The R&A is coming for Bryson

[vman]

For me the R and A should have a rethink over the Armlock putter.

[nsxguy]

"I was just pointing on that, probably, he could not do what he has done without the shaft technology being there. So, my thoughts are he bulked up and swings faster, which is admirable, but the result was something that in the past would not have been possible to the extent he has taken it."

Well, I get that but as @chigolfer1 alluded to the same things are available to everyone else.
So long as the playing field is level what're ya gonna do ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[oikos1]

“It's all been put on hold because the world has a lot more to worry about. And we were conscious of the golf industry having the time to recover,” Slumbers said. "But we will bring that topic back—because it does need to be discussed."“Once we feel that the industry is stable again, which isn't going to be tomorrow, because we don't know what's going to happen over autumn and winter, we will be coming back to that issue in great seriousness.” -R&A Chief Martin Slumbers

Twenty years and counting. There is a huge financial elephant in the room, called the PGA Tour and all of it's sponsors, that "someone" keeps trying to hide.

[BigBlue7]

How exactly can they change equipment so that only the fast swingers are impacted and guys like Zach Johnson aren't?

[smashdn]

Regarding your first point, I just think BD is the first to do so, perhaps because he is a tinkerer? I'm not faulting him here at all, just saying that shaft tech plays a big role in his ability to do it.

 

It really does turn course design on its ear. You hardly ever see something intentionally placed at 350 yards off the tee. Why would you? Your longest guys (up till now) couldn't get it out there that far. If you are a shorter hitter and lay up short of say a fairway bunker at 270, you probably hit it 250. Even still you are going to go over whatever would be at 350. It is no man's land for decent golfers and if there were a hazard/design feature at 350 it would be in play for a bad mishit. At that Ross course where BD was driving it the fairway was wider and there were no bunkers. He was smartly aggressive. Playing to the spot he did meant he went past the worst of the issues.

Take JT this past week. He laid back often with the 3w which just made the design features come more into play for him in some instances. If you can blow it over the junk do it.

 

To address that issue, without touching equipment, you either move the tees back (if oyu are able) or you start putting stuff out at 350-370 to give these guys pause before they hit out there. Then you have fairway bunkers and other stuff for almost 150 yards down the fairway to maintain. That costs a ton of money to create and maintain. That doesn't make golf more sustainable or affordable.

 

I see three big differences between playing modern tech clubs and persimmon and blades. The first is how high you hit the ball with a driver. A persimmon driver, for me anyway, just doesn't do well when hit high. It goes significantly shorter. I can't go over trees on really aggressive lines or cut doglegs. That was supposedly what made Nicklaus so good with driver. He could hit the more controllable fade when everyone else was hitting a running draw to get more distance from their drives. But he didn't give up distance to do so because of his strength and length.

Secondly, is how much you are penalized distance-wise from a slight mis-hit. If you aren't on the sweet spot you can feel it and you can see it in the ball flight. You lose 20-30 yards at minimum if it is not pure. You hit it pure it is really not too far off modern driver distance-wise.

Lastly, is the amount off-line you hit it when you mis-hit it. A push or push fade with a modern driver is slice with a persimmon driver, regardless of the ball. With a spinnier ball it becomes more pronounced. That alone would cause guys to throttle back to ensure proper contact. That was a natural governor of swing speed.

Technology didn't create BD's swing speed, it only allows him to control it to an extent.

[smashdn]

I ain't doing nothing. Neither is the R&A. It is within the current rules and available to everyone else. No argument from me otherwise.

[maowv]

I'm going to ask this question and I expect I'll catch a bunch of flack in doing so. I'm not saying he is or he is not, but my eyes have seen something similar before. Is anyone asking the obvious question?

 

[Stevens24]

PGA Tour shakes up drug testing policy for 2018 season

Since the 2017-2018 seas they have.

 

[chigolfer1]

Who are you referring to as far as your "eyes seeing something similar before?" I've seen guys get jacked on steroids before and the after picture sure doesn't look like Bryson is looking.

[PhilsFanDrew]

I don't think its roids or PEDs. He's definitely bulkier but judging by his appearance he's gained both good and bad weight.

[Valtiel]

Honestly I think there is a really REALLY easy solution to this. But a cap on driver loft. A meaningful chunk of Bryson's distance is coming from the fact he has learned to accurately hit way up on a 5.5* driver which creates high launch and low spin. But a cap on PGA tour driver loft at say, 7.5*-8*, done. That would immediately address the issue while impacting virtually no one else. It would probably shave 20 yards off of Bryson's drives due impacting his launch conditions (more spin for the same launch).

[chigolfer1]

Which is bizarre to me in the sense of what we're saying. Let's "punish" the one guy that has done something better than everyone else.

[Valtiel]

Yeah, agreed. He has gained the skill to do what he is doing and I agree that it is unfair single him out. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Bryson's hypothetical continued success pushes a younger generation to harness the performance of an extremely low lofted driver accurately. Should that happen and find its way on tour in lets say, 5-10 years, everyone would be saying that they should have put a cap on driver loft back when only one guy was doing it.

[chigolfer1]

GIven all the technology now, I don't understand how Bryson got this far out in front of everyone on this. Especially given the long drivers use this same logic, don't they? Is it just a matter of PGA players being too conservative and thinking, OMG, I can't do that and keep the ball on the planet?

I don't want to take away from BD's talent but I have to believe he's not that far out in front of everyone in some particular physical aspect and/or swing technique. Or, is he?

[Valtiel]

He is in a sense because of how he is doing it. Take Sergio and Cameron Champ for example. Both guys that hit down on their driver for control reasons that could gain yardage via more optimized launch conditions if they changed. Both have tried and determined it was too detrimental to accuracy/consistency. Bryson, love him or hate him, has had the balls to make big changes to create the most optimum possible launch conditions for distance. And honestly, it has been a long time coming. A vast majority of PGA tour driver swings are compromises from a distance perspective. Most people aren't hitting 5* up on it like Rory because it is such a different swing from the rest of the bag, and that is a problem for most. So it was really only a matter of time before someone said "screw it, I am going to invest the time in optimizing this" like Bryson has. But that would not be as possible without a very low lofted driver.

[PowderedToastMan]

No one will argue more than me that what Bryson has done is incredible, and the skill and work it has taken is off the charts...

But you shouldn’t be able to hit a driver at 135 mph clubhead speed off the heel and still hit fairways with 190 mph+ ballspeed. He did that at least once that I saw on Sunday of his most recent win.

You make the driver smaller in size and it essentially takes away his strategy of swinging all out. He’s not peppering the exact middle of the driver every time right now, and that’s the issue.

[pacifictour]

First. I understand that the reason for distance growth to the ruling bodies is not the only parameter they’re worried about

 

but it is funny how many that are pro roll back are upset at a guy that put in some serious work on changes to his own athleticism and are screaming it’s the equipment!! Not all so not trying to troll anyone

but in many ways Bryson has shown how much athleticism and training are impacting this Debate, not just the ball, titanium, optimizing, shafts ,agronomy etc

[Valtiel]

How much off the heel is he really catching it though? I get your point, but when someone like Bryson says "Ahh, heeled it", that could easily mean it is one or two dimples heel side, not some hacker heel slice.

[PowderedToastMan]

Enough that when they play it in slow motion, it’s clearly off the heel. I’ll see if I can find it on the YouTube...

[LeoLeo99]

This ain't 1980. And forgiveness technology is a real thing. He's learned to use it. I was just off the tee on a par when Bryson teed off. I swear he toed an 8 iron. Right side of the green with a little draw. 20 feet from the hole. 2 putt par and on to the next hole like a boss.

[PowderedToastMan]

You’re proving my exact point. Forgiveness technology has more limits at 280cc’s when you’re swinging 135 mph.

[NoTalentLefty]

 

 

[ChrisL52188]

Let's all play the clubs that Jack Nicklaus of 1972 used... Then you will really see a huge difference in skill. I believe Tiger Woods would certainly be on top. A butter knife one iron...

[jordan2240]

Until BD starts winning the majority of tournaments he's in, I wouldn't change a thing. He can likely only keep this up for a short time before his body starts to say 'screw this,' like Tiger's did.

[chigolfer1]

Even if he does, why does he have to be "punished." That's like saying Michael Jordan can only take 10 shots a game, or something like that. (that's an analogy, not saying BD is MJ...yet ;-) )

[bscinstnct]

 

MJ?!

 

BD not even Kelly Tripucka yet ; )

 

 

 

[anythingfinite]

I agree with putting hazards in driving areas. Iconic courses are updated all the time. Just look at the length of credited architects at Pebble.

The one thing I would add that hasn't been said is to bring up the idea of "tournament only courses." We have the network already with the TPC system, but most of them are snoozefests from a design standpoint. If we gotta build 8500yd monsters, lets do it and put them in the TPC system which only hosts PGA Tour events. You and I don't get to play pick up games at Fenway, MSG, or Solider Field...golf will be just fine in this same vein.

The iconic courses are iconic because they are iconic, not because we see them every year on TV.

[wobgon]

So what do we talk about if BD misses the next three cuts?

[Valtiel]

Probably about how he needs to go back to Butch.

[Drainey15]

i don’t even like Bryson but I find myself rooting for him just bc so many people on the internet will lose sleep over it.