Taking the players word......

[widow-maker]

And yet a large majority of them do it. So, the Tour needs to deal with it and get it sorted. And, if it's going to be a penalty on Sunday, it needs to be a penalty on Thursday. They're going to have to call a fair number of them to get the players attention that grounding the club for a better lie isn't going to be tolerated anymore.

[Dpavs]

Bingo... you read my mind exactly. Also it was clear from the video that he grounded the club in at least two different positions behind the ball which only increased the likelihood the ball would end up moving.

[DavePelz4]

This has to be one of the situations where the pros take liberties by bringing 2 clubs into the rough. We all know what they're going to and it's sad to see someone at that level try and game the situation.

[OrangeGravy]

My favorite is when they're clearly within wedge distance and stand there with a FW tamping down the grass as if they're contemplating the old fairway metal bump and run from 30yds

[golfandfishing]

I don’t understand the point from IBF about “not improving the lie”. It doesn’t have to be improved, if a guy drops a ball down his pants leg and it ends up in deep sh.., plays it and then finds his original in the first cut further up is that ok? He didn’t improve his lie or situation, but clearly broke a rule. The ball moved, he was rightly penalized, I don’t understand the hand wringing?

 

PS - the ball moved a tiny bit and he holed the shot. How can anyone say it didn’t affect the outcome? An 1/8 inch either way and that ball maybe/likely lips out or hits the flagstick and hops out. A few extra blades of grass between the club face maybe means the ball stops short of the hole, a few less and maybe too much speed to take the break and go in.

[bscinstnct]

Can someone explain this. It looks like it says you can actually improve your lie by grounding your club behind the ball but only to the extent that resting the weight of the club behind the ball imprives the lie. Or do I have this wrong, lol

 

Rule 8 - Interpretations

[widow-maker]

I think Rahm did more than set the club down lightly. He tapped it down 4 or 5 times. I don't have a problem if they change the rule and make it uniform. But for Rahm to be penalized when there were a bunch of other players do the same thing the whole Tournament doesn't seem right. Everybody should be abiding by the same set of rules and getting caught by a slow motion camera shouldn't be a determining factor. Either enforce the rules they have or change them to fit how they're actually doing it.

[RobertPaulson]

LOL - 2 strokes is too much? What rules infractions are not two strokes?

[smashdn]

The players are supposed to enforce the penalties for breaking the rules against themselves. The players are responsible for playing by the rules. The guys giving rulings interpret rules questions on the course.

 

There is no one save for the players themselves responsible for "enforcing the rules."

[bscinstnct]

 

Forget about Rahm, my point was how the rule is worded.

 

It seems to say that you *can improve your lie to the extent that placing the *full weight of the club head/shaft pushes down the grass.

 

I didn’t even know you could do that.

[davep043]

It helps to read the actual rules, sometimes we learn stuff. I know I do. For this particular one, you don't need the Interpretations, the Rule itself says:

"In preparing for or making a stroke, a player may take any of these actions and there is no penalty even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke:

(4) Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball."

For Rahm, his club did go up and down a few times, but we can't tell from that angle whether he tamped down a significant area of rough behind the ball, or simply went up and down gently in the same place. Rules infractions that can be corrected before a stroke is made are generally a single stroke penalty. If Rahm had noticed that the ball had moved slightly, and replaced it in its original position before taking his shot, the penalty would have been one stroke.

 

[bscinstnct]

 

I read the rule. In fact, if you look at my post, I posted the rule. Here is is again below and if you read it you will see that it seems to further define beyond the word “lightly” and specify that you *can improve your lie to the extent that placing the *full weight of the club head/shaft pushes down the grass.

 

So, to me, placing a wedge behind the ball and letting the full weight rest there would seem to be more than “grounding lightly”.

 

But the rule seems to say that’s totally fine, you don’t need to “hover” lightly and just barely touch the grass. Go ahead and let the full weight of the club sit behind the ball and if it improves you lie, that’s fine.

 

Did you know that? Here it is...

 

[LeoLeo99]

It takes a bit of skill to do what they do. To ground the club and mash the grass down but not move the ball. The few times I've tried to take the tour address my ball moved. I just hover now. Maybe I need a lesson.

[davep043]

That's Interpretation 1 on Rule 8.1b. That clarifies and expands on the rule itself. That is not the actual Rule.

[chigolfer1]

Well wouldn't the clarification of what the rule allows essentially be the rule?

[tw_focus]

If he wasn't watching the ball at the exact moment the wobble took place (easily possible, he might have been looking at the target at the time) then Rahm's statement was truthful.

[bscinstnct]

 

 

Did you know that you were allowed to place your wedge behind your ball, let the *full weight of the club/shaft sit into the grass, and improve your lie, and this was allowed by the rules of golf?

 

My question is if you were aware of this or not. I was not, and I imagine it’s new info to many.

[chigolfer1]

I'd agree that based on some of the comments in here - not necessarily the specific poster you're responding to - many didn't. As a high handicap guy, it's not like I had much reason to think about it either way but, based what I was reading in here initiallly, I would have guessed it wasn't' allowed.

[davep043]

I guess to me it goes to how a person tries to find answers. My personal habit is to look at Definitions first, then at the Rules, then at the Interpretations, and last at the Clarifications. Each is a separate portion of the Rules as a whole. Most times I can find the answer I need either in the Definitions or in the Rules, without taking additional steps. I prefer to identify where I find my answer so others can find the same thing easily. I've learned this method largely from much more knowledgeable folks than myself in this and other golf forums. So the answer to your question is YES, the Interpretations are a part of the Rules, but the simplest answer is most easily found in the basic rules, without going the additional step to the Interpretations.

[bscinstnct]

 

Exactly. Call it a “clarification” or whatever you like but

 

It amounts to a massive and seemingly unknown loophole in the age old adage and universal principle of the game,

 

“play it as it lies”

 

How many of us have, for decades, walked on egg shells around a ball in the rough, being so gentle so as to not disturb those blades of grass too much, lest we incur the wrath of the golf gods.

 

Meanwhile, you can just plop your wedge down behind the ball. And improve your lie.

 

And it’s legal!!!

[davep043]

Yes, I was previously aware that this was allowed. But to your subsequent post, I'm still careful not to "just plop my wedge down", because I don't want to take a risk of causing the ball to move. You still need to be pretty careful.

 

[Dpavs]

So is the lesson here to always line up and carefully ground a driver in front of and behind a ball in the rough before simply whipping out that wedge?

[bscinstnct]

 

True, I thought I was being a bit cavalier, nonetheless, the fact that you can let the full weight of you wedge rest behind the ball *and legally improve your lie in the process is news to me and many.

[golfandfishing]

Drivers hardly weigh anything. It’s the weight of the club, not the weight of the club plus some meathead pressing down on it.

[chigolfer1]

But I'd also say that if you couldn't do that, aren't you practically making it a penalty like some of the posters said they almost treat it by hovering the club?

[Smada962]

I feel like grounding the club behind the ball is going to make a worse lie as often as it may potentially improve it. I played in some long rough last weekend and I was making sure not to ground the club because each time I did the ball wanted to nestle down even further. I don't think it creates this huge advantage that so many people assume it does.

[BIG STU]

The exact way I was taught---- And in this instance camera angle is everything. The camera had a worm's eye view so to speak with high definition. Jon is what 6 feet tall and at a different angle than the camera was and I will concur he never saw the ball move. But yeah Robin you nailed it If I even think the ball will move I will hover the club like in a hazard

[KirkNo-yes]

that was Jarmo Sandelin who accused him and literally he set the ball down like 1/16th closer to the hole and had no way of knowing he did because the ball still "hung" over the coin from the top down view.

[oikos1]

Great find Basic. It gets even more interesting as how does one define "lightly". I mean, a guy who swings a 32 oz framing hammer all day verses say a jeweler, they may have two completely and what would appear to be legal definitions of "lightly".

Gotta love golf rules.

[johnseg]

I care more about the water hazard crossing point. Those guys stretch that one more than any other.