Taking the players word......

[Titleist99]

Glad we're back to taking the players word,,,,,,Jon Rahm said he did not see the ball move and that should be the end of it,,,,,,Glad that the posters aren't posting on this board calling him a cheater,,,,,,,

I think that the two shot penalty is ridiculous though....do you think this ruling will come back to haunt the rules committee on the PGATOUR?

[disco111]

I think they re-open Pandora's box again. They allowed this one, so everyone after this, unless they tell the camera crew to back off, would be fair play...........

[chigolfer1]

Probably discussed but it sure looked like Finau's ball moved in the greenside rough Friday or Saturday (can't remember which day). Here's the thing. Is it next to impossible to get your club anywhere near the ball in that sort of rough without it technically oscillating it's just now we can see it with these cameras? In other words, the ball has been "oscilatting" like that for a century but now we can just see it.

[Titleist99]

Agreed......If camera's were on all the players, every one of them would receive two shot penalties ...

[Titleist99]

It's going to happen during a close competition again, then there will be chaos....

[BeerPerHole]

My DVR cut off right after they showed that in the coverage - Jon's ball moving at address. I, honestly, didn't see anything to that clip. But, was curious how it turned out. I think it was getting into ridiculous mode. Maybe 0.1" wiggle, in very deep rough...(?) It reminded me of the Mark O'Meara controversy that must have been about 18 years ago. Somebody said they saw him mark his ball and place the ball closer to the hole when picking up the mark. They provided photographic proof. They showed the photographs...which showed nothing of any substance. Similar. In non-zoomed-in shots you CAN see players mashing the grass, etc.

[One Putter]

The ball moved. Camera just happened to have a perfect angle.

[Titleist99]

If Jon Rahm saw the ball move, do he simply put it back?

[klebs01]

He’s a cheater. Should be suspended or kicked off the tour.

[Lobby]

It's time for the TV cameras to stop these closeup shots of players' golf balls. It's as if they're looking to make drama.

Rahm said he didn't see the ball move. I saw his interview. His face showed no dishonesty.

Patrick Reed is a cheater. I mean, how could he not see he was improving his lie?

Comparing Rahm to Reed is nonsense

[Titleist99]

Well, they both said they didn't see it. Until I become a mind reader and pass judgement, I'll take both guys word for it. I will continue to always take the touring pros word for it. I will not relitigate the Reed incident though....

[Potatohead]

 

If you cause the ball to move, you are supposed to replace it, and it's a one stroke penalty.

If you don't deal with it correctly, the ramifications actually changed somewhat recently. I recall back in about 1997 or so Davis Love was on the 17th green at Sawgrass at The Players and hit the ball with his practice stroke. He proceeded to play the ball from the new position, and was eventually DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard. He had finished fourth in the tournament if I remember correctly.

[golfgirlrobin]

I was taught to hover the club above the ball in these situations to avoid this exact outcome. Not sure when this changed, probably around the time it became ok to drop the club behind the ball half a dozen times before taking your stance.

To be clear, I don’t think Rahm saw the ball move, but I think that if you’re going to repeatedly place the club behind the ball, that you’re assuming the risk that it might.

[Smada962]

Guys have always done that unfortunately. Gary Player was notorious for that, and Seve also. The problem with hovering your club when you are playing rough that is that high is your club is then hovering well above the ball.

[dalehead]

The ball moved. Rahm claimed he didn’t see it. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Not liking a player is not sufficient reason to jump to the conclusion that he is a lier and a cheater. The correct ruling was made. The correct penalty was assessed. Time to move on.

[tkwilliamson22]

And all the announcers were in agreement that the lie didn't improve as a result. I think this one doesn't matter as much because he won regardless. It becomes a whole other issue when it impacts a result i.e DJ at 2010 PGA. I know they are different rules but the principal remains the same. Rahm didn't see it move and hit his shot, often times you're not looking at the ball when picking a target, and at the end of the day he still hit an amazing shot. I think PGA and R&A need to take a look at the practicality of some of the rules and use judgement. Patrick Reed at the Hero challenge was clearly a violation and improved his lie, and a no brainer penalty to assess. Rahm's ball moving one dimple as he addresses the ball is a little ridiculous.

[widow-maker]

They may want to revisit the rule. Two strokes is pretty damaging for a ball that barely moved and really didn't make the shot any different. Either tell the players to stop grounding their clubs in the long rough because it's going to be monitored closely or allow that minor movement that doesn't improve the lie. We all know what they're doing by grounding the club behind the ball. Either enforce it on everyone or change the rule. It's like the old ball mark rule where everyone was claiming old ball mark but were really fixing spike marks. Clean it up.

[bscinstnct]

They may want to actually start enforcing that you can’t improve your lie by pretending you are “just” setting up behind the ball while you ground the club like 9 times right behind the ball and obviously improve your lie.

 

Hows that?

 

; )

[bscinstnct]

 

Lol, I didn’t see yours and posted the same thing.

Exactly, they are very slick about it but it’s so obvious what they are up to.

[OrangeGravy]

And they call it a game of integrity

[Jobu]

Liar! Who grounds the club and pads the grass directly behind the ball without looking at the ball? He wasn't the only golfer improving his lie on Sunday either. Take his word? Just like Bryson... you can't take his word for the OB ball touching the course.

[karl1111]

Pisses me off seeing almost all of them do it. Especially when they set up to hit a wood or hybrid in the rough and just happen to "change their mind" last minute to hit an iron instead. Obvious cheating that's not enforced.

[smashdn]

This is a pretty basic and fundamental golf rule really though. I don't think anyone should need to be told. If you move the ball, for any reason, it is a stroke and you have to replace it. If you need to tell them not to do something that could result in a stroke penalty they might be a lost cause. Theoretically they are supposed to be policing themselves. Also, kind of fundamental to the spirit of the rules and games is that you impose the penalties upon yourself when you break the rule. If you play any amount of time in bermuda or zoysia rough you know the ball can perch up in it and if you sole the club it will cause the ball to fall and move. Same deal in tall rough too I guess. Don't move the ball.

I'm not 100% sure what you are referring to when you say, "We all know what they are doing..." but I think you are meaning we know they are attempting to improve their lie somewhat and their ability to get a club on the back of the ball by grounding/soling the club and smashing down the grass. If that is the case then I agree that , yes, the PGA Tour needs to issue a super secret memo or (probably a better approach) verbally at a player's meeting and just have a come-to-Jesus speech about it. Basically, "We know what you are doing. It is against the rules. We don't like fielding the calls and dealing with the crap storm that occurs because of it. If you continue to do it you will be fined and embarrassed publicly" Being labelled as a repeat cheater should be enough. It should "hurt their brand."

[freowho]

It seems common that they pad down the grass behind the ball. Does make a difference. Hard to police for the whole tournament though.

[DavePelz4]

There were 2 different visual perspectives which is why Rahm might not have seen the ball move. His view was straight down and the TM logo was on the side which is why he might not have seen it yet the camera, with a different perspective, did see it.

[Titleist99]

And that there in a nut shell is why you take the players word. The player is looking straight down or to the front and looking at his landing spot.....the camera man is focused on another angle.

[mwkbmw]

When someone says, "It barely moved and did not change his lie", etc., they are introducing subjectivity into the equation. At what point is, "too much"? If the ball moves AT ALL, it is no longer resting in it's original position and the player is not playing it, "as it lies", in accordance with the most fundamental rule of golf.

Also, I cannot fathom any player at any level grounding their club within an inch or so of the ball without looking at it. These guys are good, but not THAT good.

[davep043]

"At what point is, "too much"? If the ball moves AT ALL, it is no longer resting in it's original position"

Too much is when the movement is great enough that it should be reasonably visible to the naked eye. When I've watched the video, it looks like the ball rotated by about the height of the Taylormade label, maybe 1/8" or so. I think that's enough to qualify, I think the decision was right. But if the movement was half as much, I'd really think twice about whether the movement was enough to be visible, whether it should have been penalized.

I'm with you, I don't want any official to have to evaluate whether the player got an advantage by moving the ball. I don't have a problem with making a judgement about whether it was reasonably visible without telephoto lenses and slo-mo video.

[Guest]

I never like the close up of any shot from the rough. There are a lot of shots where the ball appears to move up and down as the player grounds the club, obviously from the cushion of roots and grass under the ball But it never really changes position. This one seemed to move And a lot of the time the player is not looking down. They may be focused on where they want to land it, the pin, etc.

I think this was a good chance for PGA tour to use the 'didn't gain an advantage' to take a stance on it. By penalizing it, they've opened up a can of worms.

To me the #1 thing these guys do wrong is dropping too far up on hazards. That's where TV can often help - pro tracers, overhead angles, etc. To me a lot of them always assume it crossed as far up as imaginable. And it's often to "gain an advantage". There have been numerous instances of this. That's the kind of stuff that can really effect a score. Not a ball shifting 1/4 inch.

[jonsnow]

You shouldn't have to tell a professional golfer to stop grounding their club in long rough because the ball might move just like you shouldn't have to tell a professional golfer to read the local rules placed in their locker at the beginning of the week so they know what is & isn't considered a bunker.