicap Committee chair or anyone else who has Administrator access to the handicap system.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

You just have to "trust" it, because it's a proprietary algorithm and no one can know the magic. Secret. Shhh. No one knows, so it's "fair".

 

You have plenty of players who don't trust the handicap system and they KNOW how that's calculated (sans PCC). Just read the forums here.

 

Or take the 3 games I play in regularly, none of which even use the WHS.

 

So I wouldn't worry about a secret calculation, which, btw, I would have NO IDEA of whether it's right, wrong, or sideways.

 

It'd be like me telling NASA their rocket fuel mixture "isn't quite right".

[Halebopp]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

For those who wish to know the "secret formula" for the PCC, do you have access to each and every score posted at your course for each day?  If you do have access to that data, you have what you need to form a reasonable conclusion about the appropriateness of the PCC, without knowing how the PCC is calculated.  And you'll have a much easier time accessing that data, go ask your Handicap Committee chair or anyone else who has Administrator access to the handicap system.

 

My personal interest would lie only in seeing how it's done. Over the years I've ran my own excel sheets to do Annual Handicap Reviews (when EGA handicaps used it) etc. just for the fun of it. 🙂